aggie1906 said:

---

TXAggie2011 said:

---

Quote:

---

But at 32 he rebounds and from 35-37 he is hitting as well as he did from 25-28 years of age.

---

Except you forgot to mention that Thomas hit 18 and 12 home runs as a 36 and 37 year old because couldn't stay healthy.

And that erodes the red flag of steroids extending good health into one's latter years.

---

Who's to say he isn't completely shot at 36 if he's not on the juice?

---

Are you suggesting players can't make it past 36 without the juice?

Or maybe Frank saw that testing was coming and stopped taking the goodies. And experienced a drop back into normalcy as a result.

You can like Frank Thomas as a player but given the era and the typical late age prominence he exhibited, its a good bet he was taking something. Its not like he was alone.

Do you believe Ted Williams was a steroid user? He hit .388 with 38 home runs at age 38.

This recent exchange is why you can't cherry pick PED indicators for specific players. If you're wanting to prove PED use, you can find something on most players of that era, but rarely is it a universal indicator, especially when historical data is included.

mathguy86 said:

---

Or maybe Frank saw that testing was coming and stopped taking the goodies. And experienced a drop back into normalcy as a result.

You can like Frank Thomas as a player but given the era and the typical late age prominence he exhibited, its a good bet he was taking something. Its not like he was alone.

---

I don't like Frank Thomas.

Why'd he start the goodies back up in 2006? The start and ongoing Mitchell Report proceedings that he participated in inspired him it was OK to take steroids again?

iBrad said:

---

This recent exchange is why you can't cherry pick PED indicators for specific players. If you're wanting to prove PED use, you can find something on most players of that era, but rarely is it a universal indicator, especially when historical data is included.

---

Exactly.

I can pick stats and conclude that most greats in every era in every sport cheated because they did hit more home runs or whatever better at an older age than the rest of the folks of their era.

TXAggie2011 said:

---

Why'd he start the goodies back up in 2006? The start and ongoing Mitchell Report proceedings that he participated in inspired him it was OK to take steroids again?

---

Reason #1 at the top of the list for any player? $$$$$$

These guys were getting massive contracts to produce statistically. And yoiu cant produce if your body is getting older and cant recover from injury as fast.

Reason #2? Everyone else was doing it. If you didnt, you got left in the dust. And that means you didnt get that massive payday that everyone else got.

I'm in the camp that thinks most everyone at least dabbled in it And "it" was probably HGH as much as straight steroids for bulk. Andy Pettitte for pete's sake was doing HGH for injury recovery. And it kept him on the bump every 5th day.

How about Craig Biggio?

Never hit more than 22 home runs in his career and then hits 24 and 26 at age 38 and 39, along with 47 and 40 doubles, both above his career 162 game average.

Can't blame it on the stadium. He hit 15 and 36 in more plate appearances the season before at Minute Maid.

mathguy86 said:

---

TXAggie2011 said:

---

Why'd he start the goodies back up in 2006? The start and ongoing Mitchell Report proceedings that he participated in inspired him it was OK to take steroids again?

---

Reason #1 at the top of the list for any player? $$$$$$

These guys were getting massive contracts to produce statistically. And yoiu cant produce if your body is getting older and cant recover from injury as fast.

Reason #2? Everyone else was doing it. If you didnt, you got left in the dust. And that means you didnt get that massive payday that everyone else got.

I'm in the camp that thinks most everyone at least dabbled in it And "it" was probably HGH as much as straight steroids for bulk. Andy Pettitte for pete's sake was doing HGH for injury recovery. And it kept him on the bump every 5th day.

---

You just said he quit using them the year's prior due to incoming scrutiny and testing. I'm asking what changed. He make a bad business deal so he decided to get on them again while talking with Congress about them?

Rafael Palmeiro is on line 2 for you. He would like to discuss his Congressional testimony and subsequent positive test for steroid use, all while in the twilight of his career.

mathguy86 said:

---

Rafael Palmeiro is on line 2 for you. He would like to discuss his Congressional testimony and subsequent positive test for steroid use, all while in the twilight of his career.

---

Do you think Palmeiro stopped using steroids sometime before his Congressional testimony? If not, you're not addressing the question.

p.s. I'm still yet to say I think Frank Thomas used or did not use steroids. That's not the point. But drawing out this hoop jumping is kind of entertaining.

TXAggie2011 said:

---

How about Craig Biggio?

Never hit more than 22 home runs in his career and then hits 24 and 26 at age 38 and 39, along with 47 and 40 doubles, both above his career 162 game average.

Can't blame it on the stadium. He hit 15 and 36 in more plate appearances the season before at Minute Maid.

