Mr.Bond said:
Then it's still horse **** and them just trying to save face dim doing this should not take away any of the punishment they have coming to them
It will be a longer suspension at minimum to an outright ineligiblity at most.
Mr.Bond said:
Then it's still horse **** and them just trying to save face dim doing this should not take away any of the punishment they have coming to them
I'd be 110% on board with Mejdal as GM and Espada as Manager. That'd be making the most of our situation.Farmer1906 said:
Wonder if Sig Mejdal wants a promotion to GM? He's the NASA guy who left with Mike Elias to Baltimore.
Farmer1906 said:
Espada would be my pick.
Quote:
It's a slippery slope
Why don't we start with this time-honored principle: Once something happens, it's even tough for David Copperfield let alone Rob Manfred to make it un-happen.
Ask yourself this: If you were going to make a ruling that what the Astros did in 2017 shouldn't count, then what exactly about it shouldn't count?
Would just the results of that World Series not count? Or other series, too? Would the Dodgers then be called the winners of that World Series? Or would that be a World Series that nobody won?
What about the regular season? Would those games count? Would those Astros wins count? Or would they forfeit every one of those 101 games they won? If they did, would those victories then be assigned to the teams they played? Then what would you do about the standings?
OK, how about the stats compiled in those games? Would you start stripping them, too? Would you take away Jos Altuve's batting title? How about those 204 hits he got? Would they disappear off his Baseball-Reference page, too? Would we then start changing the stats of the pitchers who gave up those hits?
And what would we do about the box scores? They tell the story of the history of this sport, one beautiful game at a time. Would we rule that everything in the Astros' box scores was a lie? Should we even zap those box scores from the record books and the internet?
See the problem here? These things happened. They. All. Happened. All of them! We have witnesses. We have records. We have box scores. We have videos. So once you start messing with what happened, where do you stop? How slippery is that slope? Way too slippery to mess with.
And there's something else here that's complicated: the memories.
Remember what that World Series meant, in that time and place, to all those people in Houston who had just survived a powerful hurricane and found much-needed joy when that World Series parade rolled through their town. What would you tell those people? Could you please stop by our office so we can delete those memories from the hard drive in your brain because we just decided that parade never happened?
Let's just not go there. History unfolded. To step in and try to change it is way too complicated. Attach that asterisk to all of it in your head if you'd like. But that's about it.
Where's the precedent?
If you study Rob Manfred's ruling in this case, everything about it was wrapped in some sort of precedent, based on a history of baseball crimes, punishments and scandals through the years. So where is the precedent for stripping a World Series trophy or pretty much anything else in all those years?
Let's think about the PED era. Barry Bonds got to keep all seven of his MVP trophies. Roger Clemens gave back zero of his Cy Youngs. Manny Ramrez won a batting title, a home run title, an RBI title and a World Series MVP award. Even two PED suspensions didn't cost him any of that.
The PED transgressions of the Bash Brothers didn't cause the 1989 A's to surrender their World Series trophy. Despite what we know about that era now, not one line in the record book has been changed. Not one homer has been un-hit. Not a single game won has been un-won.
But this goes well beyond PEDs. We have indisputable video evidence that Armando Galarraga should have thrown a perfect game back in 2010. We had it moments after one of baseball's best umpires, Jim Joyce, missed the call at first base. We had Joyce himself apologizing that night for getting that call wrong and costing Galarraga his place in history.
But this sport didn't rewrite the script of that game, right? It just meant Galarraga wound up with a slightly different place in history.
Heck, we even know now that the most famous home run in baseball history Bobby Thomson, 1951 was tainted by cheating. But that home run stands. Russ Hodges' epic call of that home run is still just a click and a goosebump away. The Giants won the pennant. The Giants won the pennant. And the Giants have never stopped winning that pennant because there was no precedent then to declare otherwise and there still isn't.
What about the other pro sports?
Remind me again how many wins, honors and trophies the Patriots have given back over in the NFL. Whatever happened in Deflategate, the Patriots still are the proud winners of Super Bowl XLIX. Tom Brady eventually paid a price and missed a few games, true. But nothing that happened in that season or postseason has been voided, obliterated or changed in any way.
And whatever happened in Spygate, the Patriots still made that trip to Super Bowl XLII. They didn't win that game. But I'm pretty sure their AFC Championship trophy was never mailed back to New York.
