With Bud Selig being elected to the HOF last night, several of the BWAA voters are changing their stances on players with steroid speculation:

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To me Mussina is 1st team hall of very good.

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Agreed. "Oh no, we've got to face Mussina tonight," said no one, perhaps ever. I know, it's trite, but actually not a terrible indicator of worthiness.

19 Ballots Received
Pudge Rodriguez (16 - 84%)
Jeff Bagwell (16 - 84%)
Tim Raines (16 - 84%)
Barry Bonds (15 - 79%)
Roger Clemens (15 - 79%)
Trevor Hoffman (14 - 74%)
Vladimir Guerrero (13 - 68%)
Edgar Martinez (11 - 58%)
Lee Smith (10 - 53%)
Mike Mussina (10 - 53%)

Obviously, still extremely early in the voting, but with Selig's election, could this be the year that Bonds/Clemens make it?

I gotta admit, a Pudge/Bagwell/Bonds/Clemens/Raines class would be awesome! Would also love to see Vlad get in, but my gut tells me he'll be a year 2 election.

Will Pudge Rodriguez make Hall of Fame on first ballot? Voters speak out


Good article on Pudge and the HOF with comments from various voters around the country on his chances.

One comment that really stood out to me:

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Henry Schulman, San Francisco Chronicle: "Completely undecided. I'm not leaning one way or the other. I have no strong feelings that he should or shouldn't be in. At some point I'll sit down with all the stats and what not and go through it. I will say Pudge does not scream out "First ballot" when I hear his name. Doesn't mean I won't vote for him. And I doubt the PED issue will color my view.

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Since he follows that by saying the PED issue will not color his view, how on earth could he think Pudge doesn't "scream first ballot"? 13 Gold Gloves. 14-time All Star. 2844 career hits. Highest Total Zone Runs among catchers in baseball history. Led league 9 times in Caught Stealing %. Most games at C in history. Highest dWAR of catchers in history.

RetiredAg said:

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Will Pudge Rodriguez make Hall of Fame on first ballot? Voters speak out


Good article on Pudge and the HOF with comments from various voters around the country on his chances.

One comment that really stood out to me:

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Henry Schulman, San Francisco Chronicle: "Completely undecided. I'm not leaning one way or the other. I have no strong feelings that he should or shouldn't be in. At some point I'll sit down with all the stats and what not and go through it. I will say Pudge does not scream out "First ballot" when I hear his name. Doesn't mean I won't vote for him. And I doubt the PED issue will color my view.

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Since he follows that by saying the PED issue will not color his view, how on earth could he think Pudge doesn't "scream first ballot"? 13 Gold Gloves. 14-time All Star. 2844 career hits. Highest Total Zone Runs among catchers in baseball history. Led league 9 times in Caught Stealing %. Most games at C in history. Highest dWAR of catchers in history.

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Agreed.

Speaking of PEDs, it sounds like a lot of people are going to start voting for the users now the Bud is in. Seems like a silly excuse to me, but whatever.

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Agreed.

Speaking of PEDs, it sounds like a lot of people are going to start voting for the users now the Bud is in. Seems like a silly excuse to me, but whatever.

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I get it. If the enablers of the steroid era are going to start getting in, then it doesn't make sense to use steroids as reason to keep players out.

Good article on Schilling's candidacy:

http://www.si.com/mlb/2016/12/05/jaws-2017-hall-of-fame-ballot-curt-schilling

Pudge not first ballot? Just shows you how vindictive and cantankerous the writers can be. Eddie Mathews took a number of years. As I said a while back, it's Bench, Berra, and Pudge. The end.

Because he's a west coast writer and to many of them, baseball doesn't exist except for on the East and West coast.

Agreed. The same guy that says pudge doesn't scream first ballot will probably vote for Jorge Posada on his first ballot.

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As I said a while back, it's Bench, Berra, and Pudge.

