What sucks is our guys are pariahs now. Some of them may never get the stigma off depending upon how this year goes. Then you have guys like Hinch and Luhnow who may never hold a job in mlb again. If it's really true that a 1/3 of teams were doing this in some form, that's a tough pill to swallow.
*****Official 2019/2020 Houston Astros offseason thread*****
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Last: 3 yr ago by BMX Bandit
This ultimately is the problem of MLB picking and choosing who to investigate. Now that punishments have been handed out and the reactions seen, there will be a lot less willing cooperation.agsquirrel97 said:You think any player will ever talk again? Do you think any management organization will encourage players to be open and honest like the Astros allegedly told their players to be?Wabs said:
Of course the Astros did themselves no favors by cheating the way they did, and I for one think the punishment was just and needed. MLB initiated this investigation based on allegations by a former player, and then released the findings that set off a pitch-fork mob against the Astros. They could have fined/punished the Astros and kept alot of the details out of public view (like they often do with Boston, NY, etc.).
There are PLENTY of allegations against other teams, by current and former players, and even league officials. It would be a pretty ****ty deal and grossly unfair if MLB doesn't give each allegation the "Astros style" investigation. Go in, interview people, collect evidence, release the report with names, and hand out punishment. If they don't it's complete bull**** and a clear indication that they are willing to let the Astros take complete blame.
Hell no. Everyone has seen the pitchfork mob and ruined careers. No one is saying **** moving forward. Investigations are useless at this point. Red Sox aren't gonna talk, and no one else will.
MLB freaking sucks for not treating every rumor by players the same. I'm still convinced Manfred is a coward.
Yup. What a salve it would be to win it all this year.agproducer said:Regardless of what they say, it's going to be a major distraction -- especially on the road.k20dub said:These guys are going to face ridicule unlike anything sports have ever seen. Will be booed at every away game, especially the first month of the season. Will be heckled and asked about the scandal ad nauseam by reporters and fans all year.Frok said:
There is gonna be a lot of pressure on Astros hitters to perform this year. Imagine one of them doesn't hit as many home runs this year. What do you think everyone is going to say?
One of my best friend pitches for one of our American League West rivals and talking to him about this he basically said he's known this kind of stuff has been going on for years.
His best example to me that he remembers when he got to the MLB was an at bat of Victor Martinez against Sale when he was with the white Sox. Google it. Rumor was victor had someone in center field flashing him sales signs during the at bats
His best example to me that he remembers when he got to the MLB was an at bat of Victor Martinez against Sale when he was with the white Sox. Google it. Rumor was victor had someone in center field flashing him sales signs during the at bats
agdaddy04 said:
What sucks is our guys are pariahs now. Some of them may never get the stigma off depending upon how this year goes. Then you have guys like Hinch and Luhnow who may never hold a job in mlb again. If it's really true that a 1/3 of teams were doing this in some form, that's a tough pill to swallow.
Luhnow and Hinch are the best GM and Manager in baseball and we are going to get to watch some other teams get lauded for their "amazing hires" only one year from now
JJxvi said:agdaddy04 said:
What sucks is our guys are pariahs now. Some of them may never get the stigma off depending upon how this year goes. Then you have guys like Hinch and Luhnow who may never hold a job in mlb again. If it's really true that a 1/3 of teams were doing this in some form, that's a tough pill to swallow.
Luhnow and Hinch are the best GM and Manager in baseball and we are going to get to watch some other teams get lauded for their "amazing hires" only one year from now
Wouldn't count on that with Luhnow...he is likely done in baseball; not a popular figure across the league from before this was even an issue.
Why dont you do everyone a solid and convince your friend to rat on the teams? Unless of course he plays for the A's
In 2017 Stroman started twice against the Stros. His stat line was 7 IP for 1 ER and 6.2 IP for 2 ER with 6 SO's in each game and 0 HR....better then his numbers against the rest of the league.
What's he complaining about again?
He gave up more runs to TEX, MIL, NYY, BOS, CHW, OAK, TBR and DET. Were they cheating?
He didn't face Houston in 2018 or 2019. And in 2016 he dominated the Stros in two starts. 7 and 6.1 innings, 1 ER each game with 13 (in HOU) and 8 SO's.
The dude is just piling on to get his holier then thou name out there.
What's he complaining about again?
He gave up more runs to TEX, MIL, NYY, BOS, CHW, OAK, TBR and DET. Were they cheating?
He didn't face Houston in 2018 or 2019. And in 2016 he dominated the Stros in two starts. 7 and 6.1 innings, 1 ER each game with 13 (in HOU) and 8 SO's.
The dude is just piling on to get his holier then thou name out there.
Theres like what 4 or 5 teams in baseball right now who already hired baby Luhnow's from the Astros? He will get hired immediately, nobody gives a **** about being a pariah compared to possibly winning World Series
Well not "nobody" clearly some will balk, but there would not be anywhere close to 30 "no's"
Well not "nobody" clearly some will balk, but there would not be anywhere close to 30 "no's"
JJxvi said:
Theres like what 4 or 5 teams in baseball right now who already hired baby Luhnow's from the Astros? He will get hired immediately, nobody gives a **** about being a pariah compared to possibly winning World Series
It's gonna freaking suck when the Rangers run Daniels off to hire Luhnow.
