It's a spit in the face to have Biggio listed over Alomar. I think Alomar is easily in the top 2/3, especially post wwII.

I'd probably put Goose Gossage over Hoffman at closer/relief pitcher

I'd put Wagner over Hoffman too.

Clemens is one of the greatest of all-time, but you have to ignore the cloud of steroids.

W said:

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2B

Morgan -- among his many amazing stats is drawing over 100 walks in 8 seasons...despite the pitchers knowing that Bench and Perez were up next. His career OBP is 121 points higher than his career BA.

Sandberg
Biggio

however in 2 or 3 years...Cano and/or Altuve will likely replace Biggio in the top 3 and maybe Sandberg too. He really benefited from Wrigley Field.

just for fun...Sandberg's career OPS at Wrigley was .854. His career OPS in the Astrodome was .700

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Astros fan, huh? There's absolutely no way Biggio is ahead of Alomar. The defensive superiority of Alomar is not even debatable. Then, I'll even take Alomar the hitter over Biggio.

Alomar has higher AVG, OBP, SLG, OPS, OPS+, and WAR (and played 3 fewer seasons). Seriously, I highly doubt there's a baseball person outside of Houston that would ever put Biggio ahead of Alomar.

Farmer1906 said:

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I'd put Wagner over Hoffman too.

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Perhaps. I have seen the comparisons of the more advanced metrics and there's a compelling argument. Neither should be in the Hall though.

Biggie was definitely great, but not a transcendent 2B.

I put Alomar over Biggio overall, but hard to top that 5 year 94-98 stretch Biggio had.

bigjag19 said:

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Biggie was definitely great, but not a transcendent 2B.

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Absolutely. He was a great player. I do think it would be interesting to see if he would have made the Hall had he not hung on those last couple seasons chasing 3,000.

Biggio's biggest thing is being an all star caliber player at 3 remarkably different positions.

A. how do you leave a Pete Rose off the list?
B. where the eff do you put him position wise? Should you add a "utility" position in lieu of a DH?

He won a Silver Slugger at first, and two gold gloves in the outfield.

BigPuma said:

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A. how do you leave a Pete Rose off the list?
B. where the eff do you put him position wise? Should you add a "utility" position in lieu of a DH?

He won a Silver Slugger at first, and two gold gloves in the outfield.

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Point A is addressed by point B. Of the 6 players I have listed in LF (Bonds/Williams/Henderson) and RF (Ruth, Aaron, Clemente), who are you taking off for Rose? Henderson perhaps, but Henderson is the all-time leader in runs and stolen bases. He also has a significantly higher WAR than Rose (110.8 vs 79.1).

But, as I mentioned in the OP, there are guys that are going to be left off that are legends. CF is a great example of that. No DiMaggio. No Griffey. I do think that by the end of his career, the conversation will be about Trout being the greatest CF ever.

BMX Bandit said:

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I put Alomar over Biggio overall, but hard to top that 5 year 94-98 stretch Biggio had.

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I would say they're about on par with each other and neither in the top 3 at arguably a pretty weak position.

How about this all time top 3 list. A whole lot of old timers on here too.

If we ignore everyone before 1950

Catcher
1. Carter
2. Bench
3. Piazza

1st Base
1. Gehrig
2. Pujols
3. Foxx

1. Pujols
2. Bagwell
3. Helton

2nd Base
1. Hornsby
2. Collins
3. Lajoie

1. Morgan
2. Cano
3. Carew

3rd Base
1. Schmidt
2. Boggs
3. Mathews

Shortstop
1. Wagner
2. Rodriguez
3. Ripken

1. Rodriguez
2. Ripken
3. Yount

Left Field
1. Bonds
2. Williams
3. Henderson

1. Bonds
2. Henderson
3. Yastrzemski

Center Field
1. Mayes
2. Cobb
3. Mantle

1. Mayes

2. Mantle
3. Griffey

Right Field
1. Ruth
2. Musial
3. Aaron

1. Aaron
2. Clemente
3. Robinson

Starter
1. W Johnson
2. Young
3. Nichols

1. Clemens
2. R Johnson
3. Gibson

Relief
1. Eckersley
2. Gossage
3. Rivera

Farmer1906 said:

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BMX Bandit said:

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I put Alomar over Biggio overall, but hard to top that 5 year 94-98 stretch Biggio had.

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I would say they're about on par with each other and neither in the top 3 at arguably a pretty weak position.

