You are old army when you start refering to everyone else as new army.

I looked at my own class and thought Old Army had gone to hell. As someone who was raised Aggie from birth, it pains me to see New Army and their attitudes.

Old Army seems to commonly refer to those who have graduated, but to me, it represents a line dividing a certain way of thinking about Aggieland. Old Army is redass (not just limited to the Corps) and those who remember Aggieland before it became just a fashionable alternative to t.u.

aggiebame,

You could not be more right!!

I am class of '94 and I am back in school finishing my masters...............and let me tell you how disappointing is to see new army and their lack of spirit towards A&M, former students and traditions. It is very heart breaking to see what has happened to A&M in such a short time (since I graduated) ofcourse there are still some of the new ags that could fit in with what you and I think A&M used to be, but unfortunately they are the minority.

A very different mentality now a days on this campus, very different.

I cast my vote w/ Ag62... although I have never sung the Spirit except in it's A-M-C format, I didn't make it until class of '91.

I do think that there is a new division of New Army that roughly coincides with the hiatus of Bonfire... maybe we call it Post Army.

Ags still cover the spectrum from RedAss to 2% regardless.

[This message has been edited by Bockaneer (edited 7/27/2005 5:50p).]

I could be wrong, but I thought you officially became Old Army when you turn on the radio and turn to your wife and say "What kind of crap is this? These kids have gotten out of control"



"The difference between 'involvement' and 'commitment' is like an eggs-and-ham breakfast: the chicken was 'involved' - the pig was 'committed'"
-unknown

lol, I love the off-season....I was curious how long something silly could run and apparently it's longer than I would have originally thought

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Check out "Texas A&M & Baseball In No Particular Order"
at tamu-and-baseball.com

quote:

---

If I mention the Uncartoonist, and you say "huh?" you may be New Army.

---

Long live the Uncartoonist

"I feel like we have some unfinished business." - Chris Walker
On the bandwagon since birth. Raised in the bleachers of Kyle, Olsen, and G. Rollie White

If you want a somewhat serious response:

With the advantage of my advancing age, I think I see developing three rather distinct groups, more or less.

I consider true Old Army to be the boys that attended this great school before it went coed. Now, within THAT group, they probably have some that consider true Ol' Army to be the ones who attended when corps membership was required all four years, and other differences.

The second group, of which I am one, I would consider mid-Ol' Army. This is the group that attended A&M between about about '69 and (this part is tricky...) '82. This group attended when there was only about 1/3 women- less in the earlier years, before laptops,gameboys,cell phones [even VCRs and cable were novelties], before the Ags were kicking everyone's butt in football and TAMU was an "in" place, when basketball was at G Rollie, when we still had a pool next to Kyle, when Northgate was only two bars (maybe three), "howdy" was still commonly heard, most everyone stayed for the post-game yell if we were outscored, drinking was still allowed for 18 yrs old and drinking and driving was allowed [yeah, believe it], and tuition was $6.00 per hour. The lack of the computer/technology age kept us pretty much "old school".

Though I wasn't on campus past that, I'm not sure there's much that distinguishes the classes after that from the present day, other than Bonfire (which of course, is HUGE).


[This message has been edited by AnalogyAg (edited 7/27/2005 9:43p).]

What about us folks who never attended college? Maybe we would be "non-army"?

you're ol army when you accept $3.50 bottles of domestic

"When I read about the evils of drinking, I quit reading." --W.C. Fields

I became old army when I reported in to Dorm 11 on a hot Sunday afternoon in August of 1970. I began the change from a semi self important high school whizkid to just another fish jones in the Aggie Band. I survived it all. That was the day I joined the ranks of Old Army. Still there.

"Recall.....Step off on Hullabaloo..."

Ol' Army '01 baby.

Least that's what our fish shirts said.

KS 361
"Love, Honor, Truth"

quote:

---

and you're upset about all the new construction in Aggieland

---

****, that was me before I ever stepped foot on campus. BS tearing down Puryear and Law. Then you tear down Deware? I'm still pissed about the old Horseshoe being torn down.

Here's a sure fire way to find out if you are Old Army or not. Works every time.
Go to yell practice, and during one of those semi-quiet pauses in the middle of a yell, shout out your class year at the top of your lungs. A good one is during the "Squads left" yell, right after "farmers, farmers we're alright", you yell "'05, whooooop!".
If people around you turn to look at you and then laugh, you're old army.

Wait...they still have yell practices at A&M, right?

army01 makes a good point. I think you are old army if you remember/attended when people actually lived in Puryear and Law.

"Old Army" is 1876 thru 1973. What else did you think I'd say?

1964 is indeed a milestone (AMC/AMU). But I don't think the Corps changed much between 1964 and 1973. I think I experienced Old Army.

