Ridge14 said:

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Do people really not believe that Jimbo is an upgrade over Sumlin?

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Setting aside the ethics stuff, and my fear that we are being used by his agent, my concern is that we might get a version of Jimbo who is more damaged than his overall WL record. I admit that there is a "wouldn't want to join any club who would have people like me as a member" component to my thinking, but if not having an experienced QB ready when Starkel went down is a knock on Sumlin's QB development, why isn't that an issue for Fisher?

Then there's always the question of how a nasty divorce and teenage sons with your ex might affect performance. That probably wouldn't be a question if the breakup of his marriage didn't immediately precede his worst season and his altercation with a fan.

It probably also would be less of a concern for me if this season didn't have a bunch of cases of P5 coaches acting like the stress was breaking them: Jones, McElwain, and Gary Andersen being the most visible.

so he needed to contradict the ADs office, the school president and the police, at the time. not now, but at the time? got it.

hindsight is a wonderful and terrible thing all at the same time. it allows us to both learn from our mistakes but exposes our faults all at the same time.

TXAggie2011 said:

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Thompson said:

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TXAggie2011 said:

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Don't you think it interesting that your articles implicate specific people and offices---they even directly accuse Bobby Bowden, by name, of trying to involve himself in an investigation---yet only one mentions Jimbo....

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Again- you're playing dumb. I never said J imbo controlled the police investigation. Read my post- he had far more than enough evidence to kick him off the team, and he chose football over the right thing. It wasn't a close call - regardless of what everyone else in that cesspool did.

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Jimbo wouldn't have had to control the police investigation to have been terribly in the wrong.

You didn't answer the question.

I know that you wanted Jimbo to take unilateral action, basically unilaterally have a student conduct hearing and effectively kick Jameis out of school. I'm not playing dumb about that, but I don't think that's usually how that works at a university. Having read their code of conduct policy, I'm not sure that would have even been possible.

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What question? Do I think it's interesting? I think it's irrelevant. I'm not claiming he had a hand in the investigation (and in any event, the fact that he's not mentioned in those articles in that regard doesn't prove anything one way or the other). He could and should have kicked him off the team based on the overwhelming publicly available evidence. He wasn't helpless to kick a player off his own team. Do you even believe your own arguments? I take it back - I don't think you're 'playing.'

Thompson said:

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He could and should have kicked him off the team. The fact that others did the wrong thing didn't make it okay for him to follow suit. Your 'he was too busy coaching' argument is incredibly weak. I seem to recall other coaches 'having time' to discipline or remove players.

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Players have been suspended, including Jameis Winston, and players have been kicked off their football team while Jimbo has been the head coach.

But they have an athletic department policy and they have a university policy which Jimbo and anyone else has to follow and any disciplinary action would need be taken within that framework.


(What we know: Much too long after the incident, Winston went through the student conduct process in front of an outside, independent arbiter. He didn't find sufficient evidence as required by their university policies to punish Winston.)

technoviking said:

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so he needed to contradict the ADs office, the school president and the police, at the time. not now, but at the time? got it.

hindsight is a wonderful and terrible thing all at the same time. it allows us to both learn from our mistakes but exposes our faults all at the same time.

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So if others do the wrong thing it's okay for him to hide behind them? I've listed the publicly available evidence (what 'hindsight?' - that was known to him when he could have acted). In light of the publicly broadcast evidence, it doesn't matter if the corrupt police, the DA, the school, the State legislature, and the governor declare it's 'Jameis Winston' day and throw a parade. Facts are facts, and Jimbo turned a blind eye to rape to win a game.

Thompson said:

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technoviking said:

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so he needed to contradict the ADs office, the school president and the police, at the time. not now, but at the time? got it.

hindsight is a wonderful and terrible thing all at the same time. it allows us to both learn from our mistakes but exposes our faults all at the same time.

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So if others do the wrong thing it's okay for him to hide behind them? I've listed the publicly available evidence (what 'hindsight?' - that was known to him when he could have acted). In light of the publicly broadcast evidence, it doesn't matter if the corrupt police, the DA, the school, the State legislature, and the governor declare it's 'Jameis Winston' day and throw a parade. Facts are facts, and Jimbo turned a blind eye to rape to win a game.

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so if jimbo is hired by texas a&m and i cheer on the team after they win a game he coached in, what will that say about me in your eyes?

Quote:

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What question? Do I think it's interesting? I think it's irrelevant. I'm not claiming he had a hand in the investigation (and in any event, the fact that he's not mentioned in those articles in that regard doesn't prove anything one way or the other). He could and should have kicked him off the team based on the overwhelming publicly available evidence. He wasn't helpless to kick a player off his own team. Do you even believe your own arguments? I take it back - I don't think you're 'playing.'