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No, they're really not on par with each other.

Alomar - 17 seasons
.300 AVG
.371 OBP
.443 SLG
.814 OPS
116 OPS+
2724 Hits
1134 RBI
474 SB
66.8 WAR
12-time All-Star
10-time Gold Glove

Biggio - 20 seasons
.281 AVG
.363 OBP
.433 SLG
.796 OPS
112 OPS+
3060 Hits
1175 RBI
414 SB
65.1 WAR
7-time All-Star
4-time Gold Glove

And who would you put ahead of Alomar? Sure, we can go w/ guys like Nap Lajoie. I could see Jackie Robinson. But I don't see anyone clearly ahead of Alomar for that 3rd spot. Certainly not Biggio.

If you go the WAR route - you gotta take Clemente off the list for Musial. And Clemens and Young go on before Pedro and Gibson. Considering all of those guys I listed are top 11 all time WAR. And then technically Tris Speaker bumps Mantle.

I still don't think you can leave the hit king off the list though. Even if as i mentioned you add a utility/DH category and put him there.

RetiredAg said:

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Farmer1906 said:

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BMX Bandit said:

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I put Alomar over Biggio overall, but hard to top that 5 year 94-98 stretch Biggio had.

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I would say they're about on par with each other and neither in the top 3 at arguably a pretty weak position.

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No, they're really not on par with each other.

Alomar - 17 seasons
.300 AVG
.371 OBP
.443 SLG
.814 OPS
116 OPS+
2724 Hits
1134 RBI
474 SB
66.8 WAR
12-time All-Star
10-time Gold Glove

Biggio - 20 seasons
.281 AVG
.363 OBP
.433 SLG
.796 OPS
112 OPS+
3060 Hits
1175 RBI
414 SB
65.1 WAR
7-time All-Star
4-time Gold Glove

And who would you put ahead of Alomar? Sure, we can go w/ guys like Nap Lajoie. I could see Jackie Robinson. But I don't see anyone clearly ahead of Alomar for that 3rd spot. Certainly not Biggio.

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You don't see any similarities in these numbers?

WAR7
42.8 vs 41.6 (1.2)

WAR
66.8 vs 65.1 (1.7)

JAWS
54.8 vs 53.4 (1.4)

OBP
.371 vs .363 (.008)

SLUG
.443 vs .433 (.010)

OPS+
116 vs 112 (4)

RBI
1175 vs 1134 (41)

RUN
1844 vs 1508 (336)

HR
291 vs 210 (81)

SB
474 vs 414 (60)

BigPuma said:

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If you go the WAR route - you gotta take Clemente off the list for Musial. And Clemens and Young go on before Pedro and Gibson. Considering all of those guys I listed are top 11 all time WAR. And then technically Tris Speaker bumps Mantle.

I still don't think you can leave the hit king off the list though. Even if as i mentioned you add a utility/DH category and put him there.

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Fair point, although I wasn't using WAR as the only criteria. I left Rose off because I had no position for him.

Alomar - 17 seasons
.300 AVG
.371 OBP
.443 SLG
.814 OPS
116 OPS+
2724 Hits
1134 RBI
474 SB
66.8 WAR
12-time All-Star
10-time Gold Glove

Biggio - 20 seasons
.281 AVG
.363 OBP
.433 SLG
.796 OPS
112 OPS+
3060 Hits
1175 RBI
414 SB
65.1 WAR
7-time All-Star
4-time Gold Glove


I see one player consistently w/ better numbers, minus the cumulative numbers which are due to playing 3 extra seasons. Biggio is a great player, but he's not better than Alomar. Not at all. Nobody outside of Houston would place Biggio ahead of Alomar.

RetiredAg said:

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Alomar - 17 seasons
.300 AVG
.371 OBP
.443 SLG
.814 OPS
116 OPS+
2724 Hits
1134 RBI
474 SB
66.8 WAR
12-time All-Star
10-time Gold Glove

Biggio - 20 seasons
.281 AVG
.363 OBP
.433 SLG
.796 OPS
112 OPS+
3060 Hits
1175 RBI
414 SB
65.1 WAR
7-time All-Star
4-time Gold Glove


I see one player consistently w/ better numbers, minus the cumulative numbers which are due to playing 3 extra seasons. Biggio is a great player, but he's not better than Alomar. Not at all. Nobody outside of Houston would place Biggio ahead of Alomar.

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About on par = better than Alomar?

