It's a spit in the face to have Biggio listed over Alomar. I think Alomar is easily in the top 2/3, especially post wwII.
Astros fan, huh? There's absolutely no way Biggio is ahead of Alomar. The defensive superiority of Alomar is not even debatable. Then, I'll even take Alomar the hitter over Biggio.W said:
2B
Morgan -- among his many amazing stats is drawing over 100 walks in 8 seasons...despite the pitchers knowing that Bench and Perez were up next. His career OBP is 121 points higher than his career BA.
Sandberg
Biggio
however in 2 or 3 years...Cano and/or Altuve will likely replace Biggio in the top 3 and maybe Sandberg too. He really benefited from Wrigley Field.
just for fun...Sandberg's career OPS at Wrigley was .854. His career OPS in the Astrodome was .700
Perhaps. I have seen the comparisons of the more advanced metrics and there's a compelling argument. Neither should be in the Hall though.Farmer1906 said:
I'd put Wagner over Hoffman too.
Absolutely. He was a great player. I do think it would be interesting to see if he would have made the Hall had he not hung on those last couple seasons chasing 3,000.bigjag19 said:
Biggie was definitely great, but not a transcendent 2B.
Point A is addressed by point B. Of the 6 players I have listed in LF (Bonds/Williams/Henderson) and RF (Ruth, Aaron, Clemente), who are you taking off for Rose? Henderson perhaps, but Henderson is the all-time leader in runs and stolen bases. He also has a significantly higher WAR than Rose (110.8 vs 79.1).BigPuma said:
A. how do you leave a Pete Rose off the list?
B. where the eff do you put him position wise? Should you add a "utility" position in lieu of a DH?
He won a Silver Slugger at first, and two gold gloves in the outfield.
I would say they're about on par with each other and neither in the top 3 at arguably a pretty weak position.BMX Bandit said:
I put Alomar over Biggio overall, but hard to top that 5 year 94-98 stretch Biggio had.
No, they're really not on par with each other.Farmer1906 said:I would say they're about on par with each other and neither in the top 3 at arguably a pretty weak position.BMX Bandit said:
I put Alomar over Biggio overall, but hard to top that 5 year 94-98 stretch Biggio had.
You don't see any similarities in these numbers?RetiredAg said:No, they're really not on par with each other.Farmer1906 said:I would say they're about on par with each other and neither in the top 3 at arguably a pretty weak position.BMX Bandit said:
I put Alomar over Biggio overall, but hard to top that 5 year 94-98 stretch Biggio had.
Alomar - 17 seasons
.300 AVG
.371 OBP
.443 SLG
.814 OPS
116 OPS+
2724 Hits
1134 RBI
474 SB
66.8 WAR
12-time All-Star
10-time Gold Glove
Biggio - 20 seasons
.281 AVG
.363 OBP
.433 SLG
.796 OPS
112 OPS+
3060 Hits
1175 RBI
414 SB
65.1 WAR
7-time All-Star
4-time Gold Glove
And who would you put ahead of Alomar? Sure, we can go w/ guys like Nap Lajoie. I could see Jackie Robinson. But I don't see anyone clearly ahead of Alomar for that 3rd spot. Certainly not Biggio.
Fair point, although I wasn't using WAR as the only criteria. I left Rose off because I had no position for him.BigPuma said:
If you go the WAR route - you gotta take Clemente off the list for Musial. And Clemens and Young go on before Pedro and Gibson. Considering all of those guys I listed are top 11 all time WAR. And then technically Tris Speaker bumps Mantle.
I still don't think you can leave the hit king off the list though. Even if as i mentioned you add a utility/DH category and put him there.
About on par = better than Alomar?RetiredAg said:
Alomar - 17 seasons
.300 AVG
.371 OBP
.443 SLG
.814 OPS
116 OPS+
2724 Hits
1134 RBI
474 SB
66.8 WAR
12-time All-Star
10-time Gold Glove
Biggio - 20 seasons
.281 AVG
.363 OBP
.433 SLG
.796 OPS
112 OPS+
3060 Hits
1175 RBI
414 SB
65.1 WAR
7-time All-Star
4-time Gold Glove
I see one player consistently w/ better numbers, minus the cumulative numbers which are due to playing 3 extra seasons. Biggio is a great player, but he's not better than Alomar. Not at all. Nobody outside of Houston would place Biggio ahead of Alomar.
Take away Biggio's 3 extra seasonsRetiredAg said:
Sorry. Thanks for pointing that out. He's not on par w/ Alomar either. Great player, but he's not on Alomar's level, especially when you factor in defense.
I thought we were just in the golden age about a decade ago with ARod, Jeter, Nomar, & Tejada.CorpsAg11 said:
No offense to Cal and Ozzie, but its amazing how weak the list of all time great shortstops is and how strong the current crop of young, potential future HOF SS is right now. It is like a golden age of shortstops.
Farmer1906 said:I thought we were just in the golden age about a decade ago with ARod, Jeter, Nomar, & Tejada.CorpsAg11 said:
No offense to Cal and Ozzie, but its amazing how weak the list of all time great shortstops is and how strong the current crop of young, potential future HOF SS is right now. It is like a golden age of shortstops.
I love Correa, but Nomar's first 4 years in the league were better than what Correa, Seager, and Lindor are doing thus far.CorpsAg11 said:Farmer1906 said:I thought we were just in the golden age about a decade ago with ARod, Jeter, Nomar, & Tejada.CorpsAg11 said:
No offense to Cal and Ozzie, but its amazing how weak the list of all time great shortstops is and how strong the current crop of young, potential future HOF SS is right now. It is like a golden age of shortstops.
Only one of those guys was anywhere near as good as Correa, Seager, Lindor, etc and he switched to 3B half way thru his career...
I see what you did there.Quote:
It's a spit in the face to have Biggio listed over Alomar.
Hold against? Not at all. I think he was a great and highly versatile player. The discussion is about greatest players at each position. If a guy played half his career at 2 different positions, then that has to be factored in. Is A-Rod the greatest SS or 3B ever? Or both? I'd say he's neither, but that doesn't diminish how great he was. It just means he's a man without a position when it comes to this discussion.Quote:
I know we're talking 2B, but Biggio has 100+ games at 4 positions. For some reason, some people hold that against players on here. I would say improvements a players value.