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I was making my own point about the evidence of Jimbo's involvement. I understand what you want. I've addressed that and I'll address it again.

I've never said he was "hopeless", but I've read their athletic department policies and its not such that a coach can snap his fingers and a player is kicked off a team. There are at least two other people/bodies involved in that at FSU, plus an appeals process.

Snap E Tom said:

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4 said:

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Is OP British? What's with "arsehat"?

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Probably a hipster trying to be worldly.

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nailed it

good point above about the divorce.

we've seen that impact an aggie football season before

Irish_Man said:

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Well, does A&M want to win but sell its soul to do so?

Would anyone here be happy with an sec title but a head coach covered up a rape/sexual assault by a major contributor?

Can't control the players, some will screw up. But a coach can control his actions and i don't like Fischer and his willingness to overlook rape.

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I never heard or saw any evidence that he played a part in that sham investigation. All I ever heard was that at the end, he threw up his hands and said "welp, the prosecutor didn't file charges and FSU didn't find him guilty of sexual misconduct, so I'm not doing anything either."

Not saying that's a morally strong position, but it's not the same as participating in a cover up.

technoviking said:

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Thompson said:

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technoviking said:

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so he needed to contradict the ADs office, the school president and the police, at the time. not now, but at the time? got it.

hindsight is a wonderful and terrible thing all at the same time. it allows us to both learn from our mistakes but exposes our faults all at the same time.

---

So if others do the wrong thing it's okay for him to hide behind them? I've listed the publicly available evidence (what 'hindsight?' - that was known to him when he could have acted). In light of the publicly broadcast evidence, it doesn't matter if the corrupt police, the DA, the school, the State legislature, and the governor declare it's 'Jameis Winston' day and throw a parade. Facts are facts, and Jimbo turned a blind eye to rape to win a game.

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so if jimbo is hired by texas a&m and i cheer on the team after they win a game he coached in, what will that say about me in your eyes?

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Given the fact that you're one of his apologists, it tells me you're not nearly as concerned with rape as the win-loss record and will make up excuses for scum like him. You and others like you will insist you're 'pro Jimbo and anti-rape,' but actions speak louder than words, and you're willing to let an abomination slide and disgrace your school to MAYBE win what amounts to a silly, meaningless game in the grand scheme of things.

I'll root against A&M football, participate in letter writing campaigns & protests and curse the disgrace my alma mater has become until he and anyone else responsible are fired. A woman's life is more important than a sport. I thought - of all schools in the nation - A&M would be the last to pay mere lip service to that idea. Even if he's not hired at this point, I have to say I'm disturbed and disgusted at the priority others here place on 'winning' a game above all else (not to mention the fact that it's not an either-or situation - he's not our only choice).

Thompson said:

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technoviking said:

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Thompson said:

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technoviking said:

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so he needed to contradict the ADs office, the school president and the police, at the time. not now, but at the time? got it.

hindsight is a wonderful and terrible thing all at the same time. it allows us to both learn from our mistakes but exposes our faults all at the same time.

---

So if others do the wrong thing it's okay for him to hide behind them? I've listed the publicly available evidence (what 'hindsight?' - that was known to him when he could have acted). In light of the publicly broadcast evidence, it doesn't matter if the corrupt police, the DA, the school, the State legislature, and the governor declare it's 'Jameis Winston' day and throw a parade. Facts are facts, and Jimbo turned a blind eye to rape to win a game.

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so if jimbo is hired by texas a&m and i cheer on the team after they win a game he coached in, what will that say about me in your eyes?

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Given the fact that you're one of his apologists, it tells me you're not nearly as concerned with rape as the win-loss record and will make up excuses for scum like him. You and others like you will insist you're 'pro Jimbo and anti-rape,' but actions speak louder than words, and you're willing to let an abomination slide and disgrace your school to MAYBE win what amounts to a silly, meaningless game in the grand scheme of things.

I'll root against A&M football, participate in letter writing campaigns & protests and curse the disgrace my alma mater has become until he and anyone else responsible are fired. A woman's life is more important than a sport. I thought - of all schools in the nation - A&M would be the last to pay mere lip service to that idea. Even if he's not hired at this point, I have to say I'm disturbed and disgusted at the priority others here place on 'winning' a game above all else (not to mention the fact that it's not an either-or situation - he's not our only choice).

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was i really apologizing for him? or just countering some of your points? and to say that i wouldn't be concerned about rape is pretty hilarious, seeing as how you know nothing about me.

