J.D. Davis denied knowledge of the Astros' scheme. Here is a video...
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Last: 4 yr ago by 03_Aggie
Heard it easily without headphones.
His Astros batting average leads me to believe he did not receive the memo about the garbage can.
odd how the Astros as an offense were overall better on the road than they were at home that year.DallasAg 94 said:Home: .290Harry Dunne said:
His Astros batting average leads me to believe he did not receive the memo about the garbage can.
Away: .161
2017 splits
an example from a recent SI article.
"In what was categorized by the Commissioner's Office as a "player-driven and player-executed" sign-stealing scheme, Altuve was less effective in games at Minute Maid Park, compared to contests on the road. In 296 at bats (over 78 games) the second baseman hit .311 with 52 strike outs -- in 294 at bats away from Houston (75 games played) Altuve hit .381 with 20 fewer punch outs.
If Altuve was one of the players to have participated in this sign-stealing scheme, knowing which pitches were coming ahead of time in contests played at Minute Maid Park, then why was he a far better hitter on the road? At first glance, you'd think a home field advantage, even without cheating, would lead to superior production -- in games at Yankee Stadium in 2017, Judge added almost 60 points to his season batting average and crushed 13 more home runs."
https://www.si.com/mlb/yankees/news/judge-altuve-2017-mvp-sign-stealing
And Shoeless Joe Jackson was banned from baseball even though he dominated in the World Series that year. Lots at play here. It's baseball. Between talent, analysis, and cheating, it's a crazy situation.tjholley16 said:odd how the Astros as an offense were overall better on the road than they were at home that year.DallasAg 94 said:Home: .290Harry Dunne said:
His Astros batting average leads me to believe he did not receive the memo about the garbage can.
Away: .161
2017 splits
an example from a recent SI article.
"In what was categorized by the Commissioner's Office as a "player-driven and player-executed" sign-stealing scheme, Altuve was less effective in games at Minute Maid Park, compared to contests on the road. In 296 at bats (over 78 games) the second baseman hit .311 with 52 strike outs -- in 294 at bats away from Houston (75 games played) Altuve hit .381 with 20 fewer punch outs.
If Altuve was one of the players to have participated in this sign-stealing scheme, knowing which pitches were coming ahead of time in contests played at Minute Maid Park, then why was he a far better hitter on the road? At first glance, you'd think a home field advantage, even without cheating, would lead to superior production -- in games at Yankee Stadium in 2017, Judge added almost 60 points to his season batting average and crushed 13 more home runs."
https://www.si.com/mlb/yankees/news/judge-altuve-2017-mvp-sign-stealing
I think it's similar to the SMU death penalty. Everybody was pretty much cheating, SMU was doing more than everybody else and got busted. Other teams got a slap on the wrist compared to them but we remember SMU the most.
J.D. Davis was a rookie making the major league minimum.
he's going to do what he's told...and like it
he's going to do what he's told...and like it
That's a perfect example. They were not a blue-blood and they kept cheating egregiously even after being told to stop - both were factors in an overly harsh penalty.tjholley16 said:
I think it's similar to the SMU death penalty. Everybody was pretty much cheating, SMU was doing more than everybody else and got busted. Other teams got a slap on the wrist compared to them but we remember SMU the most.
DallasAg 94 said:So, are you asserting that the Astros didn't cheat or didn't benefit from cheating?tjholley16 said:odd how the Astros as an offense were overall better on the road than they were at home that year.DallasAg 94 said:Home: .290Harry Dunne said:
His Astros batting average leads me to believe he did not receive the memo about the garbage can.
Away: .161
2017 splits
an example from a recent SI article.
"In what was categorized by the Commissioner's Office as a "player-driven and player-executed" sign-stealing scheme, Altuve was less effective in games at Minute Maid Park, compared to contests on the road. In 296 at bats (over 78 games) the second baseman hit .311 with 52 strike outs -- in 294 at bats away from Houston (75 games played) Altuve hit .381 with 20 fewer punch outs.
