check your inbox.

[This message has been edited by Madman (edited 5/19/2006 2:50p).]

You and OPAG both have premium stars... please take your titty baby fights to the premium forums.

Thanks.

Thingy

Speaking of, when are you going to pony up the 3.42 so you can come over to AO?

You would be a good addition.

Well Look I have have been some great teams, coache some great teams. I have been on some not great teams and coached some not great teams.

I live in reality. I know that when I play a team that has more talent, more speed, more experience in just about every area I do not call it bashing to say."They are a more talented team than us!" Why is that bashing, that's true, if that's bashing every realisitc coach in the nation has bashed his team at one point or another. Now having said that doesn't mean that I don't think we can win against a superior opponent. I do think we can win. But I know to win against a superior opponent some things have to happen. We have to play our A+ game. Can we do it. Yea, but there is no guarantee. I also can pretty much be sure that a seasoned, talented teams Jrs and Seniors are going to beat my fish and Sophmores most the times. NOT ALL BUT MOST. I also can expect the same when the roles are reveresed.

Fran has never been in the reversed role yet. I know, that is not bashing, that's facts. Come on Madman, really!

I also know that ISU's, Baylor's, and any other Big 12 schools 5th year seniors are going to be a challenge for my fish, RS fish and Sophmores to beat. This also is fact and can be varfied. I know that by in large in takes three years to develop OLmen. There are exceptions but you won't see many top teir teams that don't have their OL and DL stocked with mostly upperclassmen. There are reaons for this, both physically, mentally and emotionally as well as experientially.

I am not bashing players when I say that Kirk Elder as a RS Fish is going to have his hands full blocking a Tommy Harris!

YOU have a funny definition of bashing!

Sometimes teams are just better than you. Sometimes you under perform. Sometimes these two feed each other and you really get smoked.

But we have yet to play a tu or ou team that was not deeper and overall more talented than us. That is about to change. The tables are much more even than they were in 03 that is for doggone sure. Sorry no bashing just fact.

"only one thing is important!"

Man... I'll level with you, before the end of school for the summer, I was in the SCC and I got onto Texags, and someone left there username logged on to Texags...

It happens often, but this poster just happened to be a premium member.
I'll admit, the honest thing would have been to just log out, but the curious ******* in me really wanted to see what goes on there so I lurked for a bit.

Billy Liucci's board blew me away. His information is awesome, he seems to interact regularly with his posters, they signify on the threads that he posts on with "L" symbols, and they seemed to archive all the BeLiucci Hour radio shows which I love.

When I join it will be for that reason for sure.

Aggies Only, on the other hand, is just bunch of whiney Ags who pay to ***** at each other. I knew the Regular football forum is bad, but we have sips and bored people among us who like to stir things up... these are all verified Aggies.

There is one female poster there who I won't call out by username, but DAMN menopause must be kicking her ass. I've never seen anyone so overtly negative and hateful.

Aggies Only is just a bunch of grown people acting like fools, with less useless "spam" posts. Although I am sure there are some quality posts, from what I saw they were few and far between.

Yes, sometimes I wish I did not have access to the AO board.

When I can't fight the urge and go read some threads, I bang my head on my desk in agony.

OPAG,

You are having a problem being a straight shooter on this one, not me.

The man used a time frame and stated the players were not good enough to beat those 3 teams. In that time frame they finished with a winning record against 2 of 3 of those teams and had a victory over the 3rd. What he posted was not true and was degrading to the players. They won the games, and he bashed them anyway. All the reasons you posted about why our team has struggled apply to other teams as well. Our average recruiting ranking even in the down times has still been above thiers and it has not always been the case that our team was younger than those three teams for the 99-03 span. Your argument just doesn't fly.

Is it considered 'bashing' to say we've been outcoached? To some on here, I think it would be.

quote:

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But we have yet to play a tu or ou team that was not deeper and overall more talented than us. That is about to change. The tables are much more even than they were in 03 that is for doggone sure. Sorry no bashing just fact.

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Never did the original post or myself bring OU or t.u. into this arguement. The quote said baylor, iowa state, and ttu have all had more talent thn us and we could not beat them even though we did.

Agree with Watchole on AO. These last few years has put alot of strain on this forum as well as AO. I gave up on civility here on the Football forum, but AO still retains some vestige of Aggies conversing with Aggies.

