I don't think people called Kinsler a terrible player, at least not very many and not outside the immediate frustration of a game.

I think people called him a physically talented head case who was inconsistent.


Odor isn't nearly as physically talented. He doesn't have the ability to go swipe 25 bags with impunity, he doesn't have the hand-eye coordination to make contact like Kinsler, and doesn't have the arm to side arm his way through seasons like Kinsler did.

Schall 02 said:

---

https://sportsday.dallasnews.com/texas-rangers/rangers/2019/07/05/rougned-odor-isnt-practicing-rangers-preaching-teammate-might-telling-wrong-things#_ga=2.101094658.241204644.1562213294-1276148424.1494030793

---

I think that article has the correct format of information... the problem is the analysis is terrible.

The article uses Gallo as an example of listening to Woody and the approach to reduce the strike zone.

What does the data suggest?

K%
Gallo
2017: 36.8%
2018: 35.9%
2019: 35.9%

Odor:
2014: 17.0%
2015: 16.8%
2016: 21.4%
2017: 24.9%
2018: 23.7%
2019: 31.7%

Gallo is hardly an example I would use to show a change in approach. His K% is the same before and after. In fact, if you were to just look at the numbers, Odor's K% is up 30% over his typical season average. Shocking. Well, not really. If you look at 2018, in May, Odor had a K% of 33.3%. He was 23.2% in June. In fact, he was 22.0% in the 2nd half of the season. That still suggests to me that Odor doesn't come to ST ready to go. It also suggests that Gallo is no better off with the new approach than he was.

It is widely accepted that LATAM players don't walk. The article suggests Andrus is giving Odor poor advice. To me, it only reinforces their mentality. But, get back to me when Gallo has a lower K% than Odor, if you want to use him as an example of discipline at the plate.

TXAggie2011 said:

---

Gallo's approach--or at least a lot of the numbers--have most definitely changed.

He's swinging at less than 40% of pitches, having been above 47% the last two seasons. His out of the zone swing percentage is down to 25% from 32+%.

He's walking more because of it and when he makes contact, its better contact because of it.

His approach hasn't yet turned into fewer strikeouts, but that's not exactly what Woodward is saying in that article. And I think Gallo is going to strike out a ton, always, because his swing is always going to be painfully long. But, if he forces pitchers to throw him more strikes, those times he makes contact will presumably be better contact.


I agree the article maybe should have given a caveat about strikeout rates, but Odor is still swinging at over 35% of pitches outside of the zone, which is no change from last year and not much lower than his career average.

That's 122 out of the 157 players ranked on Fangraphs.

And while I don't pay too much attention to position, its 21 out of 24 second baseman.

---

Great info. Let's keep it on stats, and less about personalities, although names are fine.

Vladamir Guerrero was notorious for swinging at pitches out of the strike zone. Career 38.9%. He was at 43.8% and 45.7% his final season in 2011. It is an interesting stat, but has its flaws.

Odor peaked at 44.2% in 2016 (age 22), then went 39.3%, 35.2% and this season 34.0%. He has a career 38.1%. So, you have to like his trending.

Of the 35 players ranked below him... how many are Latin players? One is former Ranger Hanser Alberto (48.2%). Another is Ozzie Albies (22). Profar is at 31.6% (11th)

There is a discrpency in Odor's numbers. On his fangraphs page, it indicates 34.0% and the leaderboard show 35.4%. 34% would put him at 17th.

Working on my minor league pitching stats, and found this gem:


Rangers sign ABD


Austin Bibens-Dirkx Game Log for 2019:
6-29: 4.2 IP, 4 ER, 3 BB, 3 SO
7-05: 5.0 IP, 2 ER, 1 BB, 5 SO

Looks like we aren't done with the attempt to fill the #5 spot... or after last night, the #4 spot.

Sampson appears to be a serviceable innings eater against the lower tier teams, but against the better teams... not so much.