If Altuve was one of the players to have participated in this sign-stealing scheme, knowing which pitches were coming ahead of time in contests played at Minute Maid Park, then why was he a far better hitter on the road? At first glance, you'd think a home field advantage, even without cheating, would lead to superior production -- in games at Yankee Stadium in 2017, Judge added almost 60 points to his season batting average and crushed 13 more home runs."
https://www.si.com/mlb/yankees/news/judge-altuve-2017-mvp-sign-stealing
See, I'm guessing you may not know how cheating works. Cheating only benefits you when cheating changes the outcome.
Considering there is proof that they did, I'm not denying it. However I'd bet a lot of money that about 10 other teams did similar things. Doesn't excuse it. I wish mLB would investigate every team and report their findings. They won't though
So if altuve hits .290 this year he definitely cheated?
It's such an odd logic-shift to take the stance of "the Astros were cheating but I'm sure other teams were doing it too" but then turnaround and take the stance of "some Astros players were cheating but I'm sure Altuve wasn't one of them".
99.99% chance Altuve was cheating. It's nearly impossible that he wasn't. This isn't like steroids where it was done privately and some might opt not to do it.
He was on a team with other MVP-level talents and yet he still became the league MVP while not using the huge advantage they had? It's the same reason anyone with a functioning logic center knew Lance Armstrong was cheating when all his main competitors were found to be doping. Lance was beating them by a mile even while he was testing clean, so that meant he was either also cheating or had superpowers. I'm not implying that Altuve is secretly a terrible person like Armstrong, but when someone appears to be a "great guy" everyone wants him to be innocent. Just like people still argue Biggio & Bagwell didn't use steroids. I guess there's a very small chance they didn't, but it's highly unlikely.
Secondly, if he had somehow abstained from cheating it would have come out in the investigation, like AJ breaking the monitors. People would have come out and said that Altuve demanded no one bang the trashcan for him.
Last of all, eff Mike Fiers. I didn't hear him complaining about the trash cans while he was getting run support and setting himself up to make tens of millions for the rest of his career by being on that team. I haven't read a ton about it TBH, is he getting ripped for this at all?
He was on a team with other MVP-level talents and yet he still became the league MVP while not using the huge advantage they had? It's the same reason anyone with a functioning logic center knew Lance Armstrong was cheating when all his main competitors were found to be doping. Lance was beating them by a mile even while he was testing clean, so that meant he was either also cheating or had superpowers. I'm not implying that Altuve is secretly a terrible person like Armstrong, but when someone appears to be a "great guy" everyone wants him to be innocent. Just like people still argue Biggio & Bagwell didn't use steroids. I guess there's a very small chance they didn't, but it's highly unlikely.
Secondly, if he had somehow abstained from cheating it would have come out in the investigation, like AJ breaking the monitors. People would have come out and said that Altuve demanded no one bang the trashcan for him.
Last of all, eff Mike Fiers. I didn't hear him complaining about the trash cans while he was getting run support and setting himself up to make tens of millions for the rest of his career by being on that team. I haven't read a ton about it TBH, is he getting ripped for this at all?
Proposition Joe said:
It's such an odd logic-shift to take the stance of "the Astros were cheating but I'm sure other teams were doing it too" but then turnaround and take the stance of "some Astros players were cheating but I'm sure Altuve wasn't one of them".
I'm assuming all astros players did it. However I feel like many of them will prove this year and proved last year that they don't need to steal signs to be good. Altuve, bregman, Correa, Alvarez and springer will all still have great seasons in 2020
Won't know the extent of other team cheating unless and until they are investigated. That's how we know the extent of the Astros. A former playing made an allegation and kicked the whole investigation off. There have been allegations flying around about several teams, even league sources say the suspect as many as 8-10 teams were using technology to cheat. Is MLB going to investigate them as thoroughly as they did the Astros?? If MLB doesn't, that is grossly unfair - basically they'd be admitting that they made the Astros the scape goat.
DallasAg 94 said:Are you projection, speculating, or have proof?tjholley16 said:Considering there is proof that they did, I'm not denying it. However I'd bet a lot of money that about 10 other teams did similar things. Doesn't excuse it. I wish mLB would investigate every team and report their findings. They won't thoughDallasAg 94 said:
So, are you asserting that the Astros didn't cheat or didn't benefit from cheating?