Hinch is the more damaged reputation IMO but even he will get hired again fast, especially since hes a more charismatic figure
My only hope is that Lunhow has enough quality star analysts trained up in the Astros organization who can continue on his legacy.
Assuming that, it may be a good thing in terms of trades. I get the feeling that after the Stros made some really excellent deals (Cole, for instance), that other teams were much less likely to make a good trade knowing that Lunhow was on the other side.
I mean, just look at what it took to get a Greinke here versus what the Mets gave up for Stroman. There's little doubt in my mind that we could have easily put together a better package for Stroman without giving up anywhere near what we did for Greinke.
Assuming that, it may be a good thing in terms of trades. I get the feeling that after the Stros made some really excellent deals (Cole, for instance), that other teams were much less likely to make a good trade knowing that Lunhow was on the other side.
I mean, just look at what it took to get a Greinke here versus what the Mets gave up for Stroman. There's little doubt in my mind that we could have easily put together a better package for Stroman without giving up anywhere near what we did for Greinke.
the 2020 Astros (and probably the 2021 Astros too) will be a great test case for how important the GM and the manager are...for on-the-field success
Greinke was expensive no doubt
AggiEE said:
My only hope is that Lunhow has enough quality star analysts trained up in the Astros organization who can continue on his legacy.
Assuming that, it may be a good thing in terms of trades. I get the feeling that after the Stros made some really excellent deals (Cole, for instance), that other teams were much less likely to make a good trade knowing that Lunhow was on the other side.
I mean, just look at what it took to get a Greinke here versus what the Mets gave up for Stroman. There's little doubt in my mind that we could have easily put together a better package for Stroman without giving up anywhere near what we did for Greinke.
What are you defining as a "good" trade? Is it a good trade when it's only in our favor? If that's the case, people were less willing to trade with Lunhow because he took advantage of their stupidity.
Do you feel that we truly got fleeced in any of Lunhow's trades?
You also need to remember, the Mets and Jays made that Stroman deal way earlier than everyone anticipated. Would someone other than Lunhow made that trade as early as the Mets did? If the Mets didn't make that trade, I would guarantee the Jays would have asked for more than what they got from the Mets at the deadline with 4 teams desperate for elite pitching at the deadline.
W said:
Greinke was expensive no doubt
I think Greinke being expensive was a matter of supply and demand and the new trade deadline. I don't think it's going to be that way much more in the future. Teams are going to adjust. I think we'll start to see trades earlier like what the Mets did.
Beat40 said:AggiEE said:
My only hope is that Lunhow has enough quality star analysts trained up in the Astros organization who can continue on his legacy.
Assuming that, it may be a good thing in terms of trades. I get the feeling that after the Stros made some really excellent deals (Cole, for instance), that other teams were much less likely to make a good trade knowing that Lunhow was on the other side.
I mean, just look at what it took to get a Greinke here versus what the Mets gave up for Stroman. There's little doubt in my mind that we could have easily put together a better package for Stroman without giving up anywhere near what we did for Greinke.
What are you defining as a "good" trade? Is it a good trade when it's only in our favor? If that's the case, people were less willing to trade with Lunhow because he took advantage of their stupidity.
Do you feel that we truly got fleeced in any of Lunhow's trades?
You also need to remember, the Mets and Jays made that Stroman deal way earlier than everyone anticipated. Would someone other than Lunhow made that trade as early as the Mets did? If the Mets didn't make that trade, I would guarantee the Jays would have asked for more than what they got from the Mets at the deadline with 4 teams desperate for elite pitching at the deadline.
Carlos Gomez and Mike Fiers for Josh Hader
Easily one of the worst trades in baseball history now
on a different subject...I read where Arenado and the Rockies are already having issues entering year 2 of his 8-year mega-contract.
another tip of the cap to Luhnow's strategy of not doing long-term contracts. Things can go south in a hurry
another tip of the cap to Luhnow's strategy of not doing long-term contracts. Things can go south in a hurry
astros4545 said:Beat40 said:AggiEE said:
My only hope is that Lunhow has enough quality star analysts trained up in the Astros organization who can continue on his legacy.
Assuming that, it may be a good thing in terms of trades. I get the feeling that after the Stros made some really excellent deals (Cole, for instance), that other teams were much less likely to make a good trade knowing that Lunhow was on the other side.
I mean, just look at what it took to get a Greinke here versus what the Mets gave up for Stroman. There's little doubt in my mind that we could have easily put together a better package for Stroman without giving up anywhere near what we did for Greinke.
What are you defining as a "good" trade? Is it a good trade when it's only in our favor? If that's the case, people were less willing to trade with Lunhow because he took advantage of their stupidity.
Do you feel that we truly got fleeced in any of Lunhow's trades?
