Thank you for taking the time to do that redline.

Sure

Also worth noting the two anonymous sources stories don't really line up.

One says it was going on into the 2017 playoffs the other days it wasn't.

Take for that what it's worth

The best part of this is watching a tsip defend a Baylor bear on an A&M board over the Rangers indignity of the Astros winning a WS while "cheating".

Wonder how long the mlb investigation will take? If this were the NCAA Altuve would be retired by the time it's over.

Another piece from the Athletic was just posted.

Quote:

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Astros executive asked scouts for help stealing signs and suggested using cameras, email shows

By Ken Rosenthal and Evan Drellich 1h ago
An Astros front-office executive wrote about the team's desire to steal signs in an August 2017 email that was obtained by The Athletic. As the club discussed its advance scouting plans ahead of the playoffs, the executive asked the team's scouts to pursue sign stealing from the stands, and suggested cameras could be used to do so.

"One thing in specific we are looking for is picking up signs coming out of the dugout," the email's sender wrote in a message from August of 2017. "What we are looking for is how much we can see, how we would log things, if we need cameras/binoculars, etc. So go to game, see what you can (or can't) do and report back your findings."

The email was sent to multiple people and provided to The Athletic on the condition that both its sender and recipients remain unnamed.

Major League Baseball declined to comment on the legality of scouts using cameras, which would require a public interpretation of a broadly written rule from 2017 that is applicable to an ongoing investigation. The rule prohibited electronic equipment from being used "for the purpose of stealing signs or conveying information designed to give a Club an advantage."

The Astros declined to comment.

The email at least reflects the mindset of the team's front office in 2017, when another sign-stealing effort was already underway. Last week, The Athletic published a story detailing a scheme the Astros used involving a center-field camera at Minute Maid Park that was fixed on the catcher signs.

Scouts discussed sign stealing with the executive outside of email as well, on phone calls and in a group Slack channel. Multiple Astros scouts said they were appalled by the possibility they would be asked to use a camera and said that some scouts indeed voiced as much to management. Another scout noted a generally confounded feeling amongst the group by the overall request.

"Nobody wanted to do that, and take a chance of getting caught and ruining their reputation, not only as a scout but then even further damage what the Astros had going," one person directly involved in the conversations said.

What Astros' management did with any information learned through the project, or how they intended it to evolve, is unclear.

"It just goes to the story, for 2017, we were asked to electronically cheat in the playoffs," one scout said of the long-term intent as he perceived it.

MLB rules made it permissible then and today for scouts to steal signs in the stands so long as the signs are not being communicated during that same game, and so long as those signs are stolen with one's own eyes or binoculars, a source familiar with the rules said.

The potential use of the camera, however, could have been a rule violation in 2017.

The rule is written broadly. But that does not mean commissioner Rob Manfred would necessarily interpret its application the same across usages. For instance, were the Astros intending to review the footage only after the game and not use the footage during the game to signal signs in realtime it's possible Manfred would see a gray area in the rule as written then. Or, he could see a blanket clause rendering the use of the camera illegal. The rules have been updated since that year.

A longtime scout outside of the Astros organization said that, across the sport, asking advance scouts to attempt to track signs is not uncommon. A general manager confirmed the same. But the potential use of a camera stood out to both.

"That's (b.s.)," the scout outside the organization said. "When you start bringing in help, that's when it crosses the line and is unacceptable. Other guys would call them out. If you're sitting there with a camera trying to steal signs and somebody saw it, you get ratted out quickly."

Said another scout unaffiliated with the Astros: "There's a gray area. But I think cameras are past the line. It's cheating, basically. I don't know if it's 'cheating-cheating.' But it's over the line."

During the 2018 playoffs, the Indians and Red Sox separately discovered a person connected to the Astros named Kyle McLaughlin taking pictures near the dugout. MLB investigated and said it found no wrongdoing.

The Astros' front office will be looked at closely as MLB investigates the center-field camera system the team used to steal pitchers' signs during the 2017 season.