Boston (.278, 1st against RHP) and Minn (.264, 4th against RHP) were his 2 worst games and they hit RHP hard. I think Woody likely needs to consider how he uses Sampson. Maybe an Opener against some teams, or a skip in the rotation.

ABD could be a replacement for Chavez, putting him back in the bullpen, could be a 6th starter, or a gap pitcher to get through July and the trade deadline.

Now something to talk about that I enjoy... minor league pitchers in the Rangers org

Players listed by GS at current level. One of the complicating factors is the Rangers started using a 6-Man rotation for AA and below. The guys in the top section have only pitched at that level, this season.

AAA:
Wes Benjamin (25-LH): 16 GS, 77.2 IP, 6.84 ERA
Phillips Valdez (27-RH): 13 GS, 66.2 IP, 5.40 ERA
Seth Maness (30-RH): 12 GS, 67.0 IP, 4.97 ERA

--Multiple levels, but currently at AAA. Stats at AAA
Pedro Payano (24-RH): 6GS, 3.08 ERA, 1.291 WHIP
Joe Palumbo (24-LH): 2 GS, 3.86 ERA <- Rangers #7 Prospect
ABD (34-RH) now in AAA with 2 GS, 5.59 ERA
--
Sounds have also used Tim Dillard (35), Pena (6GS, 32.2 IP, 7.44 ERA), Ronald Herrerra (5 GS, 18.2, 13.02 ERA) and Taylor Hearn (24, 4 GS, 4.05).
Hearn has gone missing since his MLB debut. Injured by **no TJ**. <- Rangers #10 Prospect


AA:
Jonathan Hernandez (22-RH): 14 GS, 76.0 IP, 5.68 ERA <- Rangers #8 Prospect
Edgar Arredondo (22-RH): 13 GS, 65.1 IP, 4.82 ERA

--Multiple levels, but currently at AA. Stats at AA
Tyler Phillips (21-RH): 9GS, 41.1 IP, 7.19 ERA @AA <- Rangers #13 Prospect
Brock Burke (22-LH): 4 GS, 17.2 IP, 4.58 ERA <- Rangers #9 Prospect
Ronald Herrera (24-RH): 4 GS, 18.2 IP, 9.64 ERA
Jason Bahr (24-RH): 3 GS, 16.2 IP, 5.40 ERA

Richelson Pena (25) is at this level, but hasn't pitched in 2 weeks: 3GS, 8.78

-- No longer at this level
Palumbo (24) had 10 GS, 53.2 IP, 3.19 ERA @AA
Pedro Payano (24) had 8 GS, 42.2 IP, 4.43 ERA @AA


A+:
Reid Anderson (23-RH-17th Rd 2016): 15 GS, 75.0 IP, 4.08 ERA
Sal Mendez (24-LH-40th Rd 2013) : 8 GS, 73.0 IP, 2.22 ERA, 18 G
Alex Eubanks (23-RH-14th Rd 2017): 5 GS, 19G, 56.1 IP, 2.40 ERA

--Multiple levels, but currently at A+
Jake Latz (23-LH-11th Rd 2014): 11 GS, 58.0 IP, 1.76 ERA @A+ (had 2 GS @A)
John King (24-LH-10th Rd 2017) 9 GS, 48.0 IP, 1.88 ERA @A+ (had 5GS @ A)
Collin Wiles (25-RH-1 Rd 2012): 2 GS, 9.2 IP, 3.72 ERA @A+

-- No longer at this level:
Jason Bahr (24): 11 GS, 58.0 IP, 1.71 ERA
Tyler Phillips (21): 6 GS, 37.2 IP, 1.19 ERA