You also need to remember, the Mets and Jays made that Stroman deal way earlier than everyone anticipated. Would someone other than Lunhow made that trade as early as the Mets did? If the Mets didn't make that trade, I would guarantee the Jays would have asked for more than what they got from the Mets at the deadline with 4 teams desperate for elite pitching at the deadline.
Carlos Gomez and Mike Fiers for Josh Hader
Easily one of the worst trades in baseball history now
Haha, yup. You got me there.
Man, if only we had left him on the 2017 postseason roster, we wouldn't be in this mess!
Greinke was expensive but it paid off... or should have. He started game 7 and put us in position to win in the 7th inning.
https://www.mlb.com/news/nolan-arenado-responds-to-trade-rumors
Not looking good if you're a Rockies fan.
Not looking good if you're a Rockies fan.
Still pissed at Crane. Kraft didn't fire Belicek and it blew over - both times. If they were sitting on the sidelines for the year I don't think this has the weight it has been given.
Especially over the next 12 months of them being suspended. Imagine how much more whistle blower type crap is going to come out over this time. It's barely been over a week and you've got burners, Jack McDowell, Logan Morrison, etc.Big Al 1992 said:
Still pissed at Crane. Kraft didn't fire Belicek and it blew over - both times. If they were sitting on the sidelines for the year I don't think this has the weight it has been given.
It stung me to see them let go and it still does.
Who couldn't see that coming from a mile away. He's a elite defender, but how much is the really worth? Offensively, he's decent. Well above avg for sure. But he's a Coors product. The splits don't lie.W said:
on a different subject...I read where Arenado and the Rockies are already having issues entering year 2 of his 8-year mega-contract.
another tip of the cap to Luhnow's strategy of not doing long-term contracts. Things can go south in a hurry
I see think there may be more to it. This could have been MLB goes easy (easier, they ****ed us) as long as we clean house.Big Al 1992 said:
Still pissed at Crane. Kraft didn't fire Belicek and it blew over - both times. If they were sitting on the sidelines for the year I don't think this has the weight it has been given.
Big Al 1992 said:
Kraft didn't fire Belicek and it blew over - both times.
Completely different situations. Kraft and Crane are nothing alike.
Bottom line was Crane lost trust. What made this work the past few years was cohesion and synergy between owner, front office, and manager. Those three were all on the same page as to who did what, when, and why. Crane gave those guys the keys to the Lambo and they totalled it (with help from the players but that's a whole other thing).
After all is said and done once Crane was duped and left with egg on his face he had to make a change.
Farmer1906 said:Who couldn't see that coming from a mile away. He's a elite defender, but how much is the really worth? Offensively, he's decent. Well above avg for sure. But he's a Coors product. The splits don't lie.W said:
on a different subject...I read where Arenado and the Rockies are already having issues entering year 2 of his 8-year mega-contract.
another tip of the cap to Luhnow's strategy of not doing long-term contracts. Things can go south in a hurry
About a year ago, people in this forum were arguing he was a top 3 player in baseball
astros4545 said:Farmer1906 said:Who couldn't see that coming from a mile away. He's a elite defender, but how much is the really worth? Offensively, he's decent. Well above avg for sure. But he's a Coors product. The splits don't lie.W said:
on a different subject...I read where Arenado and the Rockies are already having issues entering year 2 of his 8-year mega-contract.
another tip of the cap to Luhnow's strategy of not doing long-term contracts. Things can go south in a hurry
About a year ago, people in this forum were arguing he was a top 3 player in baseball
I recall. I called them wrong then too.
And Yankee fans definitely don't want McCann chirping. I imagine he'll stay quiet.
So the question has been asked and will get asked again and again - Does this stain the 2017 WS Championship? Players really need to come up with a more definitive, ballsy answer. How would you answer or like to see JV answer?
Something like - look we played our asses off for 162 games plus post season against the best teams in the league. We made pitches when it counted, defensive plays when it counted and hits when they counted. We beat NY, Boston, and LA and there's plenty of smoke out there that our opponents were trying to take advantage of technology and Some Of our players may have done the same. No - it doesn't tarnish anything - Astro's were the best team in baseball in 2017.
Something like - look we played our asses off for 162 games plus post season against the best teams in the league. We made pitches when it counted, defensive plays when it counted and hits when they counted. We beat NY, Boston, and LA and there's plenty of smoke out there that our opponents were trying to take advantage of technology and Some Of our players may have done the same. No - it doesn't tarnish anything - Astro's were the best team in baseball in 2017.
Big Al 1992 said:
So the question has been asked and will get asked again and again - Does this stain the 2017 WS Championship? Players really need to come up with a more definitive, ballsy answer. How would you answer or like to see JV answer?
Something like - look we played our asses off for 162 games plus post season against the best teams in the league. We made pitches when it counted, defensive plays when it counted and hits when they counted. We beat NY, Boston, and LA and there's plenty of smoke out there that our opponents were trying to take advantage of technology and Some Of our players may have done the same. No - it doesn't tarnish anything - Astro's were the best team in baseball in 2017.
I don't think they have to say anything, but I also wouldn't mind if one (or all of them) got this message across.
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