Or how about the NBA? A referee, Tim Donaghy, admitted to fixing games and went to jail for his crime. But how many of those games he fixed had their results changed? Right. That would be none.
And why is that? Because all of this raises an issue that only a time machine can resolve. How do you know what would have happened if there had been no cheating or no drug-taking or no deflating or no spying? We don't know these things. We can't know these things.
And also how do we know for sure that the other team wasn't doing something? It has been clear, in all of The Athletic's reporting on this issue, that no one believes the Astros were the only team stealing signs via technology. They're just the team that got caught. The Red Sox are now in this investigation pipeline. Who knows how many more teams could get swallowed up in this? How do we know the Astros weren't playing against those very teams when they were banging on those trash cans?
So as we were saying all these slopes are as precarious as slopes can possibly get.
What about amateur sports?
Obviously, the NCAA feels differently about this. Louisville lost its 2013 NCAA basketball title. Southern Cal lost its 2004 national football championship. Reggie Bush had to give back his Heisman Trophy.
And obviously, the International Olympic Committee has gone down a very different road. No need to recap all the failed drug tests and medals stripped. But there is no denying that the IOC has taken exactly the opposite stance on cheating of any kind or at least cheating it was able to detect.
But once upon a time, I recall making that point to a baseball official as we discussed a similar issue. I brought up the NCAA.
"I'm not sure that's a model you want to follow," he said.
There are people in his sport right now, this very week who would disagree with that, though. If the Astros were to be consigned to a place in history alongside Louisville and USC, those people would be extremely cool with that.
But in baseball, history has a different place in the sporting cosmos. The making of history is an integral part of the fabric of baseball. But nowhere in that fabric has anyone ever dared to un-make history. And as we learned again this week, Rob Manfred was not going to be the first.
n_touch said:
No way Crane is that crazy. The team would riot.
bilbobag said:
Two names that I have heard aren't on that odds list.. Will be interesting to see what Crane does.
Whomever he hires, it has to be a no BS guy but I also think someone the fans can get behind more than ever.
Please don't say Ozzie Guillen.bilbobag said:
Two names that I have heard aren't on that odds list.. Will be interesting to see what Crane does.
Whomever he hires, it has to be a no BS guy but I also think someone the fans can get behind more than ever.
Ag_07 said:
Yeah after Espada and Quarturo there's no one on that list I want.
bilbobag said:
Two names that I have heard aren't on that odds list.. Will be interesting to see what Crane does.
Whomever he hires, it has to be a no BS guy but I also think someone the fans can get behind more than ever.
Quote:
MLB docked the Astros their regular first-round selection in this June's draft, which would have been the 30th overall pick, and their regular second-round selection, which before the sanctions was slated to be 67th overall because of the competitive balance round that is sandwiched between the first and second rounds.
This means the Astros' first 2020 draft pick will now come in the competitive balance round that follows the second round, which should fall somewhere in the 70th-75th overall range. That is the draft choice they received as compensation for losing free agent starter Gerrit Cole, who declined their one-year, $17.8 million qualifying offer a month before he signed with the Yankees for nine years and $324 million.
After the comp pick, the Astros' next selection in the 2020 draft will be their regular third-rounder, the final pick of that round, which should fall in the 105th-110th overall range. Almost as detrimental at losing the picks themselves, the Astros also forfeited the bonus pool money attached to their regular first- and second-round picks. Those values have not yet been released by MLB. But for reference, the 30th selection in the 2019 draft came with a slot value of $2.37 million and the 67th pick had a slot value of just less than $1 million.
Because of the forfeitures by the Astros, the first competitive balance round and second-round picks for the rest of the teams will move up by one selection each. Each of the other 29 teams will also have slightly more bonus pool money with which to work than they previously would have.
That will be the case in 2021, as well, when the Astros will again be without their regular first- and second-rounders. Both of those are likely to also be late-round picks given the strength of their 2020 roster. And say next offseason they were to sign a free agent who had declined a qualifying offer from his previous team, the second-round pick they would lose for the signing would push their sign-stealing forfeiture to the second round of the 2022 draft.
It will be at least two to three years before the Astros feel the effects of losing four first- and second-round selections, which means a vast majority of the players culpable in the sign-stealing scheme won't even be impacted by this particular aspect of the punishment. Nor will they feel the $5 million fine Manfred levied against the team.