Lets hear your case for Larry Biitner and Toby Harrah.

AgFan1999 said:

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I'll just leave this here - All-Disappointment Team

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What's that got to do with all-time players?

Just illustrating the point that everyone on the thread has their opinion about something.

CorpsAg11 said:

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Farmer1906 said:

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CorpsAg11 said:

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No offense to Cal and Ozzie, but its amazing how weak the list of all time great shortstops is and how strong the current crop of young, potential future HOF SS is right now. It is like a golden age of shortstops.

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I thought we were just in the golden age about a decade ago with ARod, Jeter, Nomar, & Tejada.

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Only one of those guys was anywhere near as good as Correa, Seager, Lindor, etc and he switched to 3B half way thru his career...

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Those three are very good but better, yet alone far and away better, than Jeter and Nomar? I don't agree with that. Better argument with Tejada, I'll say that.

Will they end up having a better career? That's quite possible.

Bagwell was a better player than Biggio.

AgFan1999 said:

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I'll just leave this here - All-Disappointment Team

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There's a trash-talking thread. This isn't it. This has nothing to do w/ the topic at hand.

AgFan1999 said:

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Just illustrating the point that everyone on the thread has their opinion about something.

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True, but the thread is about all-time greats. You posted something that has nothing to do with all-time greats.

_lefraud_ said:

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The astro Homers crack me up, they don't even try and hide their favoritism, and Biggio is always the classic example.

Hell, if they wanted to argue Altuve as a top 5 guy already, I honestly wouldn't have much a problem with it. Give Altuve 3 more years, and he will surpass Biggio (if he hasn't already).

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If we're looking at a 3 year window? Sure.

If Altuve can replicate another 3-4 years of what he's done the last few and, yes, I think he'll have a seat at the GOAT table for second basemen. It'll be based on prime's and not counting stats, but still.

I'm not sure calling Biggio about as good as Alomar really all that homerish? What are we talking about, guys who should be ranked 5-10 all time at their position? How many Astro fans said claimed Biggio was the best? It seems more like sensitive fans from south of Dallas.

Haha Jeter is not even a top 10 shortstop if he doesn't have such a long career and play on so many stacked teams. I'm not saying guys should not be given credit for longevity, but was Jeter actually all that feared? How many years was he the best shortstop in the game? Based on WAR I think it's 2 seasons... Jeter's defense and power did not even come close to the shortstops we're seeing play now.

If you look at the pace those 3 (Correa, Seager, Lindor) are on, they could all be top 5 shortstops by just maintaining the same level of production for 15 years (not a guarantee obviously)..

Then you have guys like Boegarts, Moncada, Russell, the position is just so deep right now. It's no longer thought of as a position for a defensive specialist with no power.

I think the issue I have w/ your initial comment is it seems to dismiss how good Nomar was. I'll agree that Correa, Lindor, etc have the chance, and look to be on pace to, be better than Jeter. But to say that Nomar was never as good as these young ones today is to ignore how amazing he was until injuries derailed everything. His first 4 full seasons, the guy hit .306, .323, .357, and .372. He had an OPS over 1.000 in his 3rd and 4th seasons. He'd be a HOFer, but his body just fell apart. It's a shame how easily we've forgotten how good he was. I was even floored looking at his stats, as I had forgotten as well.


https://www.baseball-reference.com/players/g/garcino01.shtml

Ha. Yes. When Jeter was hitting .320+ with 60 XBH and 20+ SB a year, yes, you bet he was feared.


He didn't post 7.5 and 8.0 WARs as a 24 and 25 year old for no reason. He didn't post 11 seasons in the top 10 of offensive WAR for no reason. He didn't have 4 seasons in the top 10 WAR for all AL players for no reason.

Right now, btw, Kyle Seager's 6.9 WAR last year as a 28 year old is the only one above 6.0 out of Correa, Lindor, and Seager. Its the only time any of the three have been in the top 10 WARs for their league.

And as far as power, Seager's slugging % is all of 7 points higher than Jeter's career. And 15 points lower than Jeter's through the same age.