Thompson said:

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Your 'he was too busy coaching' argument is incredibly weak. I seem to recall other coaches 'having time' to discipline or remove players.

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Usually cops call the coach, say "I got your boy driving drunk with a .1 BAC," and that's all the coach has to consider before making a decision. This case had mountains of evidence to analyze: testimony of multiple people on multiple dates, rape kit results, video (existent and deleted), police investigation reports, and probably a lot of other **** I'm forgetting. A coach in the middle of a championship season doesn't have the free time to go through all of that.

None of us know (or will ever know) how much Fisher read and deeply contemplated, but we do know that he has no legal training and probably very limited knowledge of criminal law. So if all the people whose job it is to read and analyze this evidence (cops, prosecutors, investigative staff at FSU which included a former state supreme court justice) say the evidence isn't there, even using low evidentiary standards, it's a stretch to definitively conclude that Fisher is a total POS for failing to ignore all of them and kick Jameis off the team anyway.

I'd have some serious misgivings about hiring him simply because he was on the periphery of that disgusting sham of an investigation and we don't know enough to say that he was innocent of incredibly unethical behavior. But this idea that he was part of a cover-up or condones rape or whatever is completely unsubstantiated at this point.

He's paid millions of dollars to think - granted, about football, but He's not a moron. Even if he didn't have legal resources, I'm sure he knows what is required to kick someone off his team - and he knew the facts which were published nationwide. He can't claim ignorance or helplessness as to the facts or his ability to act - he just chose not to.

Quote:

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it's a stretch to definitively conclude that Fisher is a total POS for failing to ignore all of them and kick Jameis off the team anyway.

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Indeed.

And as I've tried to say earlier, its unclear that Jimbo Fisher could have successfully kicked Jameis off the team, anyways, given the process required by FSU athletic department and university policy.

Thompson, are you going to address the content of FSU's athletic and student codes of conduct and the result of Winston's conduct hearing in front of the independent arbiter?

I'm not claiming Fisher is a moron who knew nothing about the case. I'm sure he knew quite a bit. That said, you have a rather low opinion of your profession if you think that a legal neophyte can step into a complicated assault case and easily reach a defensible verdict. A sound decision here would have had to consider inconsistencies in testimony, the piles of evidence, implications of the deleted video (just a guy freaking out or somebody trying to destroy evidence of a crime?), and a ton more. Plus, even if Fisher somehow reached a good conclusion, when should he have kicked Jamies off? If he thought there was a 30% chance that Jameis did it? 50%? 70%? Even 70% certainty would have meant that Fisher was destroying a kid's college career when there was a nearly a 1 in 3 chance that he was innocent. The ability to handle complications and difficult decisions are why prosecutors go to law school and then spend a couple years working minor misdemeanors before they start handling cases of this magnitude. They are far from simple.

I get what you're saying and share a lot of your concerns (I'm uncomfortable that he was even on the periphery of this), but I don't think it's nearly as straightforward as you're making it out to be. I mean for crying out loud a retired Florida Supreme Court Justice reviewed everything and finally concluded that he didn't find one side more compelling than the other. It's a big step for Jimbo to step in and say he knows better than a guy who spent his entire life doing this exact thing.

aggiehawg said:

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MaxPower said:

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Does anyone have an article linking his exact role in the alleged rape? I know the cops looked the other way but I haven't seen anything that indicates they did so at his request. Is it not possible the police there simply give the local players preferential treatment regardless of who the coach is?

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The game plan was set under Bowden with the Tallahassee PD long ago. Also being the state capitol there's no shortage of politically connected people who get the heads up and can fix things. Could be Fishers' fingerprints weren't even needed.

That's not exonerating him nor is it indicting him.

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Yeah, all the players are protected and hooked up in Tallahassee. Even the crab legs was a hook up, they just forgot to tell the night manager.

Think about what Devaney and Osbourne tolerated at Nebraska.

Not saying that Jimbo is a saint, but at Baylor from Briles to Starr they were covering up big time...

If our best player (let's say Kirk) was ACCUSED if rape, but CSPD, the university, and the District Attorney never persue any course of legal action or discipline, are you suggesting Kirk be removed from the team based on the accusation?

Let's take it outside the realm of football, since whether someone condones rape has nothing to do with football. If a person is accused of rape, but after an investigation, the police department and the DA don't feel there is substantial evidence to persue a case, should that person be thrown in jail anyway? Should that person lose their job? If not, would the company they work for be condoning rape?

TXAggie2011 said:

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Quote:

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it's a stretch to definitively conclude that Fisher is a total POS for failing to ignore all of them and kick Jameis off the team anyway.