"Obviously, following the rules is crucial to the competition on the field; any time there's this sort of allegation, we take it very seriously," commissioner Rob Manfred told Yahoo Finance at the Paley International Council Summit on Thursday. "We're in the midst of gathering the facts. We want to make sure we understand everything that went on, who was involved, how far up in the organization it went. And at that point in time, we'll make a decision as to what, if any, discipline is appropriate."

When a team was last publicly disciplined for a sign-stealing effort, in 2017, Manfred's statement explaining punishment for the Red Sox began by pointing out the violation "occurred without the knowledge of ownership or front office personnel."

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Don't think this "revelation" proves anything we didn't already know.

This actually worries me. If the investigation holds up, do you think the league could vacate our title?

dshedd41 said:

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This actually worries me. If the investigation holds up, do you think the league could vacate our title?

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Not in a million years.

redline248 said:

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No way. It was league wide, and they can't prove we used it during games rather than for research purposes

The more concerning thing to me is that there appears to be no shortage of former/current employees that are willing to rat out the Astros

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Great post. Agreed.

redline248 said:

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I have the impression that since the Taubman thing Ken Rosenthal has been out to take down the Astros.

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Rosenthal definitely seemed to take that whole Taubman situation very personal. He wasn't happy that more heads rolled (other than Taubman being fired) and helped jump start the stream of articles across the sports media trashing the Astros "problematic culture".

Now he's got that piece of **** Evan Drellich, who is no fan of the Astros, on board to help him out.

Sucks that the organization seems to have plenty of dirt and angry ex employees to allow them to keep putting out these articles.

It's too bad we don't have the media protecting us like the Yankees.

This story is becoming tiresome. As with any big story, reporters are going to use the new shred of information as a new story, then rehash the old info. ESPN is reporting they found the source of the email as Kevin Goldstein. It shows the Front Office knew about what was going on. That's the point they are focused on. What they aren't clearly writing out is that the email seems like the Astros wanted scouts to do research, to find out what they could see and if they could use it as an advantage.

Sign stealing is an age-old practice in baseball. Each team is trying to gain advantage on the competition. The Astros aren't the only team doing this.

If the Astros hasn't taken down the Yankees, Dodgers and Red Sox, I doubt this would be a huge deal. But, this seems like a media witch hunt -- and I used to be a member of the media!

That being said, **** that Taubman guy. If he would have not been a dick, the reporters would not be in the Astros.

MLB needs to close it's investigation quickly, hand down whatever punishment it needs to, so we can move on. Dragging it out leads to even more speculation. I'm really sick of fans like Jomboy, posting so-called evidence, when it is easily disputed and other family saying things like the 2017 championship needs an asterisk , needs to be stripped or the Astros should be demoted to AAA.

Why would they need to be exploring a way to steal signs come playoff time if they had been doing it all season?

So they know if competition was using new techniques or signs.

agproducer said:

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So they know if competition was using new techniques or signs.

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So they are going on the road to try and scout signals. What exactly is wrong with doing that besides potentially being considered bush league?

I've taken break on Astros news after game 7 debacle .... any chance we get a new head coach from this nonsense on the signs?

03_Aggie said:

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agproducer said:

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So they know if competition was using new techniques or signs.

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So they are going on the road to try and scout signals. What exactly is wrong with doing that besides potentially being considered bush league?

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Nothing, imo.

Quote:

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"It just goes to the story, for 2017, we were asked to electronically cheat in the playoffs," one scout said of the long-term intent as he perceived it.

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Didn't we fire some scouts after last season? Perhaps it was after 2017 but I'm pretty sure about this. I'd like to know if this is from a scout that's been fired or one still with the team. The author doesn't say.....

The big question I want to know is what did MLB know at the time they implemented the new rules. I have to think this isn't the first they've heard of the Astros (or any other team's) sign stealing program, other than maybe some specific details.

To me, MLB is almost in a tougher spot here than the Astros. They clearly knew this stuff was happening around the league a few years ago, as evidenced by the fact that they put in tougher rules to combat it. But I think they bet that the details would stay swept under the rug and therefore didn't dole out any punishments in the spirit of "we can't punish the whole league".