Correa may top 6.0 and be in the top 10 this season. Maybe. He has the best shot, by far, of the three to become a top 5 all-time shortstop.

I remember facing GT at the '92 regional in Gainesville. They had Nomar and Varitek on the same squad.

Correa has almost missed the last ~26 games now and will likely miss around another 10. It's pretty tough to post a top 10 WAR missing a quarter of the season unless your Trout and you're going to finish as an all timer.

RetiredAg said:

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I think the issue I have w/ your initial comment is it seems to dismiss how good Nomar was.

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You are correct, I had forgotten how good Nomar was early on. That's fair.

TXAggie2011 said:

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Ha. Yes. When Jeter was hitting .320+ with 60 XBH and 20+ SB a year, yes, you bet he was feared.

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No one was saying that Jeter didn't have some high batting averages. But to be "feared" it helps to have a little "pop". Jeter had only one season where he exceeded a .900 OPS. I would say Lindor, Boegarts, and Turner are just about on pace with Jeter through 3/4 seasons, but Correa and Seager are far ahead of where he was...

And they all play better defense

I was Team Nomar > Team Jeter. Over the long run, looks like I picked the wrong side.

jja79 said:

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Lets hear your case for Larry Biitner and Toby Harrah.

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Harrah was an all-star at TWO different positions, and played over 240 games at a third position. He was a four time all star, and finished top 20 in MVP voting in TWO different decades.

Had he not switched over to 3rd halfway through his career, he could probably be considered a top 3 SS all-time, and is easily the best SS to ever helm from WV.

CorpsAg11 said:

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TXAggie2011 said:

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Ha. Yes. When Jeter was hitting .320+ with 60 XBH and 20+ SB a year, yes, you bet he was feared.

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No one was saying that Jeter didn't have some high batting averages. But to be "feared" it helps to have a little "pop". Jeter had only one season where he exceeded a .900 OPS. I would say Lindor, Boegarts, and Turner are just about on pace with Jeter through 3/4 seasons, but Correa and Seager are far ahead of where he was...

And they all play better defense

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Seager has had one season with an OPS exceeding .788. And that season was .859. Jeter topped that 5 times and tied it another time.

Boegarts? Jeter's career OPS is higher than his best season.

Turner? We've got about one combined season of a look at him and it's been up and down.

Yeah, after looking more at Jeter, I could replace Ozzie with him. 3,400+ hits. 500+ doubles. I know it's easy to hate Jeter, but "overrated" doesn't rack up 3,400 hits and hit .310 over 20 seasons.

I would take Jeter over Ozzie and I don't like Jeter.

I feel that we must include Jeter's off the field numbers.

W said:

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2B

Morgan -- among his many amazing stats is drawing over 100 walks in 8 seasons...despite the pitchers knowing that Bench and Perez were up next. His career OBP is 121 points higher than his career BA.

Sandberg
Biggio

however in 2 or 3 years...Cano and/or Altuve will likely replace Biggio in the top 3 and maybe Sandberg too. He really benefited from Wrigley Field.

just for fun...Sandberg's career OPS at Wrigley was .854. His career OPS in the Astrodome was .700

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good time to revisit this thread as Altuve wins his first MVP award (and earlier won his 3rd batting title).

He ties Sandberg now with 1 MVP award apiece. Still trails Morgan who won 2 MVP's. And of course Biggio, Alomar, and Cano have not / never won an MVP.

Altuve is going to be #2 on this list in 1 or 2 years at his current pace

Altuve is 27 years old. Lets image he gets 2 more batting titles, 3-4 more silver sluggers, a couple gold gloves and another MVP by the time he retires in the next 8 years or so.

Does he pass Morgan based on that?

If your top 3 at 2nd base are Morgan, Sandberg, and Biggio than yeah, I suppose Altuve could look pretty competitive in a few years but he still probably needs to make it to 1000 career games before we start projecting him as top 2 all time.

Speaking of All time great second basemen, Bobby Doerr passed away the other day. I believe he was the oldest former major leaguer alive.