A:
Tim Brennan (22-RH-7th Rd 2018): 13 GS, 78.0 IP, 3.58 ERA, 0.962 WHIP
Yerry Rodriguez (21-RH-Intl): 13 GS, 73.2 IP, 2.08 ERA, 0.896 WHIP
Hans Crouse (20-RH-2Rd 2017): 11 GS, 47.0 IP, 4.02 ERA, 1.106 WHIP <- Rangers #1 Prospect
Ronny Henriquez (19-RH-Intl): 10 GS, 43.2 IP, 3.50 ERA <- Rangers #30 Prospect
Tyree Thompson (22-RH-26th Rd 2016): 9 GS, 47.1 IP, 2.85 ERA
Cole Winn (19-RH-1 Rd 2018): 8GS, 26.1 IP, 6.15 ERA <- Rangers #2 Prospect
--

-- No longer at this level:
King: 5GS, 3.42 ERA
Latz: 2 GS, 0.90 ERA

Others:
Owen White (19-RH) <- Rangers #12 Prospect. Drafted 2018
Cole Ragans (21-LH) <- Rangers #14 Prospect ** 2nd TJ** May 2019
AJ Alexy (21-RH) <- Rangers #20 Prospect Injured
Mason Englert (19-RH) <- Rangers #23 Prospect ** TJ** April 2019
YoMen (24-LH) <- Rangers #26 Prospect Injured, **no** TJ
Kyle Cody (24-RH) <- Rangers #28 Prospect **TJ** July 2018

Joe Palumbo being called up to pitch tomorrow, giving Minor the day off for rest.

It will be Palumbo's 3rd game at the big league level, and Rangers could use an Opener.

Looks like in a game to measure how we match up with the Twins we go: Sampson - Chavez - Palumbo

Maybe the plan is to give the Twins SO much success, they get over confident.

Quote:

---

Vladamir Guerrero was notorious for swinging at pitches out of the strike zone. Career 38.9%. He was at 43.8% and 45.7% his final season in 2011. It is an interesting stat, but has its flaws.

---

Not saying the stat tells the full story. But I'll tell you what, if Odor can consistently hit .320 while swinging at everything, I won't ever again imply he might need to swing at less out of the zone pitches.

DallasAg 94 said:

---

Joe Palumbo being called up to pitch tomorrow, giving Minor the day off for rest.

---

The Texas Rangers have scratched Mike Minor from his scheduled start on Sunday, and will start Joe Palumbo instead, the team announced today. The Rangers are saying this is simply to give Minor a longer break heading into the second half.

This is a...curious decision. Minor has already been replaced on the All Star roster by Shane Bieber, so he still presumably won't pitch Tuesday. He was slated to pitch against the Astros on Saturday after the All Star Break, which would be a day more than normal rest if he were to start Sunday. And the Rangers are in the playoff hunt, so one would think the Rangers would want to maximize his starts, particularly against a team like Minnesota.

If he isn't hurt, as the Rangers indicate, one immediately has to wonder if there is a potential trade in the works. Minor having a Cy Young Award caliber season and under contract through 2020 for cheap has been seen as one of the most attractive options on the trade market for potential buyers. And the Houston Astros a team lacking starting pitching depth just lost Corbin Martin to Tommy John surgery, while the New York Yankees are potentially without Luis Severino through August, and the Boston Red Sox now have a hole in their rotation with the decision to move Nathan Eovaldi to the bullpen.

The decision to skip Minor could simply be what the Rangers have stated an opportunity to give him extra rest. But it is odd, and it wouldn't be surprising if there were some other issues at work. This is something to keep an eye on.

Pedro Payano making his debut today.

1.0 IP, 1 BB, 0 H, 0 ER

Andrus with a fantastic play to double off the guy at 1st.

Rangers, Minor decide on extended rest rather than pitching in All-Star Game. Here's why

MINNEAPOLIS
The long, strange trip Mike Minor has taken to his first All-Star selection took another odd twist Saturday.
He's not going to pitch Sunday for the Texas Rangers, who will give the left-hander an extended break in an effort to manage his innings for the second half.
There's nothing strange about that.
However, Minor had to be replaced on the American League team because he was scheduled to pitch Sunday and would be ineligible to pitch Tuesday in the All-Star Game at Cleveland.