See, I'm guessing you may not know how cheating works. Cheating only benefits you when cheating changes the outcome.
Which 10?
Were they cheating in general, or similar to Astros?
The Astros are the only team I've ever heard caught with an employee using a cell phone to video an opponents dugout during the game.
Without breaking out H/A, the Astros hit .276 with the bases empty, .290 with runners on and .294 when RISP.
Cheating by stealing signs helps with a RISP more than it does with the bases empty.
One split particularly weird is, their worst hitting scenario was with 2Out, runner only on 2B. They hit .217.
In almost every situation with a runner on 3rd, they hit over .300, with 2 exceptions: 0out Runner only on 3rd. 1Out runner on 2nd & 3rd.
0Outs:
- - 3: .250 <- This jumps to .349 with 1 out and then .322 with 2Outs
1 - 3: .500
- 2 3: .304
1 2 3: .350
1Outs:
- - 3: .349
1 - 3: ..392
- 2 3: .278
1 2 3: .356
2Outs:
- - 3 : .322
1 - 3 : .306
- 2 3 :.300
1 2 3 : .370
With nobody out, it would seem likely you wouldn't need to cheat, because you can wait until after you have an out, if he doesn't score.
None of those stats means anything because there is no real context. Once the Astros were far enough ahead of the league, there was no need to cheat during the season. They were up 16.0 Games on July 4th.
They had a really good team, and they may not have had to cheat. But they did. And they got caught.
We'll find out real quick in 2020, if Altuve was cheating.
Are you saying that the team average went down in all situations with 2nd base occupied? Isn't the implication obvious? And isn't that the best evidence that other teams weren't cheating to that extent? Cheating teams would have been paranoid and mixed their pitch signals even with 2nd base empty.
DallasAg 94 said:Are you projection, speculating, or have proof?tjholley16 said:Considering there is proof that they did, I'm not denying it. However I'd bet a lot of money that about 10 other teams did similar things. Doesn't excuse it. I wish mLB would investigate every team and report their findings. They won't thoughDallasAg 94 said:
So, are you asserting that the Astros didn't cheat or didn't benefit from cheating?
See, I'm guessing you may not know how cheating works. Cheating only benefits you when cheating changes the outcome.
Which 10?
Were they cheating in general, or similar to Astros?
The Astros are the only team I've ever heard caught with an employee using a cell phone to video an opponents dugout during the game.
Without breaking out H/A, the Astros hit .276 with the bases empty, .290 with runners on and .294 when RISP.
Cheating by stealing signs helps with a RISP more than it does with the bases empty.
One split particularly weird is, their worst hitting scenario was with 2Out, runner only on 2B. They hit .217.
In almost every situation with a runner on 3rd, they hit over .300, with 2 exceptions: 0out Runner only on 3rd. 1Out runner on 2nd & 3rd.
0Outs:
- - 3: .250 <- This jumps to .349 with 1 out and then .322 with 2Outs
1 - 3: .500
- 2 3: .304
1 2 3: .350
1Outs:
- - 3: .349
1 - 3: ..392
- 2 3: .278
1 2 3: .356
2Outs:
- - 3 : .322
1 - 3 : .306
- 2 3 :.300
1 2 3 : .370
With nobody out, it would seem likely you wouldn't need to cheat, because you can wait until after you have an out, if he doesn't score.
None of those stats means anything because there is no real context. Once the Astros were far enough ahead of the league, there was no need to cheat during the season. They were up 16.0 Games on July 4th.
They had a really good team, and they may not have had to cheat. But they did. And they got caught.
We'll find out real quick in 2020, if Altuve was cheating.
Altuve has hit all his life. Bregman has hit all his life. Springer has hit all his life. Correa has hit all his life. These guys were successful before MMP, they were successful in the minors. They were successful on the road.
Why did they cheat? Obviously because they felt that it gave them an advantage- same reason the steroid abusers cheated. I contend they didn't need to given their prior success, and their ability to hit on the road... but they obviously thought otherwise. It's what makes me so darn mad about it all, and now we as fans have to put up with this type of selective stats crap..
