**Official San Antonio Spurs 2016-2017 Race For Seis**Staff Warning on OP

311,224 Views | 3630 Replies | Last: 7 yr ago by GatorAg03
DTP02
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
GatorAg03 said:

It's just one game, but interestingly Murray had the highest plus minus with a +11 and Mills had the worst at -7. Of course Mills played twice as many minutes and crunch time. I do think adding Murray's size can help a little on defense in spurts, if he can work on his turnovers.

I also thought the Green, Leonard, Simmons lineup was interesting and likely one we will see a bit more of.
Plus-minus produces some misleading results at times, especially with a small sample size, and this is one of those times. Murray was better defensively than he was offensively, but he was so bad offensively that it doesn't matter. He darn near turned the ball over every time he touched it. Luckily the Rockets weren't able to capitalize. I didn't think Murray would be ready for this type of game, and he absolutely proved that he wasn't. Hopefully at least some of that was nerves and he can play a little better next time.
West Texan
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
210Aggie14 said:

I'm laughing so hard at the rockets thread


They're a bunch of sensitive Sally's that can't handle any negativity. That's why their thread is the only one with a staff warning on the op and they're all pumped about a couple of guys getting 30 day bans for some trash talking. Petty victories.
Good Poster
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
It is so funny to read
aggie_fan13
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
210Aggie14 said:

It is so funny to read
lol boy you gonna get a ban
GarryowenAg
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
West Texan said:

210Aggie14 said:

I'm laughing so hard at the rockets thread


They're a bunch of sensitive Sally's that can't handle any negativity. That's why their thread is the only one with a staff warning on the op and they're all pumped about a couple of guys getting 30 day bans for some trash talking. Petty victories.


I remember my first 30 day ban...
Guitarsoup
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
Aggie_3 said:

Murray is getting the start tonight!


Who called it?
Guitarsoup
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
Confirmed that Harden shouldn't have gotten a foul called.

Nunn was head of refs for five years and a ref for decades.

Guitarsoup
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
Guitarsoup
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
Shaq's favorite player? Kawhi Leonard.

Guitarsoup
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
GatorAg03
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
I'm certainly not saying Murray was an all-star tonight, but he competed on the road vs Beverly who is probably one of the most annoying players out there to play against. He was definitely loose with the ball at times, but the rockets also overplayed him a bit to force the issue and gave up some cheap baskets because of it. His length also slowed Houston's offense a bit(or they at least they missed shots). He only had two TOs I think, despite it looking more precarious. I think he at least showed he deserves another look, where hopefully his nerves won't be as bad. I would start him again, and think he can go 20 minutes per game or so once his nerves calm.
Ulrich
How long do you want to ignore this user?
He's going to get another chance because there is no one else, but iirc he had the ball knocked away 5 times in 4 consecutive possessions and got benched for almost the entire rest of the game. The Spurs were fortunate that most of those proto-steals went out of bounds and Beverley committed an offensive foul on the run-out.

He does play better defense in the scheme the spurs played yesterday, mostly because it doesn't ask players to get through screens. More on that in my next post.
jteagle
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
GatorAg03 said:

I'm certainly not saying Murray was an all-star tonight, but he competed on the road vs Beverly who is probably one of the most annoying players out there to play against. He was definitely loose with the ball at times, but the rockets also overplayed him a bit to force the issue and gave up some cheap baskets because of it. His length also slowed Houston's offense a bit(or they at least they missed shots). He only had two TOs I think, despite it looking more precarious. I think he at least showed he deserves another look, where hopefully his nerves won't be as bad. I would start him again, and think he can go 20 minutes per game or so once his nerves calm.
Beverly is an elite defender against the best pt guards in the league. With Murray he smells blood in the water and attacks. I think Murray will be good in this league but he just doesn't have the experience and the physicality to play with Beverly. Plus I think it was pretty obvious that he had nerves st the beginning. I'm glad he is getting the experience and would like to see him improve as the series goes forward. Could be a good springboard for next year.
claym711
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
Murray was really bad. He is only topped by Ginobili as a liability with the ball in hand.
Ulrich
How long do you want to ignore this user?
I'm saying this here because I'm not trying to set off Rockets fans, but while the Spurs defensive scheme was brilliant and effective last night, it was also the next step in the perversion of basketball.

From around 2000 to 2002, the league changed the rules to eliminate handchecking, make it harder for centers to clog the paint, and reduce legal contact to impede a screener. The Spurs were one of the first teams (with Detroit) to figure out how to defend and also one of the first (with the D'Antoni Suns) to exploit it offensively with pick-and-roll offenses led by light, quick guards. Along with the rail-thin Ginobili's innovations in footwork, Parker was in the first wave of guards that were physically weak but used screens and speed to score at will in the paint. By the late 2000s, the Suns and Spurs were battling it out with pick and roll offenses.