Thingy, it only costs 3.42 and you can cancel anytime. That is a pretty low entry point. I have always appreciated your posts and you would be a great addition to AO.

No it's not bashing to say we got out coached, in my book. But that's kind of ambiguos some times. Some of the greatest coaching jobs I felt I ever did resulted in a loss.

It's just so hard to qualify and state dogmaticly that so and so outcoached so and so. Because so much of successfull coaching has to do with execution and great players making great plays that coaching has nothing to do with. Any coach knows this. Great players can make great coaches. Great coaches with marginal and young players cannot beat teams with great players or equal but more experienced players and good coaches very often. This is a fact and it is universally accepted across the board by ALL knowledgable and experienced football people. That's why they call it upsets when it happens. It would of been an upset to beat any team we lost to 03. That's not bashing it's the truth.

I personally believe that Fran seriously outcoached Mack last year in T+1. We didn't win though. I believe Fran seriously outcoached Stoops in '04 another loss.

I believe Fran was outcoached by McCarney and Morris last year. One was a loss the other a win.

I think we need to develop a little definition for bashing and personal bashing. I think generally stating that one team is more talented than another is not bashing. I can argue all day long that all the teams that beat us in 03 were better talent wise overall, especially on the OL and DL where we had to play a RS fish Kotzur at LT for our one true blue upperclass OL Hightower.

I don't taking it as bashing when guys tell me that Gerald Carter was a better Z than I was. HE WAS. Gerald Carter went on to have pretty successful career with the Tampa Bay Bucs. I never would of made the NFL. So if Miller would of said that I wasn't NFL or upper echelon SWC talent in my day I really wouldn't have considered my self bashed (at least now I wouldn't I was young confident then) it would of been the simple truth.

I don't consider it bashing when guys use the Tom Wilson era as an example of mediocrity. We were! And though I am not a fan of TW I know that it wasn't all his fault. Players make choices. However, unlike Fran we had some of the greatest players to ever play their position at A&M off that team and surely some of the greatest athletes ever. Jacob Green, Curtis Dickey, Mike Mosely, Gerald Carter, Cody Risen, Mike Whitwell all played in the NFL with Dickey and Green argurably being the best to suit up at their perpsective spots and ended as Number 1 picks. All of these guys started at some time in their NFL careers. Zach Guthrie and James Zachary where legitimate upper echelon players and WERE UPPERCLASSMEN>

When comparing them to our 2003 team it is laughable. We were much more talented and experienced as well.

Now add the facet that the 03 team competed in the Big XII with OOC scheduled that contained 3 top 20 teams in Utah, VT and Pitt (remember Larry Fitzgerald)with a obviously less talented team and this is not bashing.

Here is something fun. Go back to 03 and look at the teams we played and look for a couple of things.

1. How many all conference honors did we get in comparrison to everyone else. How many players got drafted in the NFL compared to everyone else? I bet that tale would be telling. We had NO all conference selections, I think Lewis was fish of the year and third team all Big 12. I can't remember anyone else.

2. how many players did we have drafted vs our opponents! I do know that I can think of only Taylor sticking from that class and he was a 6th rounder (a steal IMHO)

Bottom line it is very easy to defend the idea that we were not as talented as any of the teams we lost to in 03. Very easy. I don't call that bashing.

IN 04 we lost one game we shouldn't have lost Baylor. We also argurably won two games we maybe shouldn't of OSU and Colorado. We beat them by getting our one super blue, Reg going early. We still were very young on the OL and DL.

Last year was a bad year and the one real disappointing year where we truly underperformed. It was definitley a bad year for Fran. However to say that it is all his fault or that the man has some how become incompetent is truly unfair and I think it is bashing a guy personally when you subjectively and unilaterally declare that Fran is a bad coach, or incompetent or yada yada. It's definitley bashing when you say it is impossible to win with him and just discount and throw away every every factor that goes into creating a sucessful or unsuccessful year. Even it is not bashing IT SURELY IS NOT FRUITFUL!

It's myopic when one says we haven't improved at all. I categorically disagree. It is very easy to see that our 2006 team is much more talented than our 2003 team was, just because of the OL and DL upgrades.