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Indeed.

And as I've tried to say earlier, its unclear that Jimbo Fisher could have successfully kicked Jameis off the team, anyways, given the process required by FSU athletic department and university policy.

Thompson, are you going to address the content of FSU's athletic and student codes of conduct and the result of Winston's conduct hearing in front of the independent arbiter?

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Fisher would have been sued for damages re: NFL career if James had been kicked off while the legal system (rigged) was going through its process.

Still, I can see the argument that if yelling idiotic things in a student union drew a one game suspension, then a much more serious matter should be dealt with.

biobioprof said:

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Ridge14 said:

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Do people really not believe that Jimbo is an upgrade over Sumlin?

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Setting aside the ethics stuff, and my fear that we are being used by his agent, my concern is that we might get a version of Jimbo who is more damaged than his overall WL record. I admit that there is a "wouldn't want to join any club who would have people like me as a member" component to my thinking, but if not having an experienced QB ready when Starkel went down is a knock on Sumlin's QB development, why isn't that an issue for Fisher?

Then there's always the question of how a nasty divorce and teenage sons with your ex might affect performance. That probably wouldn't be a question if the breakup of his marriage didn't immediately precede his worst season and his altercation with a fan.

It probably also would be less of a concern for me if this season didn't have a bunch of cases of P5 coaches acting like the stress was breaking them: Jones, McElwain, and Gary Andersen being the most visible.

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Right - that's why the agent leaked the potential interest. Hopefully, Woodward and BOR/BMAs have other big names contacts that go beyond a HC with a 3 game losing streak in the DFW area...

Besides the divorce I think Hurricane Irma impacted a lot of players' families and impacted the seasons of FSU, Florida, and led to Miami's sluggish start. Richt found a way to rally his homies to put things together on the field. It was a blow to the state psyche, even though many areas outside the keys and south of Ft. Myers escaped without devastation...still areas of Miami and the east coast received major flooding... and there were power outages throughout the state.

Cappy407 said:

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If our best player (let's say Kirk) was ACCUSED if rape, but CSPD, the university, and the District Attorney never persue any course of legal action or discipline, are you suggesting Kirk be removed from the team?

Let's take it outside the realm of football, since whether someone condones rape has nothing to do with football. If a person is accused of rape, but after an investigation, the police department and the DA don't feel there is substantial evidence to persue a case, should that person be thrown in jail anyway? Should that person lose their job? Otherwise, would the company the work for be condoning rape?

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The university can still go ahead and issue punishment under whatever due process standards they've developed...I don't think they have to rely on the justice system...although I agree that should hold some weight...

But the fact of matter is Winston eventually went through a university disciplinary hearing and under FSU's code of conduct policies, and FSU's required burden of proof, there wasn't enough evidence to punish him.



Perhaps there should have been enough evidence---maybe if the police and the proper university authorities did their jobs halfway appropriately---Winston would be behind bars right now.

But that's not the fault of the independent arbiter or whoever else was in a position to issue punishment but not in a position to perform an investigation.

jml2621 said:

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TXAggie2011 said:

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Quote:

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it's a stretch to definitively conclude that Fisher is a total POS for failing to ignore all of them and kick Jameis off the team anyway.

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Indeed.

And as I've tried to say earlier, its unclear that Jimbo Fisher could have successfully kicked Jameis off the team, anyways, given the process required by FSU athletic department and university policy.

Thompson, are you going to address the content of FSU's athletic and student codes of conduct and the result of Winston's conduct hearing in front of the independent arbiter?

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Fisher would have been sued for damages re: NFL career if James had been kicked off while the legal system (rigged) was going through its process.

Still, I can see the argument that if yelling idiotic things in a student union drew a one game suspension, then a much more serious matter should be dealt with.

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They had the needed evidence to suspend him for the incident in the student union. Just like they had the needed evidence to extend that suspension for Winston's lying about it.

There have been multiple reviews and inquiries about whether the evidence as it stands was enough to punish Winston for the rape...and they all come to nearly identical conclusions...the evidence as it stands doesn't meet the respective standings.

Again, maybe that evidence would be there if the investigations were done halfway decently.

TXAggie2011 said:

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Cappy407 said:

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If our best player (let's say Kirk) was ACCUSED if rape, but CSPD, the university, and the District Attorney never persue any course of legal action or discipline, are you suggesting Kirk be removed from the team?

Let's take it outside the realm of football, since whether someone condones rape has nothing to do with football. If a person is accused of rape, but after an investigation, the police department and the DA don't feel there is substantial evidence to persue a case, should that person be thrown in jail anyway? Should that person lose their job? Otherwise, would the company the work for be condoning rape?