In the fall of 1972 the first on-campus women's dorm opened. That undoubtedly contributed to a major culture shift. At that time the student population was about 15,000; since that time it has tripled.

But to me "Old Army" and "New Army" refers to the Corps of Cadets specifically. Since I graduated I have relied on accounts from recent Ags who have said that things have radically changed just in the last five years. I think the post-Bonfire era probably deserves the "New Army" label.

The general attitude among non-regs that the Corps is a relic that deserves not much more than a museum is "New Army". I don't know how prevalent that sentiment is but I've heard it.

Regarding CTs, "Old Army" is the way it was when I was there. Everything since then is "New Army".

I would expect things to be different after 32 years, but what alarms me is the remarks of former students that are still in their 20's. If they think things have changed fast, then the "Old Army" that I knew is about as real today as a Midnight Yell Practice fable.

Too bad -- you truly don't know what you're missing. BUT, changes are inevitable and not all bad. Aggieland is still a very special place. You will appreciate it even more as you get older.

I tend to agree with Old Army being AMC days and New Army being after. As for what has been labeled Post Army(I like this, btw), Post Army:

-Talks on cell phones with those earphone connections between classes

-Won't look you in the eye when you say howdy to them and sometimes won't even say it back

-Dunks their rings in ice cream(flame me all you want, I stand by it)

-Might have come to A&M only for an education and thinks of traditions as silly and unnecessary

-Has never done an honest day's work outside in the heat or felt the priceless bond with people with whom they've finished a project much bigger than anything they could do alone(an experience that Bonfire provides)

The difference between New Army and "Post Army" IMO, is that in the era of New Army, even if a student came from a big city, by the end of his stay, he would have learned the values and virtues of rural Texas, while post army could come from New York City, graduate, and not feel any different.

true, true.

Now what the hell is this about Puryear and Law being torn down??!!! lol At least the Crocker Cocks are still standing!

You become Old Army when you only remember the good times at A&M and forget most of the $#@* that you sometimes had to endure.

If you wear a plaid maroon sports coat to the game, you might be Old Army.

Ol' Army is an attitude. It has a lot less to do with University milestones, such as the AMC/AMU switch.

quote:

---

Although in an honest answer to your question, someone once told me that you were truely Old Army when the fish class of your graduating year graduates....so for me, that would be not until the class of 06 graduates.

---

Graduate?

Or supposed to graduate?

I'm '03, and many in my class still haven't graduated.

"TKO you're a piece of work." -- ontheway

quote:

---

The difference between New Army and "Post Army" IMO, is that in the era of New Army, even if a student came from a big city, by the end of his stay, he would have learned the values and virtues of rural Texas, while post army could come from New York City, graduate, and not feel any different.

---

Almost every student is from one of the major metropolitan areas of Texas. It is where the population lives now. It is not some pinko conspiracy, the jobs are in the cities, so people move there.


"TKO you're a piece of work." -- ontheway

Old Army - When men were men, and war was war, and every Aggie was in the Corps.


Whoop!

quote:

---

Talks on cell phones with those earphone connections between classes

---

Not sure I get this one....

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Check out "Texas A&M & Baseball In No Particular Order"
at tamu-and-baseball.com

I think this is an appropriate time and place to define "Old Army." Now if you happen to be a grad with a 0 in your class year don't be alarmed because I am not going to define you out of the Old Army tag ... if you feel you fit the mold. Old Army is not defined by years or epochs or events or shoe color, it is a covenant that spans 129 years ... "True to each other as Aggies can be." That covenant is that members of the Corps of Cadets ascribe to duty, honor and country and to each other in the manner set forth by preceding generations of Corps members.

The Corps of Cadets' early history set the tone for succeeding generations of Corps life. Out of necessity due to the small number of faculty and administrators, in the 1870s the Cadet Corps was encouraged to run itself. A chain of command in order of class seniority was the basis for order. Supervision of daily activities was through cadet officers. Commandants through those years were either civilians or junior Army officers. Corps life was patterned on Army models of the period modified to fit a college organization. The Corps administering itself was reinforced in 1899 when Corps Commander E. J. Kyle ('99) was named Commandant for a period of time. Administration of Corps life naturally included provisions for discipline and punishment if necessary. This included a system of demerits, (rams or gigs)on the upper end up to corporal punishment (the Board) on the lower end. A Senior Court composed of senior cadets was seated to hear major disciplinary problems. Through this period the principles of fairplay, personal dignity and respect, and brotherhood were paramount. This is the foundation period of the Texas A&M Corps of Cadets.