Let's look at this. In 2003 is there one player that could of possibly started for either OU or tu that year? I can't think of one. They had more depth across the board. Now let's look. I can pretty much assure you that we had few players that would of started for a lot teams we played that year. We did crush Baylor but I remember that game. They made some big mistakes and things snowballed. Kind like us at OU.

Going into 06? We are definitley better than tu at QB, MLB, TE for sure. At least equal (depending on how the sip replacements fill in) at OL, DT. I personally like our RB situation much more than theirs, (especially with Taylor gone)

The point is in 03 we had little real chance of beating OU or tu, in 06 that possibility is a lot more than a hope. I know our Offense (barring massive injuries) is going to be dominant. I don't predict that, I know that. It's all going to come down to how the defense jells. And OH Fran, does not run the D. though as HC he is responsible. The truth is any HC is really dependent on his Assts and his players executing to be successful. There are some players that just do it. (VY's greatest asset, but he had a lot of help.) Great players earn coaches kudos. Rarely does a great coach earn a great player kudos. The NFL doesn't put a massively high priority on who coaches a player. They measure the player, his physical, mental and emotional skills. If the kid fits the bill he gets drafted. Like Mario Williams. Bottom line the great programs have a large number of great players. We have not had that in quite a while. We have gotten better under Fran's watch. We have landed, more as Miller says NFL/upper Big 12 type players than we have since 98.

As far as bashing Fran's decision on Darnell. I call that Bashing. WE have no evidence yet to make a decision. Let's wait and see what happens. I do know that Fran absolutley dominated Chizik on T+1. Darnell may just be exactly what we need. We need to give him a chance. To not do so is bashing without any real substance. You got to really reach to form any opinion of substance.



"only one thing is important!"

[This message has been edited by OPAG (edited 5/19/2006 5:19p).]

OPAG!

"57"

Maybe Murph and Taylor would of earned some starting time at tu in 2003 but that's iffy.

Williams, Sloan and Thomas were still around. Boy did they get wasted their senior years.

"only one thing is important!"

So your not even going to address the fact that the other posters comments are factually wrong?

<clapping> well done, opag.

Another very rational post by OPAG. I am becoming a fan.

The subtlety and careful thinking evident in your posts will be lost on most, OPAG. Thanks for posting anyway.

quote:

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Aggies Only, on the other hand, is just bunch of whiney Ags who pay to ***** at each other. I knew the Regular football forum is bad, but we have sips and bored people among us who like to stir things up... these are all verified Aggies.

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Thingy, I have read quite of bit of your material here, and I too think you'd be a great addition on AO. Don't let the current state of affairs sour you on AO. It wasn't always this way and hopefully it'll change soon. Times are rough and it's getting to some of even the best of Ags unfortunately.

Thingy, that didnt happen to be me that left my account logged on in the SEC was it?

[This message has been edited by bullard21k (edited 5/19/2006 6:02p).]

OPAG,
I have a question about your Christian benevolence work. I've worked in that field.
Please email me cornerst@odsgc.net

quote:

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Aggies Only, on the other hand, is just bunch of whiney Ags who pay to ***** at each other. I knew the Regular football forum is bad, but we have sips and bored people among us who like to stir things up... these are all verified Aggies.

There is one female poster there who I won't call out by username, but DAMN menopause must be kicking her ass. I've never seen anyone so overtly negative and hateful.

Aggies Only is just a bunch of grown people acting like fools, with less useless "spam" posts. Although I am sure there are some quality posts, from what I saw they were few and far between.

---

Thingy has it figured out!


On the other hand, other reasons exist for joining (e.g. supporting the board). If the only reason I subscribed was for AO content, I would have quit shortly after I joined.

And as some have stated, we are very polarized right now which has caused the degradation!

It will get a whole lot better after we win the Big 12 this year!!!!!!!

[This message has been edited by hcrAg (edited 5/19/2006 6:45p).]

Thingy, you presence would be useful on AO.

Thingy,
I remember your "stuff" when I used to frequent here more than I do now. I would invite you "over" as well, but it would be "held against" you later, and no one should have to bear that cross.

quote:

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I personally believe that Fran seriously outcoached Mack last year in T+1. We didn't win though. I believe Fran seriously outcoached Stoops in '04 another loss.

