What are y'alls thoughts on expansion of MLS teams? 2 teams were added in 2015. 2 teams in 2017. MLS already has plans to add Los Angeles and Miami next. With the likes of Charlotte, Cincinnati, Detroit, and many others preparing to put in an MLS Expansion bid.

Yeah, and if the UTSA market and the A&M market were the same size that would be a fine trade. They aren't. That is the point.

I think USSF and MLS need to focus on what they need to do to develop extensive farm systems like baseball rather than try and go relegation. Maybe pro/rel is a possibility in the distant future, but the farm system network of clubs has to come first. In baseball today, where there are extensive numbers (maybe a hundred) of viable clubs in decent sized cities at the AA-AAA-Independent levels and a couple hundred more lower level development clubs in an already established pyramid, you could probably implement promotion and relegation right now if there was the will and the means to do so. Soccer as it exists right now? Impossible.

moneyag7 said:

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What are y'alls thoughts on expansion of MLS teams? 2 teams were added in 2015. 2 teams in 2017. MLS already has plans to add Los Angeles and Miami next. With the likes of Charlotte, Cincinnati, Detroit, and many others preparing to put in an MLS Expansion bid.

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I like the way they've expanded so far, and the restrictions they put on new teams (location, stadium, etc).

JJxvi said:

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I think USSF and MLS need to focus on what they need to do to develop extensive farm systems like baseball rather than try and go relegation. Maybe pro/rel is a possibility in the distant future, but the farm system network of clubs has to come first. In baseball today, where there are extensive numbers (maybe a hundred) of viable clubs in decent sized cities at the AA-AAA-Independent levels and a couple hundred more lower level development clubs in an already established pyramid, you could probably implement promotion and relegation right now if there was the will and the means to do so. Soccer as it exists right now? Impossible.

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True, and MLB basically has relegation, but on an individual level...as players not playing good enough get sent down.

Outside idea. Stop trying to copy the NFL or NBA. Try multiple leagues (like college conferences). Europe has 700+ million people. This feeds all the main euro leagues and ultimately the champions league. Teams are very local. Large population centers can have multiple teams. Us has 350 million, North America has 650 Million.

What if there was a west coast, east coast, midwest, and southern leagues. Dallas and Houston could have multiple teams. Austin, SA, El Paso, etc could have teams. These midsize cities that don't have major pro sports would provide a a good base of support. This would make relegation much more palatable. Allowing the big teams in the big cities to pay their way to the top if desired. Player transfer system now becomes possible, with real $$ incentive to develop players.

Then a champions league like event every year. Could eventually include leagues in Mexico, Canada, etc.

I know. Will never happen.

JW said:

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Outside idea. Stop trying to copy the NFL or NBA. Try multiple leagues (like college conferences). Europe has 700+ million people. This feeds all the main euro leagues and ultimately the champions league. Teams are very local. Large population centers can have multiple teams. Us has 350 million, North America has 650 Million.

What if there was a west coast, east coast, midwest, and southern leagues. Dallas and Houston could have multiple teams. Austin, SA, El Paso, etc could have teams. These midsize cities that don't have major pro sports would provide a a good base of support. This would make relegation much more palatable. Allowing the big teams in the big cities to pay their way to the top if desired. Player transfer system now becomes possible, with real $$ incentive to develop players.

Then a champions league like event every year. Could eventually include leagues in Mexico, Canada, etc.

I know. Will never happen.

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Houston just played a massively important game with major playoff implications. Yes I understand it is a Wednesday night and what not, but this was their crowd

Having multiple pro teams in one city would take away attendance numbers. Multiple leagues is a very good way of not growing MLS. We are not Europe. We don't need multiple leagues.

As others have mentioned I think a minor league system is a better fit for American sports culture. Franchise fees and such mean relegation will never happen here but we do need a more extensive network of development leagues. Every MLS team should be required to have multiple USL and other lower level teams to bridge the gap between academies and the first team. Last year Dallas signed Paxton, Cannon, Ferreira, and Reynolds from youth team and none are really playing at all this year because they aren't better than the 27 year olds in front of them. They're training and making occasional starts in the US open but nothing consistently enough to develop. And realistically they need to be playing meaningful games against other pros not going back to play with the academy teams for big tournaments. This is the big gap remaining in us soccer. We need bridges for college age to the pros and we need a whole lot more teams at that minor league level than just 24 odd MLS affiliates. Whether that's multiple levels or including independent teams the more teams we can get playing competitive the more chances for players to grow.

