aTm2004 said:

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Fixed?

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He's got a tiny little buzzer near his eye that allows him to see extra good!!! Cheater!!!!!

Consider it for you too

Man I need baseball to start

Wabs said:

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MaxPower said:

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The problem is he laid a stiff penalty on the Astros. If he covers up other teams with viable leads it will be an epic scandal. Worst in sports history. If it's true that roughly a quarter of the league does this stuff then it means 3/4 will be pissed off if he's covering up other teams that could be competitively impaired through penalties to their benefit.

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As much as I (and probably everyone on this thread) would love to see every team suspected of cheating investigated, I really don't see it happening. Manfred's #1 job is to put fans in seats. The last thing he wants is an ongoing scandal with investigation after investigation. He wants the focus on actual baseball.

It sucks donkey dick, but the Astros (and Red Sox to a much lesser degree) are going to take it on the chin for MLB. Be prepared for that.

Fan bases around the league are ok with the Astros taking all the blame. One, they don't want their team investigated. Two, they have the Astros to blame for them not winning a title (LA & NY).

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Here's why I think there is at least an outside chance that baseball will and in fact, may even be compelled to investigate all alleged cases of "cheating." When the states started legalizing sports gambling a couple years ago following the Supreme Court ruling, the pro leagues came up with a very novel idea to assure they got a piece of the action. State by state, they went before the gambling governing body and told them they they wanted an 'integrity fee' in the range of 4% of all money placed on their league in a legal gambling entity within that state. The premise was (and is) that the league will insure there are no ways that the game can be manipulated by players, teams, managers, coaches, league or team employees, etc. And the states with legal sports betting bought the pitch. Now baseball is compelled to make sure there is no cheating or other manipulation of their game or they stand to lose the integrity fee. Manfred, in my opinion will have to turn over every legitimate stone if there is real evidence.

That's a really interesting angle to all this.

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Here's why I think there is at least an outside chance that baseball will and in fact, may even be compelled to investigate all alleged cases of "cheating." When the states started legalizing sports gambling a couple years ago following the Supreme Court ruling that allowed states to do so, the pro leagues came up with a very novel idea to assure they got a piece of the action. State by state, they went before the gambling governing body and told them they they wanted an 'integrity fee' in the range of 4% of all money placed on their league in a legal gambling entity within that state. The premise was (and is) that the league will insure there are no ways that the game can be manipulated by players, teams, managers, coaches, league or team employees, etc. And the states with legal sports betting bought the pitch. Now baseball is compelled to make sure there is no cheating or other manipulation of their game or they lose the integrity fee. Manfred, in my opinion will have to turn over ever legitimate stone if there is real evidence.

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That is an interesting angle. I know one of the sports radio shows I listen to mentioned briefly that bettors from 2017 are probably a little ticked but theres not much you can do retroactively.

I think the bigger issue for Manfred at this point is that the backlash from this has been more than he probably could have ever imagined. I am sure he is facing a lot of heat. Now, do you try to cover up whats out there to minimize the damage, but risk losing your job and all credibility if it comes out later that you did? Or, do you investigate every complaint to the fullest of your capabilities and punish accordingly? I think he has been cornered into the latter.

iamtheglove said:

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Wabs said:

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MaxPower said:

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The problem is he laid a stiff penalty on the Astros. If he covers up other teams with viable leads it will be an epic scandal. Worst in sports history. If it's true that roughly a quarter of the league does this stuff then it means 3/4 will be pissed off if he's covering up other teams that could be competitively impaired through penalties to their benefit.

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As much as I (and probably everyone on this thread) would love to see every team suspected of cheating investigated, I really don't see it happening. Manfred's #1 job is to put fans in seats. The last thing he wants is an ongoing scandal with investigation after investigation. He wants the focus on actual baseball.

It sucks donkey dick, but the Astros (and Red Sox to a much lesser degree) are going to take it on the chin for MLB. Be prepared for that.

Fan bases around the league are ok with the Astros taking all the blame. One, they don't want their team investigated. Two, they have the Astros to blame for them not winning a title (LA & NY).