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Yep. If there were a Mt Rushmore of catchers, these 3 are locks. The only debate is who is the 4th...Carter or Fisk. Maybe Cochrane, but it's so hard to rate those pre-WW2 catchers.

He's hands down the best hitting catcher ever.

I see this as a good thing. If you are willing to take the responsibility to be a voter then you should also be able to defend who you voted for. Want to see how many are using fact based decisions and who is just going with emotional ties.

aggie1906 said:

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He's hands down the best hitting catcher ever.

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No doubt, but his defensive abilities were lacking. But, I have no issue with him being in the debate between Fisk, Carter and others for that 4th spot.

Never mind, misread your post. Piazza is certainly one of the best hitting catchers ever.

Yeah, I would also agree with that. Best hitting catcher? Sure. But best overall catcher for either of those franchises? Nope.

I have a hard time leaving Piazza off the list of top 4 catchers ever when the 4 guys ahead of him don't compare all that well when looking at pure offensive #s. I'm saying this as not a fan of his. I don't even like Piazza.

aggie1906 said:

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I have a hard time leaving Piazza off the list of top 4 catchers ever when the 4 guys ahead of him don't compare all that well when looking at pure offensive #s. I'm saying this as not a fan of his. I don't even like Piazza.

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His defense was that bad though.

Pudge Rodgriguez
oWAR: 53.9
dWAR: 28.7
162-game HR: 20
162-game RBI: 85
AVG: .296
OPS: .798

Bench
oWAR: 65.2
dWAR: 19.3
162-game HR: 29
162-game RBI: 103
AVG: .267
OPS: .817

Berra
oWAR: 56.5
dWAR: 8.7
162-game HR: 27
162-game RBI: 109
AVG: .285
OPS: .830

Piazza
oWAR; 65.9
dWAR: 1.0
162-game HR: 36
162-game RBI: 113
AVG: .308
OPS: .922


I would say they are much closer to Piazza offensively than he is to them defensively. He obviously is the best hitter of the bunch, but he was a defensive liability, which cannot be overlooked for this position.

Now, the two I think he's most in competition with for that "top-4" grouping is Fisk and Carter.

Fisk
oWAR; 65.7
dWAR: 16.3
162-game HR: 24
162-game RBI: 86
AVG: .269
OPS: .797

Carter
oWAR; 55.69
dWAR: 25.5
162-game HR: 23
162-game RBI: 86
AVG: .262
OPS: .773

I could see including Piazza in the top 4, but I think the difference between the top 3 and everyone else is significant. I would personally go with Carter, but I'm perhaps biased towards the defensive side of this position.

aggie1906 said:

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He's hands down the best hitting catcher ever.

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And sliding in is one the best Aggie baseball players ever: Scott Livingstone!

Piazza
Career
OPS .922
wRC+ 140
WAR (per) 4.0

Prime (10 year window)
OPS .969
RPI 1066
RUN 846


Pudge
Career
OPS .798
wRC+ 104
WAR (per) 3.3

Prime (10 year window)
OPS .872
RPI 813
RUN 839

I would say Piazza is significantly ahead of Pudge for career & in their primes offensively. I'm not trying to make the argument Pudge doesn't deserve to be in the HOF or a top catcher of all time. I just think Mike is in easily with his offensive prowess.

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I'm perhaps biased towards the defensive side of this position.

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I think most are. As soon as you say "Best X position", one naturally thinks of the defensive side of it, as it's a location on the field. Likewise, if you said said "Best leadoff man", you'd be judging based on offensive measures.

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I would say Piazza is significantly ahead of Pudge for career & in their primes offensively. I'm not trying to make the argument Pudge doesn't deserve to be in the HOF or a top catcher of all time. I just think Mike is in easily with his offensive prowess.

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I don't think anyone has said any of the top 3 were superior, or even equal, to Piazza offensively. Catcher includes defense though, and that's where the rest of the top 3 easily distance themselves from Piazza. Like I said, the difference between the top 3 and Piazza offensively is closer than the difference between the top 3 and Piazza defensively.