As a 19 year old in 1937, he played with a 37 year old named Lefty Grove and spent the next few years corralling the right side of the infield with a guy named Jimmie Foxx.

His partner at SS was a guy named Pesky (as in the pole) and after fighting in the war, he helped welcome a guy name Ted Williams to Boston.

Not very many guys left that were around for all that.

RetiredAg said:

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Farmer1906 said:

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Ozzie has no business on here. It's A Rod and it isn't close.

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As I said in the OP, I didn't really consider a guy that played a large percentage of their games at another position. A-Rod played 1272 games at SS and 1194 at 3B. Yount and Banks missed out for the same reason. I was surprised at the number of legends at SS that played a significant time elsewhere.

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I think this is a dumb caveat. If someone like A-Rod put up all-time great numbers at SS, why wouldn't you consider him as an all-time great at SS?

Edit: I just realized I responded to a 3 month old thread. Even better, one in which I had responded to previously. Still though, Biggio > Odor, Keuchel > Nolan, Altuve > Beltre.

I think if you're going to have that caveat you have to have a "utility" position or something.

2B - I'd take Alomar, Sandberg, and Morgan from the modern era. Morgan was the greatest of all time, so you have to bump either Sandberg or Alomar to make room for Altuve some day. What is it with Houston and 2nd basemen? Morgan, Biggio, Altuve...

bigjag19 said:

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Pudge over Piazza?

Ozzie certainly was great, but overall any better than Jeter or Nomar?

I would put Clemens over Ryan for sure and in top 3.

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Piazza was a horrible catcher, end of discussion!

If your actually serious, go look at his catching stats...

oldschool87 said:

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bigjag19 said:

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Pudge over Piazza?

Ozzie certainly was great, but overall any better than Jeter or Nomar?

I would put Clemens over Ryan for sure and in top 3.

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Piazza was a horrible catcher, end of discussion!

If your actually serious, go look at his catching stats...

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Pudge was also #1 in at least 4 hitting categories... #1 As in best ever... and for the record I am an Astros fan.

W said:

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W said:

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2B

Morgan -- among his many amazing stats is drawing over 100 walks in 8 seasons...despite the pitchers knowing that Bench and Perez were up next. His career OBP is 121 points higher than his career BA.

Sandberg
Biggio

however in 2 or 3 years...Cano and/or Altuve will likely replace Biggio in the top 3 and maybe Sandberg too. He really benefited from Wrigley Field.

just for fun...Sandberg's career OPS at Wrigley was .854. His career OPS in the Astrodome was .700

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good time to revisit this thread as Altuve wins his first MVP award (and earlier won his 3rd batting title).

He ties Sandberg now with 1 MVP award apiece. Still trails Morgan who won 2 MVP's. And of course Biggio, Alomar, and Cano have not / never won an MVP.

Altuve is going to be #2 on this list in 1 or 2 years at his current pace

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Oh, I fully expect Altuve to end his career at #1 on the list. And I expect, assuming he continues doing what he is doing, that it won't even be close between him and #2.

BowSowy said:

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RetiredAg said:

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Farmer1906 said:

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Ozzie has no business on here. It's A Rod and it isn't close.

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As I said in the OP, I didn't really consider a guy that played a large percentage of their games at another position. A-Rod played 1272 games at SS and 1194 at 3B. Yount and Banks missed out for the same reason. I was surprised at the number of legends at SS that played a significant time elsewhere.

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I think this is a dumb caveat. If someone like A-Rod put up all-time great numbers at SS, why wouldn't you consider him as an all-time great at SS?

Edit: I just realized I responded to a 3 month old thread. Even better, one in which I had responded to previously. Still though, Biggio > Odor, Keuchel > Nolan, Altuve > Beltre.

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That's fine that you think it's a dumb caveat. Feel free to add a "utility" position as mentioned by TXAggie2011.

But that last sentence is odd. The first comparison is silly as nobody has ever claimed otherwise. The second is just flat out wrong. The third is meaningless as they play entirely different positions, although Altuve is on course to be a first ballot guy and Beltre is a lock for the first ballot.