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Here's why I think there is at least an outside chance that baseball will and in fact, may even be compelled to investigate all alleged cases of "cheating." When the states started legalizing sports gambling a couple years ago following the Supreme Court ruling that allowed states to do so, the pro leagues came up with a very novel idea to assure they got a piece of the action. State by state, they went before the gambling governing body and told them they they wanted an 'integrity fee' in the range of 4% of all money placed on their league in a legal gambling entity within that state. The premise was (and is) that the league will insure there are no ways that the game can be manipulated by players, teams, managers, coaches, league or team employees, etc. And the states with legal sports betting bought the pitch. Now baseball is compelled to make sure there is no cheating or other manipulation of their game or they lose the integrity fee. Manfred, in my opinion will have to turn over ever legitimate stone if there is real evidence.

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Very good point, and something I hadn't thought of. I hope you're right. But there are ways to sweep things under the rug and still give the appearance of maintaining "integrity". They can certainly not aggressively pursue leads. The whole Astros thing started with an allegation by a player. That opened the can. Recently, Logan Morrison (a current active player) said that he knows of several teams that have done similar. Shouldn't that be enough for the league to interview him at the very minimum (and give him immunity)? Isn't this similar to Fiers' accusation? I haven't seen anything that would indicate that MLB is going to pursue this.

Have we decided who is starting the reg season thread?

n_touch said:

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Have we decided who is starting the reg season thread?

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I think Mazag's preferential heir was CFTXAG10. I'm in no position to dispute that.

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Very good point, and something I hadn't thought of. I hope you're right. But there are ways to sweep things under the rug and still give the appearance of maintaining "integrity". They can certainly not aggressively pursue leads. The whole Astros thing started with an allegation by a player. That opened the can. Recently, Logan Morrison (a current active player) said that he knows of several teams that have done similar. Shouldn't that be enough for the league to interview him at the very minimum (and give him immunity)? Isn't this similar to Fiers' accusation? I haven't seen anything that would indicate that MLB is going to pursue this.

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Another good point. Manfred tries to sweep everything else under the rug, but runs the risk of a guy like Logan Morrison or other whistleblowers to come out and expose him. "Hey I told the commissioner about this and he wouldn't investigate so here is what I know for sure"

It is similar to how this whole thing got started. Apparently a lot of clubs over the last several years were filing grievances with Manfred over illegal sign-stealing and he just kept saying play on. You never heard about any of those because it wasn't public record. It was just Manfred, his office, and his word. Enter Mike Fiers with the help of The Athletic. All public and a first hand account = cannot ignore. If Manfred doesn't fully investigate everything he is risking a lot more of this going public without an opportunity to be out ahead of it....

My take on Fiers is kinda unpopular. I think he's somewhat genuine in his intentions but is mostly a pawn in a bigger game. And the result thus far has been the worst case scenario for him personally.

Fiers celebrated with the team after the 2017 World Series and subsequent parade. Happy guy. Getting left off the playoff roster was NBD. Then he got his ring with the Tigers in early 2018 and thanked the Astros. Contrary to popular opinion, I don't think he had too much animosity about being non-tendered.

But then he goes to the A's and gets lit up by the Astros at MMP a few times. The A's (division rival) had likely heard about all the 2017 stuff and Mike probably confirms off the record for them that the sign steal/banging happened. That bit of inside baseball knowledge spreads and guys like Bauer start theorizing for everyone to hear that the Astros are still cheating, but in a way less obvious than banging a trash can. Insert buzzer theory.

Teams/players file grievances with MLB, which MLB doesn't act on to their satisfaction. Then Fiers gets absolutely destroyed at MMP in Sept 2019. The Yankees complain about Astros whistling during the ALCS (in hindsight this could have just been a huge attention ploy rather than an actual accusation). Then Altuve hits a walk off HR of Chapman and doesn't want his jersey ripped off. Confirmation bias x 100000.

Finally Fiers gives in to pressure from the A's and general baseball community to go public, thinking that's the only way to get the Astros to stop. He didn't necessarily want to rat out his former teammates and have his lone world series ring tainted, but at that point, the cheating seems so rampant and Manfred won't do anything about it. So all eyes on him. If MLB is going to take the issue seriously, someone has to take it public. He reluctantly agrees.