The next wave was to go from simply playing within the new rules to exploiting the rules. Ginobili was in the first wave of players to exploit the rules to draw fouls. Other, more egregious offenders were: Paul Pierce, Dwayne Wade, and Chris Paul with the "pump fake and jump into the defender" (Aldridge was a fast follower). Dwayne Wade and Chris Paul brought the "crash into a post defender and throw the ball up while flailing arms wildly" to an art form. Certain players brought back the Reggie Miller leg extension to draw contact.

The Chris Paul Clippers were the first team to build their offense around drawing fouls (and trusting that officials would not call moving screens). The Scott Brooks Thunder were close behind, and the eventual arrival of D'Antoni in Houston changed things there from one horrible flopper doing his thing to designing the offense around gaming the officials.

With the advent of using screens to draw fouls (by using the cover to grab a defenders arm; the screener pushing the defender into the ball handler; curling hard off the screen to create contact with the lead arm; or pulling up to shoot before clearing the screen to force a collision), the problem had been set.

Exploiting the rules is worth 50% more when the foul is on a three point shot. Analytics (a toolset pioneered by San Antonio and eventually picked up by the Battier/Morey Rockets), helped identify that drawing a foul is a lot better than taking a good shot. An 80% free throw shooter taking two is worth 1.6 points per possession, well above the league average of 1.05. Make it three and it's worth 2.4 ppp, which means that as long as you draw a foul every other time you try you're coming out ahead. Any made shots are gravy. The worse the shot, the more likely you are to get a foul call, which means that the Rockets now intentionally take bad shots.

The Spurs adjusted brilliantly. They stopped fighting through picks, opting instead to follow the ball handler and challenge shots from the side where they could prevent contact from the screener and see the ball handler to avoid contact on the stop-and-launch. They gave up straight line drives to the basket betting that the Rockets would go straight to the nearest big man trying to draw contact, which the Rockets obligingly did. And they told the big men to stay down and stay vertical, which allowed them to block shots without fouling as long as drivers went straight to them. It's the Tim Duncan, and I suspect he had a hand in the game plan.

But it's all so stylized. The Rockets aren't trying to take good shots and the Spurs are trying to prevent bad shots. We've gone in circles and the game is hardly recognizable. I'm happy we won but sad that this may be the future of basketball.
Ulrich
How long do you want to ignore this user?
It's so strange to watch elite athletes intentionally flop and flail with clear space between them and the nearest defender. The bad shots are just bad shots without much chance to draw a foul, but the Rockets keep taking them.
Guitarsoup
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG


He may want my vote after all
DTP02
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
I've rarely seen a player, let alone a Spurs player, look as overmatched as Murray looked in the opening minutes of the game. He didn't look like he belonged with the other 9 guys on the court.

Beverly is a tough matchup, and we certainly hope a lot of that was nerves, but the longshot hope of Murray being a significant part of the answer to the absence of Parker in these playoffs looks like a much longer shot after that performance.

Don't get me wrong, I'm very happy with the win in a classic gutsy Spurs performance, but Murray had nothing to do with that outside of buying a few minutes of legs for the other ballhandlers, during which the Rockets thankfully couldn't take advantage of Murray's miscues.
Ulrich
How long do you want to ignore this user?
I think Simmons made a strong case for taking a lot of the guard minutes. His defense is very good 1-3, he's so strong and explosive that if you gamble and lose he's going to get into the lane and likely throw it down, he rebounds, and he plays calm. It helps if Aldridge can keep playing to his talent because the Spurs can play through the post more which saves Leonard and Mills to handle point duties.

The key offensively is Aldridge though. Without him scoring, we don't have the horses to keep up. Kawhi will get his, Mills and Gasol will score some, but there's only one real second scorer on the team now.

Game 4 would be a really great time for a throwback game from Manu though. Matching up with Harden, an extra day of rest, and the team needs him....
GatorAg03
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
Again, Murray did no harm and competed. He was a net neutral for his limited time on the court. I honestly didn't expect much more after getting thrown to the wolves in that environment. I think it bodes well for getting about 20 minutes per game going forward. Which the Spurs desperately will need.

I'm not claiming he was a world beater but I disagree that he is unplayable and his +/- indicates the same. I think he starts again tomorrow.
Adam87inSA
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
Ulrich said:

I think Simmons made a strong case for taking a lot of the guard minutes. His defense is very good 1-3, he's so strong and explosive that if you gamble and lose he's going to get into the lane and likely throw it down, he rebounds, and he plays calm. It helps if Aldridge can keep playing to his talent because the Spurs can play through the post more which saves Leonard and Mills to handle point duties.

The key offensively is Aldridge though. Without him scoring, we don't have the horses to keep up. Kawhi will get his, Mills and Gasol will score some, but there's only one real second scorer on the team now.