Sorry. Thanks for pointing that out. He's not on par w/ Alomar either. Great player, but he's not on Alomar's level, especially when you factor in defense.

RetiredAg said:

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Sorry. Thanks for pointing that out. He's not on par w/ Alomar either. Great player, but he's not on Alomar's level, especially when you factor in defense.

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Take away Biggio's 3 extra seasons

.300
.371
.443
.814

.286
.373
.435
.807

OPS+
116 vs 116

It is uncanny how similar their numbers are and they're not about on par. This is pure head in the sand ness or bias. I am not sure which.

No offense to Cal and Ozzie, but its amazing how weak the list of all time great shortstops is and how strong the current crop of young, potential future HOF SS is right now. It is like a golden age of shortstops.

CorpsAg11 said:

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No offense to Cal and Ozzie, but its amazing how weak the list of all time great shortstops is and how strong the current crop of young, potential future HOF SS is right now. It is like a golden age of shortstops.

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I thought we were just in the golden age about a decade ago with ARod, Jeter, Nomar, & Tejada.

And conveniently ignore defense.

Would this make you feel better? - if you take away the 3 seasons where Biggio was chasing numbers, they are somewhat similar hitters. But, when you account for the whole player (defense as well), then the disparity is obvious and not even close.

But, ironic that you accuse me of having my head in the sand, yet you leave Pudge off your list. You don't seem to be much of a fan of the defensive element to a player. Oh well, I guess Houston fan gonna Houston fan.

Farmer1906 said:

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CorpsAg11 said:

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No offense to Cal and Ozzie, but its amazing how weak the list of all time great shortstops is and how strong the current crop of young, potential future HOF SS is right now. It is like a golden age of shortstops.

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I thought we were just in the golden age about a decade ago with ARod, Jeter, Nomar, & Tejada.

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Only one of those guys was anywhere near as good as Correa, Seager, Lindor, etc and he switched to 3B half way thru his career...

My list is purely WAR7, but yes, it is because I am a Houston fan and I hate on a former Houston player.

You brought up those 3 seasons, not me. I just showed there that there is little difference and not really helping your argument when you bring them up.

I know we're talking 2B, but Biggio has 100+ games at 4 positions. For some reason, some people hold that against players on here. I would say improvements a players value.

CorpsAg11 said:

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Farmer1906 said:

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CorpsAg11 said:

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No offense to Cal and Ozzie, but its amazing how weak the list of all time great shortstops is and how strong the current crop of young, potential future HOF SS is right now. It is like a golden age of shortstops.

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I thought we were just in the golden age about a decade ago with ARod, Jeter, Nomar, & Tejada.

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Only one of those guys was anywhere near as good as Correa, Seager, Lindor, etc and he switched to 3B half way thru his career...

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I love Correa, but Nomar's first 4 years in the league were better than what Correa, Seager, and Lindor are doing thus far.

First 4 year average:

110 R, 198 H, 44 2B, 28 HR, 105 RBI, 13 SB 61/45 K/BB and was .337/.386/.577 with 27.6 WAR (6.9WAR/season)

This thread just turned into a great example of how each generation thinks their crop is the best.

Quote:

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It's a spit in the face to have Biggio listed over Alomar.

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I see what you did there.

But as soon as I saw that W was posting, I knew the Bagwell/Biggio campaign would start. I think you've also got to consider Caminiti at 3rd, and Ausmus at catcher. Also, when you consider Jose Cruz's park-adjusted numbers, his career HR numbers were just short of 650, a shoo-in for Cooperstown.

As for Nolan Ryan? My favorite crazy stat: led league in ERA and K's in 1987, finished 8-16.

Ryan 1987

Quote:

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I know we're talking 2B, but Biggio has 100+ games at 4 positions. For some reason, some people hold that against players on here. I would say improvements a players value.

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Hold against? Not at all. I think he was a great and highly versatile player. The discussion is about greatest players at each position. If a guy played half his career at 2 different positions, then that has to be factored in. Is A-Rod the greatest SS or 3B ever? Or both? I'd say he's neither, but that doesn't diminish how great he was. It just means he's a man without a position when it comes to this discussion.

The astro Homers crack me up, they don't even try and hide their favoritism, and Biggio is always the classic example.

Hell, if they wanted to argue Altuve as a top 5 guy already, I honestly wouldn't have much a problem with it. Give Altuve 3 more years, and he will surpass Biggio (if he hasn't already).

I'll just leave this here - All-Disappointment Team