What's happened since then has been basically the worst case scenario for Fiers. It was worth it for him to have his ring tainted IF it meant cleaning up the game and getting the Astros to stop cheating. But a funny thing had already happened that he didn't consider... the Astros stopped cheating in early 2018 and were destroying the league fair and square. So all he really did by coming forward was taint his own accomplishment.

Anyway, that's what you get for being a snitch when you don't have all the facts. Regardless of anything I've written above, he's a snake and I hope he has trouble finding a job when his contract is up.

Wabs said:

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I just wish there was one ****ing reporter out there that would ask about Morrison's comments and what MLB plans to do with it (if anything). I think most reporters are more interested in getting little snippets of quotes from players against the Astros and posting them on social media (Hey! Look at what he said!!).

And where are "unbiased" journalists like Olney and Rosenthal?? Why aren't they asking these questions?

If I'm Crane, I start making public comments about stuff like this if MLB doesn't start investigating. He's rich enough to handle any fines, and his team is being drug through the mud every day.

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The only theory that gives me hope right now is that Crane knows more information is coming out and more investigations being dialed up. Verlander has hinted that may be the case. Manfred was asked about it directly and didn't rule it out. I guess we'll find out soon enough if that's the case.

I actually agree with all that too. I understand the build up to how he became the fall guy for an entire baseball community that got duped into thinking the Astros were still cheating. But regardless of any rationale for his actions, he can suffer all the consequences of being a snitch too.

CFTXAG10 said:

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I bet catcher is a position we are looking at adding to at the trade deadline.

Yea I think that's the recipe again this year. Let Maldy get the main reps and Stubbs/Garneau can have the backup reps until the deadline. Maybe Garneau develops into a solid No. 2 but if not we just acquire a vet like we did at the deadline the last two years. Saves money that way too.

Looks like Max Scherzer vs Christian Javier are the opening day starters for the Spring Training game Saturday.

CoachRTM said:

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I think the MLB wanted the Astros to be the SMU of the paying players scandal. Not a perfect comparison, but overall I think it works - It was a rampant problem, punish one team hard and pretend everything is good now. The problem is that this isn't the 1980s and social media means you can't really "bury" something.

I also think Crane holds the nuclear option in his back pocket. It's a pretty open secret in the MLB about all the cheating was going on back in 2017. If MLB decides to strip the title, or do something ridiculous like that, we could drop all that information and basically make it a free-for-all against the league office.

Judge was getting tips in 2017 (see all the statistics already posted here) and I had actually heard that his 2017 season was one of the catalysts for the league wide memo sent out.

Yankees, Red Sox, Dodgers, Indians, Cubs + at least 3 more that I don't know have been talked about in the same way behind the scenes the Astros were talked about. I'm sure we know many of the details on how they cheated as well. We did research on what other teams were doing so that we had the best system. (Which is debatable because we were fairly awful at home that year, and our statistics show we had less effective at bats when we hit the trash can)

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Some great points here. MLB has a history of making scapegoats out of its own incompetence to police the game. Widespread problems get boiled down to easily targetable "bad guys", who take the fall. With steroids, Bud Selig coasts into the Hall of Fame while Bonds and Clemens gets shamed. Guys who also took steroids but were less successful on the field generally just skate by. Could end up being the same with this.

Totally agree about the futility in Manfred's "sweep everything else under the rug" strategy (if indeed that is his strategy here). That may have worked in 1992 when there was an inner circle of baseball reporters who could be manipulated in exchange for access. Not possible in the Twitter era though.

And agree that Crane does hold a nuclear card in his back pocket. Hopefully he has the balls to use it if Manfred doesn't have the balls to chase down every lead.

Max Kellerman is such trash. Talking about the Yankees crushing us in NY in the 17 ALCS and how we couldn't win there and how we barely beat them in Houston. They scored 3 ****ing runs in 4 games in Houston. They couldn't hit anything (gee I wonder why?) and we're getting blasted for cheating. Same thing goes for the Dodgers who couldn't hit anything either.