Game 4 would be a really great time for a throwback game from Manu though. Matching up with Harden, an extra day of rest, and the team needs him....
Agree x3
Adam87inSA
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
claym711 said:

Murray was really bad. He is only topped by Ginobili as a liability with the ball in hand.
+\- from last night's box score:
Murray +11 (lead the team)
Mills -7 (only player on team below 0)

I'm gonna go out on a limb and disagree with you. Murray was not awful.
jteagle
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
Didn't realize Ariza played 46 minutes last night and most of that was guarding Kawhi.
Ulrich
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Player +/- is a bad stat in general even over the course of a season and it's meaningless for 14 minutes of gameplay. Murray went 1 of 5 from the floor and lost control of the ball 5 times in 4 possessions after Beverley and company realized how loose his dribble is and how much slower his brain is working compared to everyone else. And he's not a good defender. He was atrocious.

The kid has tons of tools and I think he'll be good eventually, but that was a conspicuously bad performance. He's not ready. I'm hoping he'll contribute a few minutes, but only if he learned that he doesn't scare people enough yet to get away with all the flashy tricks he learned from Jamal Crawford.
Guitarsoup
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
Btron
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
Ulrich said:

I think Simmons made a strong case for taking a lot of the guard minutes. His defense is very good 1-3, he's so strong and explosive that if you gamble and lose he's going to get into the lane and likely throw it down, he rebounds, and he plays calm. It helps if Aldridge can keep playing to his talent because the Spurs can play through the post more which saves Leonard and Mills to handle point duties.

The key offensively is Aldridge though. Without him scoring, we don't have the horses to keep up. Kawhi will get his, Mills and Gasol will score some, but there's only one real second scorer on the team now.

Game 4 would be a really great time for a throwback game from Manu though. Matching up with Harden, an extra day of rest, and the team needs him....

Don't forget Danny green. He did have a nice dunk early on. He has the ability, very little , to get to the basket. He also tried to get fouls and most of the time doesn't and turns the ball over.
DTP02
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
Adam87inSA said:

claym711 said:

Murray was really bad. He is only topped by Ginobili as a liability with the ball in hand.
+\- from last night's box score:
Murray +11 (lead the team)
Mills -7 (only player on team below 0)

I'm gonna go out on a limb and disagree with you. Murray was not awful.
Gator, and now you, keep referring to plus minus. Did you actually watch the game? Murray was horrible offensively. He literally turned it over or almost turned it over every time he touched it in the first 5 minutes. I don't know how anyone could have watched that game and come away thinking that the worst you could say about his performance was that he "wasn't an All-star" or was "net neutral." He was the worst player on the court by a huge margin.
GatorAg03
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
Because he is a rookie who played hard and the Spurs added to their lead while he was on the floor. He provided 14 important minutes to allow Mills to rest and his defense was solid. I also think that he will probably play better next time when he isn't as nervous. I was expecting much worse given the situation and expect him to start again tomorrow.

Do you not think he will start or that he is unplayable? I don't understand why it's so hard to understand that he wasn't good, but didn't kill the Spurs either.
UnderoosAg
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
Guitarsoup said:




When did Dedmon win a title?
Josepi
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
The majority of his minutes were at the beginning of the game before Mills even played. How is that giving Mills a rest?
Guitarsoup
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
If Murray can eat up enough minutes to not cause the apes to go into a deficit and allow Patty to rest and be at 100% for the 20-25 minutes he can and Manu to play 10-12 solid minutes, I'd call that a win for us.
DTP02
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
If Murray plays like he did during his first shift, he's unplayable. He turned it over twice and it should have been 4, with one of those being a possession where he almost turned it over twice in one trip. I don't know if you were expecting him to actually die on the court or what, but his first shift really couldn't have gone much worse.

If he plays like he did after his first shift, he's probably playable enough to buy a little rest for the other ballhandlers, but he also wasn't playing as much as the primary ballhandler after his first PT, so he's not actually providing as much rest as a decoy PG. I can't imagine us being able to play him 20 minutes and still winning the game if he plays anywhere close to the level he did last night. We were very fortunate he didn't cost us more points in the early going, but I think if the Rockets had capitalized on those miscues Pop would have pulled him much sooner.
Guitarsoup
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
Josepi said:

The majority of his minutes were at the beginning of the game before Mills even played. How is that giving Mills a rest?


Mills is not that effective if he plays too many minutes and he is most effective off the bench rather than starting.
GatorAg03
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
Because it keeps Mills in his normal rotation and keeps those minutes off Mills. All Murray needs to be is a net neutral.
Ulrich
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Green already gets a lot of minutes, he's been a starter for years. He can't really take more. If you mean he could handle the ball more, I think he's kind of in his sweet spot already. His capabilities are pretty limited.

Sweet dunk last night though.
First Page Last Page
Page 68 of 104
 
×
subscribe Verify your student status
See Subscription Benefits
Trial only available to users who have never subscribed or participated in a previous trial.