Besides there are probably 10 analytics guys who know how to find talent better than Luhnow already working with the Astros. It's not like the boss is doing the player analytics.
The true loss is the draft picks, everything else is an obstacle that can be addressed with smart thinking.

So this is all tied to 2017? Didn't the Red Sox get busted in 2017 with Apple watches? What was their punishment? Was such a thorough review done on them at that time?

My concern is the ripple effect of lunhow and hinch as it relates to the players. If they don't agree with cranes move I could see some with no intention of resigning and playing for an owner that didn't back those guys.

the last of the bohemians said:

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Besides there are probably 10 analytics guys who know how to find talent better than Luhnow already working with the Astros. It's not like the boss is doing the player analytics.
The true loss is the draft picks, everything else is an obstacle that can be addressed with smart thinking.

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We will see I guess. My thought is if it was that easy then there would be a lot more parody in the league as all teams would be using it.

Thanks captain obvious.
Had no idea some managers are better than others.

the last of the bohemians said:

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Those throwing Crane under the bus don't seem to realize that MLB came close to taking away the title.

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I've seen this rumor a few places. Do you know where it's sourced?

03_Aggie said:

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So this is all tied to 2017? Didn't the Red Sox get busted in 2017 with Apple watches? What was their punishment? Was such a thorough review done on them at that time?

My concern is the ripple effect of lunhow and hinch as it relates to the players. If they don't agree with cranes move I could see some with no intention of resigning and playing for an owner that didn't back those guys.

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My question to them is what did they think was going to happen when they implemented the scheme, then told every detail that led to their manager and GM getting 1 yr suspensions, loss of 1st and 2nd round draft picks for two years, and a $5M fine?

I know the stereotype is athletes are dumb, but they aren't that dumb.

03_Aggie said:

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the last of the bohemians said:

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Besides there are probably 10 analytics guys who know how to find talent better than Luhnow already working with the Astros. It's not like the boss is doing the player analytics.
The true loss is the draft picks, everything else is an obstacle that can be addressed with smart thinking.

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We will see I guess. My thought is if it was that easy then there would be a lot more parody in the league as all teams would be using it.

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Best Freudian slip ever.

Is Strom expected to remain in staff? Honestly, he's the one I'm most worried about right now.

Deluxe said:

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the last of the bohemians said:

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Those throwing Crane under the bus don't seem to realize that MLB came close to taking away the title.

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I've seen this rumor a few places. Do you know where it's sourced?

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I don't buy it. MLB would've taken care of lunhow and hinch if they thought it truly influenced the WS win.

Beat40 said:

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03_Aggie said:

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So this is all tied to 2017? Didn't the Red Sox get busted in 2017 with Apple watches? What was their punishment? Was such a thorough review done on them at that time?

My concern is the ripple effect of lunhow and hinch as it relates to the players. If they don't agree with cranes move I could see some with no intention of resigning and playing for an owner that didn't back those guys.

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My question to them is what did they think was going to happen when they implemented the scheme, then told every detail that led to their manager and GM getting 1 yr suspensions, loss of 1st and 2nd round draft picks for two years, and a $5M fine?

I know the stereotype is athletes are dumb, but they aren't that dumb.

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I'm guessing they didn't figure Crane would fire them.

03_Aggie said:

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My concern is the ripple effect of lunhow and hinch as it relates to the players. If they don't agree with cranes move I could see some with no intention of resigning and playing for an owner that didn't back those guys.

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I have zero proof, but I feel MLB backed Crane into a corner to where he had to in order to keep the title or to keep players from being punished. I'm sure the players are angry, but I imagine Crane will have a meeting with them and tell them everything.

the last of the bohemians said:

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Thanks captain obvious.
Had no idea some managers are better than others.

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Calling me Capitan obvious? You're the one asserting his loss isn't a big deal based on analytic guys finding players.

How many successful, I meant championship level successful, GMs are out there in all of sports?

Don't get worked up, my bad.
Point is the Astros system is no longer a secret. Too many lower level guys have had to go in and out of organization by now

JCA1 said:

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Based on what the league could actually establish, the penalties seem excessive to me. No indication Luhnow even knew what was going on. Hinch knew and did not approve but didn't do enough to stop it or report it to his superiors. I get that but, man, he was in a tough spot. Middle of a World Series run and basically he had to tell on his players. Guaranteed way to lose the locker room.

Don't like the firings but, right or wrong, they lost their boss $5 mill plus the PR black eye and loss of draft picks. Most lose their jobs when they do that to their employer.