Deluxe said:

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CoachRTM said:

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I think the MLB wanted the Astros to be the SMU of the paying players scandal. Not a perfect comparison, but overall I think it works - It was a rampant problem, punish one team hard and pretend everything is good now. The problem is that this isn't the 1980s and social media means you can't really "bury" something.

I also think Crane holds the nuclear option in his back pocket. It's a pretty open secret in the MLB about all the cheating was going on back in 2017. If MLB decides to strip the title, or do something ridiculous like that, we could drop all that information and basically make it a free-for-all against the league office.

Judge was getting tips in 2017 (see all the statistics already posted here) and I had actually heard that his 2017 season was one of the catalysts for the league wide memo sent out.

Yankees, Red Sox, Dodgers, Indians, Cubs + at least 3 more that I don't know have been talked about in the same way behind the scenes the Astros were talked about. I'm sure we know many of the details on how they cheated as well. We did research on what other teams were doing so that we had the best system. (Which is debatable because we were fairly awful at home that year, and our statistics show we had less effective at bats when we hit the trash can)

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Some great points here. MLB has a history of making scapegoats out of its own incompetence to police the game. Widespread problems get boiled down to easily targetable "bad guys", who take the fall. With steroids, Bud Selig coasts into the Hall of Fame while Bonds and Clemens gets shamed. Guys who also took steroids but were less successful on the field generally just skate by. Could end up being the same with this.

Totally agree about the futility in Manfred's "sweep everything else under the rug" strategy (if indeed that is his strategy here). That may have worked in 1992 when there was an inner circle of baseball reporters who could be manipulated in exchange for access. Not possible in the Twitter era though.

And agree that Crane does hold a nuclear card in his back pocket. Hopefully he has the balls to use it if Manfred doesn't have the balls to chase down every lead.

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Is that a two way street? Is it possible that manfred holds addition cards in his pocket regarding Astro cheating that he didn't originally release (proof of buzzers, etc.)? Would this explain why crane has been a huge pink clam up to this point while we get drug thru the mud?

I agree that mlb had the intent to use us as the scapegoat to shut down cheating but it's out of hand now. If the bosox report is bad then it could spiral further out of control and backfire.

I dont think crane has enough credibility to have a nuclear option.

expresswrittenconsent said:

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I dont think crane has enough credibility to have a nuclear option.

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He does if he has proof. If he knows of 8 other teams then it would not be hard to get a team or folks together to go over video with a fine toothed comb. He has the resources to have the analyzed if he wants

expresswrittenconsent said:

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I dont think crane has enough credibility to have a nuclear option.

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IF (and a big IF) MLB during their investigation assured Crane that others would be investigated, and then they don't, Crane should not give 2 ****s about whether he has credibility. He needs to go scorched earth if he knows something. If not, he's a big ***** and he'll completely lose the players on his team.

Another fair point. Could be alot of guns pointed at eachother behind the scenes.

Crane needs to sell the team then sue the league for impairing the value of his club through unfair business practices. Now THAT would be interesting.

redline248 said:

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This f_ckin guy. Cuz we all grew up playing with pine tar and sandpaper in our gloves to doctor the ball.

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The Astros need to offer Bob Melvin $50 million in cash to make Mike Fiers pinch hit when Verlander is on the mound first time the A's come to Houston.

Wabs said:

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expresswrittenconsent said:

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I dont think crane has enough credibility to have a nuclear option.

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IF (and a big IF) MLB during their investigation assured Crane that others would be investigated, and then they don't, Crane should not give 2 ****s about whether he has credibility. He needs to go scorched earth if he knows something. If not, he's a big ***** and he'll completely lose the players on his team.

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Well, going nuclear means losing the team, by definition, and I dont mean losing the locker room, I mean forced to sell (like Marge Schott and Donald Sterling). I dont think Crane wants to do that under just about any circumstances.

Nah, I just want Fiers to pitch against us. I want to see Correa hit a home run and stare him down while he trots around the basepath.

So that Red Sox investigation is slated to finish up some time in 2022?