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Simply delusional.

fran did outcoach stoops in 04....even stoops said that. as far as t+1 last year....i don't know if running the same play 99% of the time is "outcoaching", but it was pretty effective.

if I could get 6 yds on first down, 5 yds on second down, and then do that again, I think I might like the option.

throw in a pass or two, ever now and then, and stop them a time or two, shoot, I'd take it.

The object is to win, right? Let's see what happens. It might be mildly appetizing or it could be Sweeeeeeeeet!!!!


I will at least hope for the Ags to win them all. That seems like more fun than writing letters to the editor of the Chronicle about why the Ags suck. But, that's just me.

edit> ooops, sry. thought I was on the option sucks thread.

[This message has been edited by Popeye (edited 5/19/2006 9:37p).]

Hey Jgypsum. Not sure if your are joking when you say I was delusioinal. If your are seriously calling me delusional, you don't think you can just throw out some off handed personal slap and not have me challenge it.

Please back up with more than your sacarstic emotional trype how I ma delusional?

I am more than happy to debate with you over who was the better coached team on T+1.

Coaching is about putting together effective game plans to give your team the best chance to win. There is absolutely no doubt that our game plans on both sides fo the ball were better. They couldn't stop us on offense, even had Mack squealing like a stuck pig at the end of the game saying "they weren't prepared for what we did yada yada yada" Started croaking about playing bad. BS, they got manhandle in the trenches to the most part and out schemed.

One ST play, where an assignment was blown and Gorrer's dropping a sure fire TD interceptioin that went right through his hands on 3rd and 5 and McGee's fumble were the three key plays in the game. Anyway you cut it though Fran our coached Brown on both sides of the ball. The sips were massively more talented and injury free. Fran's game plan kept us in that game and gave us a chance to win.

As I said just because you lose doesn't mean you have done a bad job of coaching.

So now genius, please explain how I an delusional, Unless of course your joking. Then make that clear.

"only one thing is important!"

OPAG,
Excellent posts! I didn't realize you played for the Ags. I'm very optimistic, based on everything you've said, about the upcoming season.

Your 5:15 post of 19 May is well developed and accurately reflects you opinion. I don't disagree with the bulk of it.

I don't believe Fran "seriously" outcoached Mac last year.

I thought even if Reggie was not going to play, he should have suited up and come out like he could play.

I thought our punt formation directly contributed to the blocked punt - so some of that is on coaching.

I failed to understand why we under utilized Lane and Tellus earlier in the year.

I failed to understand how in general, we were very poor at half time adjustments.

tu was definately more talented, but we beat OU when they were #1.

I did like the effort (tu game) and we are more talented across the board this year. I have concerns on OL going foward.

I'm all for Fran to suceed here, I have critized him in the past, but will refrain until given reason to.

I will not make any flipant comments to your posts going forward, you are a sensative guy.

Respectively submitted,

jrgypsum
'87

This reminds me of my colleagues sitting around the conference table, articulating the complexities of cardiac surgery and concluding the discussion with optimism for the future in spite of the patient having died.

It's always best to be optimistic when evaluating each case, even when you know the outcome is uncertain at best, and likely to be disappointing.

sharpdressedman,
Your analogy fits well for the 2003 cardiac patient, but not for 2006.

Your optimism comes from living in Gainesville, no doubt. The defense is still a large question.

d.

Yes David, I live in Gainesville, Florida, but my heart is in Aggieland. I know the defense is the big question mark . . . but we've got some talent there and it sounds like Darnell is simplifying the scheme and won't shuffle the players so much like Torbush did.

[This message has been edited by Corps74 (edited 5/20/2006 11:18a).]

All the points you made are argurable. A number of teams run the punt formation and do so succesfully. There are reasons why that formation exist, and other 'odd' formations as well, and I am not going to take the time to detail them. I will say West Virginia burned the crud out of Penn State with it. Fran has burned a number of teams with ST plays and his track record of ST play is pretty good. But of course I understand that ST play has a lot to do with quality depth. Something we have had none of the past three years. Simply put these formations are effective. You are assuming that because we ran that formation we got a punt blocked. Well JG, we got punt blocks against tu for a number of years running the old standard formation. So your simple analysis is faulty. Like any Punt team formation you have to take care of your assingments. those who don't like that formation dislike it because it scares folk, is different and it kind of Looks like your going to get it blocked every time.