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This is what upsets me the most. I don't blame Crane, necessarily. He reacted to the MLB suspension.

I can understand letting Hinch be the sacrificial lamb because he was aware but didnt do enough to stop it, but getting Lunhow suspended despite zero evidence of knowledge seems extremely unjustified to me.

Had he not been suspended he wouldn't have been fired

the last of the bohemians said:

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Don't get worked up, my bad.
Point is the Astros system is no longer a secret. Too many lower level guys have had to go in and out of organization by now

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I'm a sorry, didn't mean to escalate.

I just think Lunhow was a special GM with vision to make all of that work together.

Guess we're finding out whether we like it or not.

This is the equivalent of steroid era managers getting suspended when the players fail drug test. Crane made a deal with MLB. Don't suspend the players, who the report said were responsible, and I will fire these guys. Players already know about it. Told to keep quiet or they will get suspended too.

the last of the bohemians said:

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Don't get worked up, my bad.
Point is the Astros system is no longer a secret. Too many lower level guys have had to go in and out of organization by now

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If that's the case then why has he been so far ahead of everyone?

DrZ said:

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This is the equivalent of steroid era managers getting suspended when the players fail drug test. Crane made a deal with MLB. Don't suspend the players, who the report said were responsible, and I will fire these guys. Players already know about it. Told to keep quiet or they will get suspended too.

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I have a feeling after 2021 only Altuve, Bregman and Gurriel will be left from the core players.

It really doesn't matter what any of us think. MLB issued a report that is what they think. Unless they released a fake report.

DrZ said:

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Unless they released a fake report.

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You're onto something. This is all fake.

Pahdz said:

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I find it incredibly hard to believe Lunhow had no idea.

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Maybe he did maybe he didn't

The problem is there's no proof that he did.

Further, maybe he let Hinch handle it, who then failed to put an end to it.

Thing is, there's only so much a manager or coach can do to enforce these things or even be aware of cheating has completely ceased. Players ultimately need to be held accountable for their own actions

Are we going to fire our new GM the next time Osuna beats his baby momma or Correa is caught with a needle in his ass?

My guess is that luhnow system had benefits of being first in use but it's been around long enough that elements are entering other team systems.
He had the benefits of a loaded farm system from several years of high drafts that most GMs trying to copy the methods haven't had the luxury with that talent pipeline to build up a team analytically. But I find it impossible to believe that the Astros have maintained the secret sauce, although maybe have created new secret recipes in the last couple years, who knows

What gets me in this whole thing is how the team didn't even try to hide it. I mean yes, they knew it probably wasn't right but my gosh they had a dedicated tv monitor right next to the dugout. People are constantly walking by it I'm sure over the course of a season. Different people in and out of the clubhouse/dugout. You would think if they truly thought they were breaking the rules to such a severe degree they would've been more secretive?

It just doesn't add up to me to justify the punishments handed down for it. Especially if their is proof out there of at least 8 other teams doing something similar.

Coras post game London interview is also very telling. Once again it makes me think that they knew what they were doing was skirting the lines of right/wrong but they didn't think it was some extreme case of cheating.

Either all of that or Alex Cora and Beltran are two serious ****ing idiots.

W said:

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JCA1 said:

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Based on what the league could actually establish, the penalties seem excessive to me. No indication Luhnow even knew what was going on. Hinch knew and did not approve but didn't do enough to stop it or report it to his superiors. I get that but, man, he was in a tough spot. Middle of a World Series run and basically he had to tell on his players. Guaranteed way to lose the locker room.

Don't like the firings but, right or wrong, they lost their boss $5 mill plus the PR black eye and loss of draft picks. Most lose their jobs when they do that to their employer.

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except another Houston GM...Daryl Morey did not.

I think Tillman realized (1) Morey is a good GM and (2) the world of sports is different from the real world.

the China fiasco blew over and the Rockets are back to operating as usual

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Hence the word "most."

I wish they hadn't been fired and don't think the evidence the league compiled warranted their individual punishments. But when you cost your employer what they cost Crane, "most" lose their jobs. Just the way of the world.

Bregxit said:

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DrZ said:

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This is the equivalent of steroid era managers getting suspended when the players fail drug test. Crane made a deal with MLB. Don't suspend the players, who the report said were responsible, and I will fire these guys. Players already know about it. Told to keep quiet or they will get suspended too.

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I have a feeling after 2021 only Altuve, Bregman and Gurriel will be left from the core players.

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yes, it feels like everything depends on Springer.

if he leaves...the flood gates open wide