No doubt Piazza is ahead of them offensively. Defensively, though, it's not even remotely close. Especially with Pudge and Bench compared to Piazza.

diehard03 said:

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I'm perhaps biased towards the defensive side of this position.

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I think most are. As soon as you say "Best X position", one naturally thinks of the defensive side of it, as it's a location on the field. Likewise, if you said said "Best leadoff man", you'd be judging based on offensive measures.

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Plus, catcher isn't like 1B. Defense is a huge priority for this position, and will factor in heavily when evaluating the best overall players at this position.

I'd say C is more like 3B, which is why the default "greatest 3B" (Robinson) isn't the best hitter at that position, but the best glove at that position.

I think many would argue against your "defult greatest third baseman." Nothing against Robinson, he was truly an exceptional fielder and a clutch hitter with some decent pop, but I believe both Schmidt and Brett were better overall players.

jkag89 said:

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I think many would argue against your "defult greatest third baseman." Nothing against Robinson, he was truly an exceptional fielder and a clutch hitter with some decent pop, but I believe both Schmidt and Brett were better overall players.

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Oh, I didn't mean that I believe Robinson is the best. It just seems like he's the default go-to when the subject comes up. I certainly think Schmidt, Brett, Robinson and even Adrian Beltre all belong in that conversation.

BTW, not saying Beltre is greatest 3B ever, but I think the argument can be made he's definitely a top-5 3B all-time.

Never thought I'd be saying this 4-5 years ago, but I think it's no longer much of a debate that Beltre is in fact a Top 5 3B all-time.

free_mhayden said:

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Never thought I'd be saying this 4-5 years ago, but I think it's no longer much of a debate that Beltre is in fact a Top 5 3B all-time.

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Absolutely! I thought it was a good signing when they brought him to Texas, but he's become a 1st ballot lock since then.

Barring major injury, he will end with (using 162 game averages) the following if he retires after 2 more seasons (all-time 3B rank in parenthesis):

3,292 hits (1st)
499 HR (3rd)
1,759 RBI (1st)
661 Doubles (2nd)
1598 runs (2nd)

And that's just on the offensive side of his resume. His defensive prowess already well known.

Up to 24 ballots. Raines & B**** both lead the way with 21/24 so far. Rudge & Hoffman at 20 & 19.

https://onedrive.live.com/view.aspx?resid=F2E5D8FC5199DFAF!7731&ithint=file,xlsx&app=Excel&authkey=!AE2Lu5P1f92OW8o

Good to see Bonds and Clemens at 18. They are both +1 with those that have voted compared to last year. Still gonna need a lot to flip though.

Interesting to see who has gained/lost most from returning voters compared to last year.

Gain
Edgar Martinez +4
Raines +3

Loss
Schilling -2 (likely result of going completely off the rails in personal life)

RetiredAg said:

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Interesting to see who has gained/lost most from returning voters compared to last year.

Gain
Edgar Martinez +4
Raines +3

Loss
Schilling -2 (likely result of going completely off the rails in personal life)

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To me this is BS

Unless he's doing something truly despicable then personal life shouldn't effect votes. The only reason for names to drop is if there are new people to the ballot that are more deserving so the max of 10 makes some drop off.

aggie1906 said:

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Loss
Schilling -2 (likely result of going completely off the rails in personal life)

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To me this is BS

Unless he's doing something truly despicable then personal life shouldn't effect votes. The only reason for names to drop is if there are new people to the ballot that are more deserving so the max of 10 makes some drop off.

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From what I've read, voters are using the character clause to drop him. The biggest reason is the t-shirt he wore stating "Rope. Tree. Journalist....Some Assembly Required". While I'm sure he'll say it was in jest, any time you start talking about lynching people, especially the people who vote in this, then it's going to be held against you. It's one thing to constantly violate your employer's policies and get fired. It's one thing to share offensive memes on social media. But, publicly implying that anyone should be lynched is a whole different ballgame.