Altuve will hit again, just like he did before. When that happens, will you get on here and acknowledge it, or just keeping screaming "doesn't matter, cheated" from your steroid-ignoring soapbox?
Spend some time breaking down Juan Gonzalez before and after steroids. Or A-Rod. Or Josh Hamilton. I'll hold my breath.
DallasAg 94 said:I'm not saying that at all. I just found it interesting, when you look at the BAs. It would seem the catcher would mix up the signs more intentionally with a guy on 2B, and if there wasn't... and to hit only .217 with 2O and only a hitter at 2B. That is like .150 below many other scenarios.94chem said:
Are you saying that the team average went down in all situations with 2nd base occupied? Isn't the implication obvious? And isn't that the best evidence that other teams weren't cheating to that extent? Cheating teams would have been paranoid and mixed their pitch signals even with 2nd base empty.
Even paranoid teams would necessarily mix pitches, if nobody was on 2B.
I can assure you that Bregman while on 2B almost always relayed signs to the hitter.
1st signal
Look right for FB
Look left for non-FB
2nd signal
Look right for right side
Look left for left side
IMO, that is gamesmanship. Shame on the Rangers for not mixing up the signals. Watch almost any game the Astros played the Rangers, in which Bregman was on 2B, and it is as blatant as the hitter looking to 3B getting signs.
It wasn't just Bregman, but he was clear and consistent. I found myself disappointed in the Rangers for not doing anything. I bet you can search TA on a Rangers thread to see posts about it.
Agreed on this. Change the signals up, bean the runner at 2B next time he steps into the box... several options.
DallasAg 94 said:Well, we certainly know that A-Rod, McGwire, Sosa, Bonds, Canseco, and Palmeiro never cheated... because they have "hit all their life." And because they ALL denied being involved.Marvin said:
Altuve has hit all his life. Bregman has hit all his life. Springer has hit all his life. Correa has hit all his life. These guys were successful before MMP, they were successful in the minors. They were successful on the road.
Why did they cheat? Obviously because they felt that it gave them an advantage- same reason the steroid abusers cheated. I contend they didn't need to given their prior success, and their ability to hit on the road... but they obviously thought otherwise. It's what makes me so darn mad about it all, and now we as fans have to put up with this type of selective stats crap..
Altuve will hit again, just like he did before. When that happens, will you get on here and acknowledge it, or just keeping screaming "doesn't matter, cheated" from your steroid-ignoring soapbox?
Spend some time breaking down Juan Gonzalez before and after steroids. Or A-Rod. Or Josh Hamilton. I'll hold my breath.
Juan-Do is a different story.
As for my position on steroids... you can look up my historical posts on them, before you start projecting your opinions of my position.
Strike one: Hitting liners vs homers is very different. Slugging was the reason, and they did steroids to benefit (even Astros). A double becomes a homer. A single splits the gap. Batting average might not change much, but OPS can still skyrocket- especially for a player that is prone to K's.
Strike two: The Astros admitted cheating, so not sure I understand your response. Some of our fans denied it, but that's just being obtuse. I hate it happened but acknowledge that it did happen.
DallasAg 94 said:My response was tongue-in-cheek. Everyone knew they were using, regardless of how the professed their innocence. Palmeiro wagging his finger to congress was classic.Marvin said:Strike one: Hitting liners vs homers is very different. Slugging was the reason, and they did steroids to benefit (even Astros). A double becomes a homer. A single splits the gap. Batting average might not change much, but OPS can still skyrocket- especially for a player that is prone to K's.DallasAg 94 said:
Well, we certainly know that A-Rod, McGwire, Sosa, Bonds, Canseco, and Palmeiro never cheated... because they have "hit all their life." And because they ALL denied being involved.
Juan-Do is a different story.
As for my position on steroids... you can look up my historical posts on them, before you start projecting your opinions of my position.
Strike two: The Astros admitted cheating, so not sure I understand your response. Some of our fans denied it, but that's just being obtuse. I hate it happened but acknowledge that it did happen.
I was strongly against the use of PEDs, regardless of team. So much outspoken on this board, that there was a time I caught a lot of slack. I believe even Ken Griffey Jr was using.