As far as game day coaching. Fran handed Mack his hat that day. As far as under utilizing Lane, I would agree against ISU. As far as under utilizing Tellus, I disagree. We throw the ball towards our TE's a good bit. He's was a true fish ya know.

Fran had a smart game plan against the sips really smart. The sips had Huff and some really strong secondary guys going against our RS Fish QB and our second set of receivers. Thus we wisely didn't throw the ball down the middle of field. The sips love to attack with their ends. They killed us the year before by making that half time adjustment and we Couldn't do anything about it. This year we took advantage of their aggressiveness, exploited our good matchups and absolutely abused their LBs and DE s with the option and with Lane. It was far and away the best game plan and it worked. Defensively we sold out to put pressure on VY, every thing was built around holding VY in check. If we were going to get beat, someone else was going to do it. For the first time all year we simplified our defensive scheme and penned our ears back and attacked VY doubled up Thomas and jumped the out routes. As I said early if we don't drop the mistakes VY made due to the pressure, We win that game!

As far as being sensitive, MAYBE. But I think the opposite is true. I am just tired of these personal off handed unsupported statements like "I'm delusional" or "Fran is incompetent" or "Fran can't make adjustments --like some he can just go in and say the magic word 'adjustments' and every thing is going to be alright--if you getting physically dominated by a team there is just so much you can do to make adjustments) Oh I love this one, "because Fran makes x dollars we ought to be beating every one" or because "We, Texas A&M have been great (we are legends in our own mine) and have a great tradition and great resources therefore we out to be killing everyone" all the while totally discounting and ignoring the real state of our program in 03 (then calling me a player basher when I bring that up) as well as ignoring the traditions and resources of the main programs we are competing with for top recruits. We furthermore discounted the improvements of other programs like tech and Okie lite that were well on track before Fran came. Yet some how because Fran is making a lot of money and we have some traditions and some great facilities (recent upgrades by the way)we ought to be upper echelon. Hey hello! I'm not delusional they are! TAKE A LOOK. tu, ou, LSU ALL have equal or greater resources then we do! They all have indoor facilities that they have had for a while. They have better football traditions (I didn't say better atmosphere, no one touches us there, or at least no one did. We'll see!) than we do and THEY HAVE ALL WON A MNC in the last five years and have been in BCS games regularly BEFORE FRAN EVEN CAME! HELLOOOOOOOOOO!!

Let's take a look at the nitty gritty of our program, OUR PLAYER BASE pre 03'.

How many significant seniors played last year? McNeal, Carter, Dela Garza, HTower, Mobley, Foliaki, Appel, R Jones, Jolly, Ross, Steamer, Manning, Green (13 total). I can't think of anyone else off the top of my head. Of this group, (except Ross and Steamer --who later replaced Dela Garza) all began as starters. Only Jolly and Manning--I think, got through the year without losing significant playing time to injury or losing their starters role by getting flat beat out by underclassmen.

Only Carter and Jolly can rightfully claim to have had their best year their senior campaign. Of course these are the two that actually got through the year with out significant injuries. Of this group, 3 Mobley, Foliaki and Green were JUCO'. An additional 3 (McNeal, Manning, DelaGarza) were true seniors from the 01 fish class. Leaving 6 RS seniors from the 00 class. (Carter, HTower, Appel, R Jones, Jolly, Ross and Steamer.) Of those 6 only Appel and Jolly could rightfully be labeled as 'top teir' echelon Big XII players'(possibly Carter and Manning but that is debatable.) That leaves a grand total of 4 seniors from the class of 00 that could be anywhere remotely labeled as impact players. From the class of 01' only McNeal can be labeled an impact player. Carrying that over to this year Riley and Shroeder will be the only two from the class of 01' that will go into the year slated as starters! Think about that for a minute!

So a grand total (AND I AM BEING GENEROUS) of 7 from the combined classes of 00 and 01 that can be realisticly sniff the label of 'impact players'. Any way you cut that it is really really low. Miller is right. It is not bashing, it is factual and objective. Now SUBJECTIVELY, I just LOVE THESE GUYS. They made a choice to come to A&M, they stayed the course through all the changes. They are to the most part quality Aggies and quality people, they are not however, upper echelon Big 12/NFL caliber players that is clear and from a football perspective inargurable.