So, he's technically eligible again, but MLB has already replaced him on the roster.
Huh. Or is it, huh?
Minor was in on the decision-making with manager Chris Woodward and pitching coach Julio Rangel.

"When you look at it, if we're going to do this, I could have pitched," Minor said. "We made that decision after other decisions. It's a weird situation. It's not fun to think about. When you think about the season and the collective effort of the team, it's the best situation."
Minor pitched Tuesday against the Los Angeles Angels, laboring through 3 1/3 innings on 110 pitches. He will start the third game after the All-Star break next Saturday, giving him 10 days' rest.
Minor has been one of the best pitchers in baseball this season, and his innings have spiked dramatically over where he was a season ago. Minor has thrown 117 innings, which is third in the league, and 1,863 pitches, which is fifth.
Lance Lynn is fifth in innings (115) and fourth in pitches (1,911). He started Thursday and will open the second half Thursday when the Rangers faced the Houston Astros.
Minor said that not pitching Tuesday will give him motivation to earn a second All-Star berth next season. For now, though, he is more concerned about the Rangers chasing down a playoff spot.
"We've been talking about it. The decision wasn't made until yesterday," Minor said. "Ten days off now is better than the short leash of last year: That was the thing we talked about. Woody talked about taking me out early. I don't like that. I like pitching until I'm pretty much done. Either I'm tired or not throwing strikes or they're hitting the ball around on me. I'd rather do this."
The Rangers will recall left-hander Joe Palumbo to pitch Sunday, though they will likely use an opener ahead of him.

Down 5-1 in the 7th.... shouldn't we be pinch hitting for Mathis here?

KT 90 said:

---

Down 5-1 in the 7th.... shouldn't we be pinch hitting for Mathis here?

---

And obviously woody knows what he is doing.... mathis delivers with an RBI single

If traded... it better be a haul.

With the Astros losing Martin, NYY losing Severino and Boston moving Eovaldi, as mentioned in your previous post... that to me, would tell JD the teams they are chasing have holes.

My message, if I'm Woody is, "would you prefer pitching in the ASG, or going after the Cy Young?"

WOW... Calhoun with a shot.

Calhoun! Lead is reduced to 5-4, still in the 7th.

If Minor is traded, I'd expect Lynn, Pence and possibly Choo to not be too far behind him.

Having said that JD and Woody better be prepared for the backlash in the locker room when we're in the middle of a WC hunt.

gigem1223 said:

---

If Minor is traded, I'd expect Lynn, Pence and possibly Choo to not be too far behind him.

Having said that JD and Woody better be prepared for the backlash in the locker room when we're in the middle of a WC hunt.

---

I'd be sad if they blew up this team that is oh so fun to watch.

If they do it, WE BETTER get some really good prospects this time. These guys aren't scrubs. The Darvish / Hamels trades still sting, but Calhoun is making it more bearable to stomach lately.

gigem1223 said:

---

If Minor is traded, I'd expect Lynn, Pence and possibly Choo to not be too far behind him.

Having said that JD and Woody better be prepared for the backlash in the locker room when we're in the middle of a WC hunt.

---

This is the start thing to do. We could get some decent prospects for these players, and none of them are likely to sustain this level of play for much longer.

Choo and Pence are both really old. Minor has had an ace-like season, but isn't likely to be able to sustain it over the next 3-4 years, and Lynn is just a decent 3-4 starter that is having a good year.

This team is not likely to make a wildcard, and it's a sellers market this year.

Huell Babineaux said:

---

This team is not likely to make a wildcard, and it's a sellers market this year.

---

I'm not sure it is a sellers, just yet.

There is enough uncertainty that some teams may just want until a move is made, until late in the process.

Is it this year that players are only eligible for post-season, if they are acquired before the trade deadline? That will certainly put pressure on teams to get something done. Especially the higher priced players.

There is only one trade deadline this year... July 31st. So there is approx 3.5 weeks to go before we hit the deadline.