---

He eliminated the leg kick from his swing which improved his timing. His strikeouts also dipped from what they were in previous seasons. With that, he started pulling a lot of balls into the Crawford Boxes, as his 32-18 h/a splits for home runs over those two seasons indicates.

TXAggie2011 said:

---

How about Craig Biggio?

Never hit more than 22 home runs in his career and then hits 24 and 26 at age 38 and 39, along with 47 and 40 doubles, both above his career 162 game average.

Can't blame it on the stadium. He hit 15 and 36 in more plate appearances the season before at Minute Maid.

---

Biggie used, hth

TXAggie2011 said:

---

mathguy86 said:

---

Rafael Palmeiro is on line 2 for you. He would like to discuss his Congressional testimony and subsequent positive test for steroid use, all while in the twilight of his career.

---

Do you think Palmeiro stopped using steroids sometime before his Congressional testimony? If not, you're not addressing the question.

p.s. I'm still yet to say I think Frank Thomas used or did not use steroids. That's not the point. But drawing out this hoop jumping is kind of entertaining.

---

It is a fact the Rafael Palmeiro testified before Congress on March 15, 2005. It is a fact that he was suspended by MLB for testing positive for steroids. The suspension was dated Aug 1, 2005, 10 days after testing positive for Stanolozol.

I'm done.

TXAggie2011 said:

---

How about Craig Biggio?

Never hit more than 22 home runs in his career and then hits 24 and 26 at age 38 and 39, along with 47 and 40 doubles, both above his career 162 game average.

Can't blame it on the stadium. He hit 15 and 36 in more plate appearances the season before at Minute Maid.

---

Can you blame it on the swing change an approach?

At 40 he popped 21 homers. Look at his chart.



6/21 didn't even travel 360 feet. He had a 345-foot homer.

At 41 he cranked out 10.



He clearly was aiming for the short porch and hit with more power once he ditched the big leg kick.

mathguy86 said:

---

TXAggie2011 said:

---

mathguy86 said:

---

Rafael Palmeiro is on line 2 for you. He would like to discuss his Congressional testimony and subsequent positive test for steroid use, all while in the twilight of his career.

---

Do you think Palmeiro stopped using steroids sometime before his Congressional testimony? If not, you're not addressing the question.

p.s. I'm still yet to say I think Frank Thomas used or did not use steroids. That's not the point. But drawing out this hoop jumping is kind of entertaining.

---

It is a fact the Rafael Palmeiro testified before Congress on March 15, 2005. It is a fact that he was suspended by MLB for testing positive for steroids. The suspension was dated Aug 1, 2005, 10 days after testing positive for Stanolozol.

I'm done.

---

I'm well aware of what happened with Palmeiro. You said you figure Thomas stopped. I'm asking you what dynamic changed to make him start up again before 2006, especially at a time with such high scrutiny of the kind you say made him stop using.

The money dynamics were there for years prior. That didn't change. His age? Maybe.

If you can't understand the difference than I'm glad you're done here.

Why are you so agitated that Thomas has glaring question marks about him?

We don't know if he did or didn't but his numbers do not look squeaky clean like he's acting. Sure they can be explained. So can a lot of users and non-users numbers.

aggie1906 said:

---

Why are you so agitated that Thomas has glaring question marks about him?

We don't know if he did or didn't but his numbers do not look squeaky clean like he's acting. Sure they can be explained. So can a lot of users and non-users numbers.

---

This has nothing to do with Frank Thomas, as I've said before.

TXAggie2011 said:

---

aggie1906 said:

---

Why are you so agitated that Thomas has glaring question marks about him?

We don't know if he did or didn't but his numbers do not look squeaky clean like he's acting. Sure they can be explained. So can a lot of users and non-users numbers.

---

This has nothing to do with Frank Thomas, as I've said before.

---

Then who are we talking about?

aggie1906 said:

---

TXAggie2011 said:

---

aggie1906 said:

---

Why are you so agitated that Thomas has glaring question marks about him?

We don't know if he did or didn't but his numbers do not look squeaky clean like he's acting. Sure they can be explained. So can a lot of users and non-users numbers.

---

This has nothing to do with Frank Thomas, as I've said before.

---

Then who are we talking about?

---

I'm talking about what I already said I'm talking about---crappy analytical methods.

steroids have been in baseball since the 1960s.

There is as much "evidence" that Thomas used as there is that Bagwell used. None for either.

Its all speculation and conjecture.


No one is above suspicion from the so called "steroid era" but using the metric of "he was good when he was old" is terrible.

Even the implication of Biggio and steroids is gonna get that one poster in here going ape**** ballistic. It was like telling him his mom didn't really love his dad and that his dad was also on steroids.