Let's also make something clear here. FRAN WAS EXTREMELY LOYAL TO THEM AND MADE EVERY ATTEMPT TO REWARD THESE GUYS. ALL OF THEM WERE GIVEN EVERY OPPORTUNITY TO START AND MAKE PLAYS> ALL OF THEM! He caught a lot of flack for it and now even his job his job security is at risk. And OBJECTIVILY SPEAKING OUGHT TO BE! He made that choice and he will be responsible for it. But the aspect that Fran is bashed for throwing these guys under the bus is just flat wrong!


Some here say Fran couldn't develop them. That is neophytes talk. How do you 'develop' a player to be great. YOU CAN'T. I whole heartedly disagree. Seven guys from Fran's Bama class were drafted. Fran has an excellent track record of finding and developing talent, PERIOD! Go tell NFL scouts that Dennis Franchione is an incompetent player developer, they would no right away that you were not a coach and knew nothing about the nitty grittys of coaching! Coming out of Bama Dennis Franchione was consensusly considered one of the top coaches in college football. Bama offered him a guaranteed 10 year contract for more money than we offered him, conveniently ignored by the bashers. I guess Fran has developed Alzheimers or something and has become an blithering idiot. (No offense intended to those who have or loved ones with it. Alzhemiers a horrible and mentally debilitating disease. I have to put this qualifier in because there are those who will try to take that sort of comment and twist it to attack me adn derail the point of the thread. It has happened plenty.)

To further solidify my postion. Of the seniors listed how many even got sniffed in the first day of the draft? How many next year (Maybe Shroeder because of his game breaking speed and smarts. Warren and Bullet don't count they are 03 guys) The draft is all about individual player ability. That is why Mario Williams that came from a weak program was drafted No 1. (along with 2 other of his buddies in the first round) The NFL makes it's picks based on INDIVIDUAL talent, physical skills, smarts, emotional stability, coachability, character, individual leadership qualities, and personality (ability to mesh with a team)

Simply put the NFL has varified Miller's claims and there is no real objective arguement that anyone can put up to refute it.
The only objections have been stuff like Miller is old or grammar smack or that he is bashing the players or things like I am delusional, or that Fran is incompetent.

Hey maybe, just maybe there is a real possibility that overall our football talent base wasn't very good. How about this, name one player who transered or quit that has gone anywhere and blown the doors off? (Maybe Long, but that was simply because Reg was here and Long wasn't drafted either!) How about it Farmer--great guy marginal back--, Brandon Johnson, Webb, Mayes, Black, Anyone? Maybe I am wrong here but I can't recall one player becoming an impact player at the lower levels. If there is one please tell me who. I do know that none of these players got drafted and none that I know of are part of NFL rosters. Is it possible that maybe, just maybe, they were not great football talents?!

The NFL draft over the last 4 years would sure seem to indicate it. But the bashers say that it's Fran's fault, he can't develop players. Maybe so, but as a coach I will never be able to 'Make' a player great. I can only develop what is there and as old cliche's go. "I can't make what God didn't give ya" and "Bottom line it ain't about the X's and O's it's about the Willies and the Joes"! The final arguement that Bashers have is that Fran makes the doe and is the HC and therefore he is the natural fall guy. Even Fran has agreed with that! However, that doesn't make it entirely fair and the constant deragotory shots taken at him are both useless and actually detrimental to the Texas A&M program that he happens to be the HC of at this time.

Oh and the only other argument the bashers uses is that Fran is not an Ag, He's the 'hired help'. So therefore it's Ok to rip him. Not only do I disagree with this, it is totally contraty to every value I hold dear as an Ag. Hello guys, every coach we have had in the lasty 50 years was not an Ag with exception of Gene Stallings. Being an Ag or not being an Ag has nothing to do with proper objecitve analysis of the Texas A&M program and is not gie one license to make stupid un supported arguements and justify it by saying well this guys is an Ag so it's OK. We cannot slander a non Ag and justify it with our Ag tag. It's funny, many here had no problems attacking Miller who is a varified Ag and even tried to say he stole his Ag status, simply because Miller doesn't believe Fran is the sole or even main problem with Texas A&M football.

And you call me sensitive!?!?!? I call that Machiavallean.

"only one thing is important!"