I do not doubt that conflicts arose from time to time during this period between the Corps officers and the faculty over matters of authority. But nothing made headlines until 1913. Texas Governor Colquitt sent a letter to Prexy Milner of A&M stating he had received letters complaining of hazing at A&M and to put a stop to it. A faculty committee gathered evidence of breaches of college rules, and the Corps predictably rebelled at this intervention. For the first time there was a faculty/Corps showdown. The faculty persisted and expelled 22 cadets for hazing. The Corps rebelled. A Proclamation signed by 466 Freshmen, Sophomores and Juniors demanded the 22 seniors be reinstated (and that no action be taken against the persons who painted 1916 on the watertower) or the signees would attend no more academic duties at A&M. The faculty held firm and 466 underclassmen were dismissed on grounds of insubordination. Before leaving, the underclassmen held a "final review" on the parade field and 120 seniors stood in the reviewing line. (266 students were later reinstated) Corps life apparently resumed in its former pattern. It would be 34 years before the next test of wills between the faculty and the Corps.

At the end of WWII an enormous number of veterans arrived at A&M to take advantage of the GI Bill. To ease the overcrowding A&M began conducting classes at the former Bryan Air Base which had been deactivated and turned over to A&M as an Annex. Since the capacity of the Air Base was about equal to the size of the freshman class in 1947, Prexy Gibb Gilchrist decreed that all Fish would be housed at the Air Base (and the remainder of the Corps on the main campus.) The Corps again was up in arms. The argument was that the Fish would be denied that first year indoctrination into Corps life and there would be irreperable harm to Corps traditions and functions. (The faculty/administration were pleased at the prospect of ending the specter of hazing in the Corps.) Unrest was growing within the Corps. (A fire hose was turned on to the Dean of Men's house where he and his wife were sleeping; Prexy Gilchrist tried to get his wife to move off campus but she declined.) On the night of Jan 28, 1947, the Corps marched to Prexy Gilchrist's house and a spokesman for the Corps informed him that all seniors in the Class of 1947 who had earned commissions under his presidency wished to resign their commissions. Gilchrist accepted the resignations. After a 5 year haitus the first freshman class to return to main campus was in the Fall of 1952, and even then assigned to northside dorms while upperclassmen were assigned to southside dorms. In Fall 1953 Freshmen were once again integrated into Corps outfits.

In my first conversation with a Pisshead in the Fall of '52, I was informed "Old Army has gone to Hell." I am sure it was said in 1917 when the Corps changed from Cadet Gray to olive drab. And again in 1913 when 466 cadets were dismissed from A&M. And assuredly it was said in 1947 when Fish were separated from upperclassmen. And again when the name was changed from TAMC to TAMU (TAMU did not rhyme with "true to each other as Aggies can be" in the Spirit.) And again when females were admitted to the college, and to the Corps, and to the FTAB, etc. And it will be said with every change that occurs in the future.

From my observations, the decline in the spirit of Old Army began in 1947. For the first time the administration had broken the solidarity of the Corps in running its own affairs. From that time there has been a steady erosion of the procedures, customs and traditions long held in those earlier years.

I spend as much time as possible on campus and make it a point on game days, parents weekends, etc., to visit the Corps area. I recognize many to the things we used to do ... things that I am sure were handed down from many years before I got to campus. But today's Corps members go through the motions as best they are allowed .... and the bright spot that bureaucrats can never change is that brotherhood, friendship, stick-together-against-all-odds, spirit which will live on forever. Fish buddies are still as close as blood brothers.

This thread reminds me of one of my favorite old quotes which goes something like this...

quote:

---

About the time you realize your parents were right, you have children who think you are wrong.

---

I imagine, just as in the case of bonfire, which had dire consequences and high visibility, that many of the more red ass traditions of the Corps have been dropped over the years following accidents or near accidents. Law suits, threatened or real, political correctness, and other factors have diminished the severity of the Aggie experience over the years.

Just as I'm certain that my fish year of '74-'75 was considerably more hard core than this years fish class, I'm certain that the pre-AMU crowd are thinking what a cush time I must have had...


Never Say Die!

Two ways to define Old Army:

1. You are a pre-1950 class Ag and remember WWII.
2. You don't worry about whether you are Old Army.

(Actually, I would have to agree also with the AMC definitions on the board here (my father-in-law falls into this category.)

I'm class of 93, and I am definitely not Old Army. I don't even think Bonfire in the 90's is Old Army. It was the end of an era, but not Old Army.

The thing is, if being Old Army or not puts a dividing line in the sand, then we as Ags are not looking at it the right way...sometimes we sound like, "you're new army so you stink."

Of course it can be good bull, like the conflict between bq's/ct's. As a bq fish I once had a ct upperclassman tell me, "we hate you guys during the week, but on saturday, you're our bq's, and everybody else better not talk bad about you."

When the incoming class of fish weren't born when you graduated.
Before the frats/SB's were recognized on campus.
When there was a Real 12th man Kick Off Team.
When there was Bonfire. When there was quading. When axe handles were used with a purpose. When you could haze the hell out of fish with out going to jail.
My hat is off to the guys I consider Ol' Army, pre-1981.