Now that all the details are emerging, I feel like MLB is facing a PR crisis of sorts. They can't really come out and say "NBD, everyone was doing it then". But they also can't rip into the Astros for a variety of reasons, most notably because then the Astros could start leaking info about what they knew about other sign stealing programs and a whole tattle tale spiral ensues. One thing I guarantee is that Carlos Beltran and Alex Cora were parties to advanced sign stealing tactics before they came to the Astros.

It's like MLB has to come up with a settlement of sorts that makes it appear the Astros are being punished while also recognizing the baseball-wide issue in 2017 and what MLB did to address it. I think the focus of the investigation should be on what teams did after the new clarifying rules in 2019 went into effect, because that's where I think the harshest penalties can most justly be handed down.

From here forward, I'm basically assuming that each leak or detail that emerges about our 2017 sign stealing is meaningless. Our defense at this point probably isn't "we didn't do it", although there might still be an avenue to argue that real time camera linkage to the clubhouse didn't take place. I think this argument is weak based on all the circumstantial evidence though. I think our defense right now is more like "come on MLB, we were doing this during a time when you know many other teams were doing it and we stopped when you said enough is enough".

So I think our best case scenario of how this plays out is that MLB releases a statement to this effect:

"From years 20XX to 2018, MLB received many tips that multiple teams were engaged in sign stealing via the use of electronic sources. At the end of the 2018 season, MLB put in place rules (no cameras between foul poles, 8 second feed delay, etc) to clarify existing provisions and combat any further use of this tactic. Warnings were issued to each team that any further violation would result in severe consequences.

Over the past XX weeks, MLB has conducted a thorough investigation of the new rules enacted after 2018 and concluded that each team is in compliance.

Recently, public accusations have been targeted at the Houston Astros and their specific sign stealing methods in 2017. MLB conducted an investigation to find any new information not established in 2017. Many sources were interviewed, some of whom are no longer with the Astros. The result of this investigation yielded a league-wide abuse of sign stealing tactics similar to what caused the post 2018 rule changes. For their part, the Houston Astros have been fined $XX. Discipline action for other teams involved will remain undisclosed."

Looks like the A's come to town April 24-26. Wonder if Fiers will have the balls to take the mound at MMP.

Bingo. The irony is that the MLB is handcuffed here. I think this boils down to the Yankees and their powerful media tired of losing is the biggest factor here. I'm sure the rules put into place in 2017 were only put there because of the Astros, sounds legit.

Yet the Stros still made it to the WS this year. Sounds more like Fiers may have been paid off. Timing is too suspect considering the Yankees had just complained about some "whistling" going on when the MLB rep was in the dugout. If the trash can stuff is real, this entire thing was set in motion awhile back and the Yankees threw something into the media during the ALCS to intentionally set this in motion. Think the MLB would go after the Yankees yet one of the guys "supposedly" involved was with Yankees prior to joining the Astros? You know that **** ain't making it into the news.

Nino Brown said:

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Bingo. The irony is that the MLB is handcuffed here. I think this boils down to the Yankees and their powerful media tired of losing is the biggest factor here. I'm sure the rules put into place in 2017 were only put there because of the Astros, sounds legit.

Yet the Stros still made it to the WS this year. Sounds more like Fiers may have been paid off. Timing is too suspect considering the Yankees had just complained about some "whistling" going on when the MLB rep was in the dugout. If the trash can stuff is real, this entire thing was set in motion awhile back and the Yankees threw something into the media during the ALCS to intentionally set this in motion. Think the MLB would go after the Yankees yet one of the guys "supposedly" involved was with Yankees prior to joining the Astros? You know that **** ain't making it into the news.

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I think alot of that is probably true to some extent. Also think we brought some of it on ourselves with the mishandling of the Taubman incident. We attacked a reporter and now reporters want revenge. I also think our general smugness as an organization has left some defectors eager to snitch on us.

But despite all of this intentionally being framed as an Astros issue for revenge, clicks, etc, it's very clear that it's a league-wide issue and MLB will have its hands full addressing it over the coming months.

Quote:

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Looks like the A's come to town April 24-26. Wonder if Fiers will have the balls to take the mound at MMP.

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How is he going to eat a fastball? They need to work on hitting up the center for that game

Even better, look in the A's dugout and give a fastball inside sign.