Quote:

---

As of 2019, the July 31 Trade Deadline is the only trade deadline. Players may still be placed and claimed on outright waivers after July 31, but trades will no longer be permitted after that date. With regards to newly acquired players, the Aug. 31 postseason roster deadline remains in effect.

---

KT 90 said:

---

There is only one trade deadline this year... July 31st. So there is approx 3.5 weeks to go before we hit the deadline.

Quote:

---

As of 2019, the July 31 Trade Deadline is the only trade deadline. Players may still be placed and claimed on outright waivers after July 31, but trades will no longer be permitted after that date. With regards to newly acquired players, the Aug. 31 postseason roster deadline remains in effect.

---

---

I think this will be interesting.

Say you have a high salary player you put on waivers.

A team can claim the player but becomes responsible for what is left to pay. Could an interested team wait for the player release, in order to only pay the minimum?

Am I looking at that correctly?

DallasAg 94 said:

---

Schall 02 said:

---

https://sportsday.dallasnews.com/texas-rangers/rangers/2019/07/05/rougned-odor-isnt-practicing-rangers-preaching-teammate-might-telling-wrong-things#_ga=2.101094658.241204644.1562213294-1276148424.1494030793

---

I think that article has the correct format of information... the problem is the analysis is terrible.

The article uses Gallo as an example of listening to Woody and the approach to reduce the strike zone.

What does the data suggest?

K%
Gallo
2017: 36.8%
2018: 35.9%
2019: 35.9%

Odor:
2014: 17.0%
2015: 16.8%
2016: 21.4%
2017: 24.9%
2018: 23.7%
2019: 31.7%

Gallo is hardly an example I would use to show a change in approach. His K% is the same before and after. In fact, if you were to just look at the numbers, Odor's K% is up 30% over his typical season average. Shocking. Well, not really. If you look at 2018, in May, Odor had a K% of 33.3%. He was 23.2% in June. In fact, he was 22.0% in the 2nd half of the season. That still suggests to me that Odor doesn't come to ST ready to go. It also suggests that Gallo is no better off with the new approach than he was.

It is widely accepted that LATAM players don't walk. The article suggests Andrus is giving Odor poor advice. To me, it only reinforces their mentality. But, get back to me when Gallo has a lower K% than Odor, if you want to use him as an example of discipline at the plate.

---

Too bad that doesn't tell you everything there is to know about his approach to the game. k% is not the end all be all stat

Gil Renard said:

---

Odor is one of the worst players In baseball and has been for some time. What a game for him though. Jeez 'would rather get punched in May than knocked out in October' Guy gets a hit and has to show boat. Somebody pls ear hole his ***** ass

---

Big words from a Blue Jays fan

TXAggie2011 said:

---

Odor has never bordered on stardom. His best years have been closer to the definition of average as anything.

Last year were his best set of macros. 2.7 WAR, .505 WAA, 162WL of .504.

Solid sarter quality, WAR could have been higher if he had more gamesbut was also carried by what's so far a huge defensive outlier of a year.

OPS+ was still only 97 and the overall body of work was not build-a-team-around-it-quality.

And that year is sandwiched by a trash 2017 and a 2019 that's so far been trash, too.

If Odor has a strong July, then come back and talk him up as a potential star.

---

https://www.mlb.com/video/can-odor-be-american-league-mvp-/c-1165017783

PatAg said:

---

Too bad that doesn't tell you everything there is to know about his approach to the game. k% is not the end all be all stat

---

Thank you for pointing out how idiotic that statement was. He essentially just said that if two people travel 100 miles - one by automobile, one by walking - their approach is the same because the distance traveled is identical.

Anyone who suggests Joey doesn't have a drastically different approach at the plate needs to spend a bit more time watching and learning the game. It is clear as day. As a microcosm, seeing him take a called 3rd strike down the heart of the plate with two outs and the bases loaded late in yesterday's game tells you he's looking/thinking differently.