When people around started making posts congratulating the tsips on their teams accomplishments.

The Corps revolt in 1913 and again in 1947 brought a lot of bad press for A&M. Outsiders considered them as evidence of undisciplined students. The Corps take was exactly the opposite. By 1947 the Cadet Corps at A&M had embraced a 70 year legacy of honorable achievements by its preceeding generations and the Corps felt duty bound to protect that heritage from tinkerings that would alter its proven formula for developing A&M men.

Cadets in 1947 pointed with pride to exceptional events in Corps history to justify its claim to continue its present course:

To that date the Cadet Corps had produced 29 General officers and one Admiral and six of its former members had been awarded the Congressional Medal of Honor.

When the Spanish American War began, 26 Cadets were commissioned at once and 20 more were commissioned later to serve in that war.

In 1917 when war was declared in WWI, the entire senior class volunteered en masse one month before graduation. (A&M conferred their degrees a month later under a tree at the training ground near San Antonio.) Fifty-two former students gave their lives in WWI.

By Dec 7, 1941, 5,000 former members of the Corps of Cadets were already on duty in the US military ... including 46 who were on duty at Bataan and Corregidor. In addition, more than 20,000 other former students served in WWII.

Members of the Corps in those earlier years had also founded such traditions as Silver Taps, Muster, The 12th Man, Reveille, Ross Volunteers, FTAB and all of A&Ms music.

The Class of 1947 felt honor bound to do its utmost to preserve the integrity of A&Ms Corps of Cadets. Separating the Freshmen from the Corps, regardless of the reasonings, in their opinion would kill the traditions of the Corps.

It did not help that President Gibb Gilchrist was a graduate of the University of Texas, whom many members of the Corps came to regard as a saboteur.

It is worthy of note that in 1948 a new Commandant of the Corps was assigned to quell the uproar in the Corps --- he was Col Haydon Boatner, former Chief of Staff to Gen Joe Stillwell of WWII fame. In 1953, Boatner was transferred to Korea where his assignment was to put down a violent uprising in the POW Camps housing North Korean prisoners.

If this brief tour of Corps history has warmed your heart toward those old buzzards of former years, and you now have a greater pride in your association with the Corps of Cadets, you may righfully consider yourself Old Army. As long as one person remains to retell this history, Old Army will never die.

[This message has been edited by fossil_ag (edited 7/29/2005 4:24p).]

I'm OK with an Aggie being 'ol Army if he saw a movie at Guion Hall.

And the movie had to be "We've Never Been Licked" to really qualify.

But I have a far better criteria. If you remember when the "horselaugh" in the yell was really a big Old Army fart instead of this New Army wimpy "SSssssssssssss", then you are "OLD ARMY".

You are Old Army if you remember what reaction was expected of you if when strolling the terrain in Houston, Austin, Dallas or Ft Worth and you heard someone yell "Old Army FIGHT!"

I especially want to thank fossil for his post. I never knew most of the history he reports. I reported to Moore Hall in August 1965, and was a member of the first class to wear AMUs. We were pissed, but while our upperclassmen were smug about continuing to wear AMCs, they were sorry to learn that there would be no more cross-stitching on Corps uniforms. I think corps turds had mixed feelings about girls on campus. There were only 300 of them in 1965 - 8000 men. The corps was pretty stout. We filled the entire quad area and some dorms on north campus, as well as the "day-duck" units. We were 6000 strong.

I've had a number of conversations with my old buddies about what "Old Army" is or was. I think fossil captured the central idea that Old Army was about how much power the corps and corps turds had/have to do whatever the hell it/they decided was "good bull," without any interference by outsiders. The "Old Army is dead" whine usually came up when somebody or some outfit couldnt do something they wanted to do. I had a fairly Old Army fish year, and I dished it out big-time as a pisshead, First Sergeant, RV and C.O. Frankly, Old Army wasn't always the best way to be, and in some cases it was wrong-headed.

Some Ags define Old Army is a a stirring feeling you get when you hear the War Hymn and hear wildcating. You might sing out "Old Army!" if you saw some fish taking somebody to the quad. It's a kind of feeling I still get when I see a bunch of fish fall out of Lacy (which you can still see before every football game), or when I see a zip all decked out in boots and a midnight shirt.

Bonfire is gone, and so are deal fights in Duncan, corps trips to Fort Worth, and lots of other things. The corps-doing-whatever-they-want Old Army is dead, and has been since 1947 according to fossil. The other Old Army lives. The former is a whine, the latter is the dream I followed to A&M, along with my dad, two uncles, my sister-in-law, my daugher, a niece and a nephew. People dont follow dead things.

Highway 6 runs both ways...