The argument many people used was just what it was here... Griffey, A-Rod and Bonds hit great before the Roid-Era, and therefore, like Bagwell and Biggio, can't be implicated just because they had great seasons during the Roid-Era.
There are clean players that missed their opportunity to play MLB because others cheated.
All good points.
Griffey definitely juiced. See Lance Armstrong argument above. So does JJ Watt. People get mad because they don't want their heroes to be cheaters, but its just not realistic to think that someone clean can dominate a league full of cheaters. I don't even know that you could call PED use in the NFL cheating anymore. Anyway, being a "good guy" and cheating aren't mutually exclusive.
What is crazy about the home/away splits is even late into 2017, the Astros were in the top 10 all-time for road game runs. It is a illustrious list with pretty much the 1920s Yankees dominating and I think the minimum was averaging 6 runs per game. Again, if they were so much better on the road, how did the trashcan at home benefit them?
bad_teammate said on 2/10/21:
Just imagine how 1/6 would've played out if DC hadn't had such strict gun laws.
Two people starred his post as of the time of this signature. Those 3 people are allowed to vote in the US.
Just imagine how 1/6 would've played out if DC hadn't had such strict gun laws.
Two people starred his post as of the time of this signature. Those 3 people are allowed to vote in the US.
Although he likely did disapprove to some minimal extent of the methods as he claims, I suspect that Hinch smashed the monitor mostly because he wasn't convinced of its actual efficacy, like a pitcher throwing a tantrum about a ground ball away from the shift. Certainly our numbers at MMP that season and into 2018 were not great.
MLB "cleared the Astros of any wrongdoing" in October of 2018 for the dugout filming incidents. You also don't really film the dugout to steal signs (not if you expect to get anything out of it anyway), you film the third base coach and the catcher. Like the Taubman thing at Yankee Stadium, filming the dugout was likely some idiotic misguided attempt to catch the other team stealing signs.
I'm not saying that MLB teams' signs are as simplistic as the signs these guys were testing their system on (so therefore I can't state whether this system has value at the MLB level), but I am not sure it's correct to say there is no way to steal signs by use of a cell phone. As for filming the dugout vs 3rd base coach, there are definitely signals funneled from the dugout but I assume it varies from team to team as to the level of involvement from the dugout.
What? I did not say "there is no way to steal signs with a cell phone" at all. I said that you dont steal signs by filming the opposing dugout. This guy in the video is filming the third base coach.Fenrir said:
I'm not saying that MLB teams' signs are as simplistic as the signs these guys were testing their system on (so therefore I can't state whether this system has value at the MLB level), but I am not sure it's correct to say there is no way to steal signs by use of a cell phone.
They cheated all season and postseason 2017, were warned to stop, continued to cheat, and got caught. To try and legitimize their title by discounting the effectiveness of their cheating is asinine.
I've asked before and I'll ask it again... why would they persist in their cheating if it didn't help, even after being warned? That would be monumentally stupid.
I've asked before and I'll ask it again... why would they persist in their cheating if it didn't help, even after being warned? That would be monumentally stupid.
DallasAg 94 said:Ok... we'll see how they do in 2020...JJxvi said:
MLB "cleared the Astros of any wrongdoing" in October of 2018 for the dugout filming incidents. You also don't really film the dugout to steal signs (not if you expect to get anything out of it anyway), you film the third base coach and the catcher. Like the Taubman thing at Yankee Stadium, filming the dugout was likely some idiotic misguided attempt to catch the other team stealing signs.
Splits:
2019:
Home: 74.1%
Road: 58.0%
2018:
Home: 56.8%
Road: 70.4%
2017:
Home: 59.3%
Road: 65.4%
2016:
Home: 53.1%
Road: 50.6%
2015:
Home: 65.4%
Road: 40.7%
I bet they are closer to 45% winning on the road, in 2020.
There are LOTS of reasons to pickup signs from the dugout. Most teams (not all) have the pitches sent in by the manager in the dugout. If you get the sign when the catcher gets the sign... you have an equal opportunity to relay to your hitter. In addition, the manager likely sets up location, as well.
You think managers are calling pitch selection and pitch location during a game