MooreTrucker said:

---

Odor's "stardom" is as a "character" not as a baseball player.

---

@25, Odor is currently 20th All-Time for HRs by a AL 2B'er.

Active players ahead of him?

1. Cano (36): 2078 G, 311 HR <- HR totals down since testing positive for banned substance
3. Kinsler (37): 1801 G, 248 <- Made MLB debut at 24
11. Dozier (32): 955 G, 167 <- Made his MLB debut at 25.
15: Pedroia (35): 1512 G, 140 <- I believe he is on the 60IL, and speculation of retirement (knee)
17. Zobrist (38): 1190 G, 127 <- Made MLB debut at 25. 1st full season @ 28
19. Schoop (27): 707 G, 119 <- Very similar statistics as Odor.
20. Odor (25): 745 G, 116

Barring injury, Odor is highly likely to reach 17th, passing Zobrist, who is on leave from the Cubs, and Orta (currently #16 @ 128), remaining behind Schoop.

What I don't know, is how many of Odor's HRs are not supposed to be counted because the pitcher wasn't a quality pitcher. We'll have to rely on Grape for such statistical awareness.

Assuming he can find a team to play for next year, being sub-mediocre... He'll likely pass Pedroia who has played in 9G in the past 2 seasons, and there is speculation issues with his knee may force him to retire.

I know HRs are an obscure statistic to follow, but worth noting that Odor will climb the ranks quickly, once he reaches his prime years.

Doorbell said:

---

PatAg said:

---

Too bad that doesn't tell you everything there is to know about his approach to the game. k% is not the end all be all stat

---

Thank you for pointing out how idiotic that statement was. He essentially just said that if two people travel 100 miles - one by automobile, one by walking - their approach is the same because the distance traveled is identical.

Anyone who suggests Joey doesn't have a drastically different approach at the plate needs to spend a bit more time watching and learning the game. It is clear as day. As a microcosm, seeing him take a called 3rd strike down the heart of the plate with two outs and the bases loaded late in yesterday's game tells you he's looking/thinking differently.

---

I'm guessing neither of you read the DMN article Schall linked.

I'll help you:

Quote:

---

Joey Gallo gets it. He bought in early, working to cut down on what might have been the biggest strike zone in ball. He still bears some of his bad traits, Woodward said, but they're contained in a manageable strike zone.

---

That implies his K% should have come down. But it hasn't. He is no longer swinging at bad pitches, but still striking out with similar frequency.

Quote:

---

On the other end of the spectrum, we have the Rangers' second baseman. Through work with Luis Ortiz, Roogie has corrected some flaws. His swing path, in particular, is better.


But he's still chasing pitches out of the strike zone. Especially pitches way up in the zone. Pitches that even Gallo shouldn't swing at.
"He just needs to narrows his strike zone," Woodward said. "He does that, and he's swinging like he is right now, he'll do a lot of damage. He'll get a lot of hits and a lot of homers."

---

I never said Gallo's approach is not different. The article even suggests that even Odor's approach has changed and IIRC, I posted statistics that Odor swinging at pitches out of the strike zone has gone down.

Gallo has the same strikeout percentage this year, as he did last year. You can't say Gallo is the example to use to bring down your K%, when Gallo's K% is relatively unchanged... AND... higher than Odors. In fact, Odor's K% has gone UP this year... even though him swinging at pitches out of the strikezone has gone down.

I think Odor gets off to a poor start and improves through the middle of the season. His K% is similar to the 1st half last year, and I expect it will drop for July/August, like it traditionally does.

Nice dig by Santana, for the 2nd out of the 1st.

They may not think CF is Gallo's future, but the boy can play the position

It's really unbelievable that Gallo and his cannon just got Buxton at 3rd. WOW!

FINALLY A BUNT SINGLE WHEN THAT DAMN SHIFT IS BEGGING YOU TO PUNISH THEM

Gallo lays one down