On salary cap the MLS union really screwed themselves last round by focusing on free agency. They cap stayed low and so we perennially lose the middle tier of MLS players to middling leagues that pay more. Having a middle class of player raises league quality and helps younger players develop from their example or need to rise to a higher standard.

Argument in favor of relegation:

Don't call it "allowing relegation", call it "allowing promotion".

There are 307 cities in the USA with a population > 100,000. By limiting the MLS to 30 cities, it ensures the other 277 cities can't have a top-flight team. This has various effects:

1) Fan enthusiasm: Fans are less likely to root for one of these guaranteed-to-not-be-top-flight teams, just like no one cares at all about minor league baseball teams. This puts a damper on fan enthusiasm for their local team. England is a good example of where fans can really get behind their local team even in the lower leagues, because there is always the chance they'll make it "up", maybe even to the top. It improves the soccer culture in all those other areas "nationwide".

2) Owner investment: A promotion to a higher league is a return on soccer investment. By ensuring no return on soccer investment, it ensures no one will make the investment in the first place! If the USL and NASL teams were allowed promotion, it would encourage those owners to buy better players and make a push for promotion. It also encourages teams that are in lower leagues like NPSL to make pushes into the USL and NASL leagues etc. By allowing the possibility of promotion (return on soccer investment), it strengthens every lower league!

The current non-relegation system is more like a "command economy". By allowing promotion and relegation, the soccer market becomes more of a free market economy.

MLS already has promotion. In my mind they dont need add in "relegation" at all until you get to 40 teams which honestly is the maximum point where youve covered ever major market thats needed. In my mind the distant future Id like to see is a 20 team MLS West and a 20 team MLS East divided at the Mississippi with 5 domestic competitions.

1/2)East/West league titles
3) MLS Cup playoffs
4) US Open Cup
5) MLS Challenge Cup (single knockout competition among MLS teams only (and i would structure the draw until the final to match an east team with a west team as much as possible)

JJxvi said:

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MLS already has promotion. In my mind they dont need add in "relegation" at all until you get to 40 teams which honestly is the maximum point where youve covered ever major market thats needed. In my mind the distant future Id like to see is a 20 team MLS West and a 20 team MLS East divided at the Mississippi with 5 domestic competitions.

1/2)East/West league titles
3) MLS Cup playoffs
4) US Open Cup
5) MLS Challenge Cup (single knockout competition among MLS teams only (and i would structure the draw until the final to match an east team with a west team as much as possible)

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Honestly I do not see why people are opposed to relegation. Relegation means there is a consequence for being last. That forces teams to be better.

I would look at how England has arranged their leagues and see if there are aspects that could be replicated. I absolutely agree that relegation/promotion would make domestic soccer WAY more interesting. There are already 3 well-established leagues that could serve TODAY as the first three divisions in a new US version of the FA. I think it would take a body like an American version of the FA to make a one-time "purchase" or buy-out or whatever you want to call it to remove the franchise aspect from all of the current MLS teams. Those owners aren't going to want to take a beating with MLS changing so radically so they would have to have some sort of financial pay-off up front to justify the move. MLS could continue as the top flight, USL as the second flight and NASL as the third (or reslot USL/NASL based on attendance or competitiveness or some ****). Domestic soccer just isn't competitive enough and will never become so as long as the current franchise system continues to serve as a disincentive to clubs' reinvesting in their product.

The regional idea makes more sense for the lower division leagues. People always seem to forget the travel time gap between her and any country in europe. It would not be fiscally feasible for these lower tier leagues to be doing the same travel as the MLS.

Yep. That's why relegation only works with regional leagues. Can't work on a national level.

Alternative idea ( no clue if possible): start an English premier team league in New York.

PatAg said:

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The regional idea makes more sense for the lower division leagues. People always seem to forget the travel time gap between her and any country in europe. It would not be fiscally feasible for these lower tier leagues to be doing the same travel as the MLS.

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USL already has the regional setup

And honestly they could split it even further instead of in half like current.

Lets be real nothing is going to happen too much money involved.

Russia's Division 3 teams promote from regions into their Division 2 but their Division 2 is national and promotes into their Premier League. If Russia can manage that, I'm sure the US could as well.

Other than that, it seems the argument against pro/rel is "the sport isn't popular enough". I get that argument but maybe pro/rel makes the sport more popular (by raising the standard of the top league).

Matilda said:

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Alternative idea ( no clue if possible): start an English premier team league in New York.

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LOL.

No.

If I were king, I'd kill the single-entity ownership model completely. It was absolutely necessary early on, but it needs to die now.

Anybody see this from Jermaine Jones?

https://sports.yahoo.com/jermaine-jones-takes-instagram-live-criticizes-american-players-content-mls-035839179.html

If true, this is just sad.

Quote:

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The one specific story Jones tells is the best part. He says Klinsmann asked him to call Jordan Morris, who was deciding between going to Germany to play with Werder Bremen and staying at home with the Seattle Sounders. Jones says he called Morris and encouraged him to go to the Bundesliga. But he says that Morris told him, "I want to go home, my dad is a doctor in Seattle, and my mom, they bought me and my girlfriend a dog." Jones looks into the camera dumbfounded at this point. "Really? Why you go the easy way when you have the chance?"

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TheMasterplan said:

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Anybody see this from Jermaine Jones?

https://sports.yahoo.com/jermaine-jones-takes-instagram-live-criticizes-american-players-content-mls-035839179.html

If true, this is just sad.

Quote:

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The one specific story Jones tells is the best part. He says Klinsmann asked him to call Jordan Morris, who was deciding between going to Germany to play with Werder Bremen and staying at home with the Seattle Sounders. Jones says he called Morris and encouraged him to go to the Bundesliga. But he says that Morris told him, "I want to go home, my dad is a doctor in Seattle, and my mom, they bought me and my girlfriend a dog." Jones looks into the camera dumbfounded at this point. "Really? Why you go the easy way when you have the chance?"

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It's not sad. There's nothing wrong with wanting to be near family.

I would suggest that a player that makes a decision like that better back it up with personal skill/development or they shouldnt be involved in meaningful games for the national team though.

Kind of hard to take JJ's criticism super-seriously since he bailed to the MLS as soon as he was given the opportunity. (He's not wrong, but still)

How has Morris progressed since his move to MLS?

I can't imagine a player who has aspirations of being the best at his craft NOT moving to Europe to continue his development. It will be interesting to track Morris' progress over the next 4-5 years.

Other than being "in Europe" is there anything else that indicates signing with Werder Bremen is really any kind of significantly amazing career move?

Other than an opportunity to play and train in the Bundesliga?

Lots of people choose family over career. It's a fair decision. He will get passed by in the national team however.

This is probably a gross over-simplification, but here's my take

Non-Mexico CONCACAF teams caught up to us by developing through the MLS
Mexico has (mostly) managed to stay ahead of us through a domestic league that is better than the MLS
The teams one tier higher than Mexico don't touch the MLS (or Liga MX) with a ten foot pole

Whatever our development answer is, it sure as **** isn't the MLS

JW said:

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Lots of people choose family over career. It's a fair decision. He will get passed by in the national team however.

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Which is pretty much the danger you risk when you make that decision no matter what career field you're in.

MLS will continue to get better as the $$$ improves, but that shouldn't really concern USSF.

You could ask the same about yedlin and playing in the championship. He is such a better player now and I'm not sure he would have improved so quickly at Seattle

He came as a 33 year old though. He didn't come as a 27 year old (Bradley) or as a 26 year old (Altidore) and he didn't choose to stay here as a youngster (though admittedly that was never on the cards for him).

I also remember him saying for quite some time at Schalke that he was interested in MLS but it wasn't the right time. I'm not sure it's accurate to say that he didn't have an opportunity before he turned 33. He was getting regular time at Schalke during his late 20s and early 30s and seemed to suggest that he wasn't ready move to MLS at that point in his career.

That said, I'm curious what he thinks about Bradley and Altidore if that's how he feels about Jordan Morris.

I'm not going to pretend to understand the inner workings of Werder Bremen's youth training and development structure but at a very high level, it's pretty clear that European clubs are more successful than developing young talent that American clubs, right? Not all of them and even the ones who are considered good at it still fail with some but odds are a European club will be better at it than an American club.

Morris would have flamed out worse than Donovan in Germany. Difference being Landon was exponentially more talented than Morris

Stop making valid points.