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The university can still go ahead and issue punishment under whatever due process standards they've developed...I don't think they have to rely on the justice system...although I agree that should hold some weight...

But the fact of matter is Winston eventually went through a university disciplinary hearing and under FSU's code of conduct policies, and FSU's required burden of proof, there wasn't enough evidence to punish him.



Perhaps there should have been enough evidence---maybe if the police and the proper university authorities did their jobs halfway appropriately---Winston would be behind bars right now.

But that's not the fault of the independent arbiter or whoever else was in a position to issue punishment but not in a position to perform an investigation.

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I agree. But to say someone condones rape because they aren't in a position to perform their own investigation and subsequently issue punishment is absurd - which seems to be the leap many are trying to make.

Yes, see the last paragraph. Poor investigation isn't the fault of those not in a position to investigate.

If we hired Fisher, get ready for sanctions to follow at some point.

The hiding if the alleged rape was one thing and you can argue that case from both sides. The bigger story IMO is the measly crab legs.

As said, this was a "hook up" received by Winston and other players. I'm sure more than crab legs were getting handed out but Publix and other local businesses. Once Fisher is gone, expect some stuff to surface and a investigation get launched at some point in the next year or two. His natty will be vacated, Winston will lose the Heisman and Fishers sanctions will be imposed here.

Example: see USC, Pete Carrol and Reggie Bush.

aggiedent said:

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If you throw out this year, he has an .800 win percentage at FSU, 3 conference championships, 1 national championship, and 5 bowl wins in 7 years. He has got multiple QB's in the NFL. His teams play defense. Throw in the fact he comes from the Sabam coaching tree. That's what gets peoples attention.

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If you throw out the last 3 years of sumlin, he has an 800 record also.

Hindering the "investigation" by the Tampa PD, and failing to report the allegation to the title IX office as he was required, in the first 30 days is a big reason why they were unable to prove a case, both criminally or through the university.

This didn't happen during the season. This was January, before Jameis had taken a snap. The cops knew Jameis already because of the vandalism issues in December.

Has Fisher ever backed down from unequivocal support of Winston and how it was handled? Has he ever expressed any compassion for the women that Winston assaulted?

In a day when women are finally speaking out against the men who assaulted them and the systems that protected them, is this the man TAMU wants to hire?

Let's just hire the ****ing devil while we are at it...

Instead of a dbag with no integrity

jml2621 said:

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aggiehawg said:

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MaxPower said:

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Does anyone have an article linking his exact role in the alleged rape? I know the cops looked the other way but I haven't seen anything that indicates they did so at his request. Is it not possible the police there simply give the local players preferential treatment regardless of who the coach is?

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The game plan was set under Bowden with the Tallahassee PD long ago. Also being the state capitol there's no shortage of politically connected people who get the heads up and can fix things. Could be Fishers' fingerprints weren't even needed.

That's not exonerating him nor is it indicting him.

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Yeah, all the players are protected and hooked up in Tallahassee. Even the crab legs was a hook up, they just forgot to tell the night manager.

Think about what Devaney and Osbourne tolerated at Nebraska.

Not saying that Jimbo is a saint, but at Baylor from Briles to Starr they were covering up big time...

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Remember when Saban gave a second chance to a player with domestic violence issue in his past? Yes, there was some tut-tutting by Finebaum and his ilk. The guy got in trouble again and Saban cut him loose. The hub-bub died in a day.

The Briles situation went much further than one incident with a star player. The entire university had a culture of blaming the women for being "loose." One that applied to women regardless of whether their attacker was a student-athlete or not. They didn't have a functioning Title IX office, for pete's sake. The university police, Waco PD, DA's office and local media were all complicit as well.

Not saying the situation was completely different in Tallahassee but was there really that much concerted activity to cover multiple incidents with multiple students and athletes? I'm not seeing the evidence that it went that far.

Bunk Moreland said:

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We had a football player that was exposing himself to female tutors that our current staff was trying to 1) keep quiet from the public and 2) keep the player enrolled and on the team until it became public... At which point they had to do a full reversal.

Just FYI for all the folks who suddenly have become holier than thou

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that's what I'm talking about. Sharp & Young will step in and handle the discipline.

and they have to make that clear to Fisher before hiring him. Any player involved in sexual assault / domestic assault wrongdoing will likely be dismissed...even for what may have been considered a minor offense at FSU

W said:

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Bunk Moreland said:

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We had a football player that was exposing himself to female tutors that our current staff was trying to 1) keep quiet from the public and 2) keep the player enrolled and on the team until it became public... At which point they had to do a full reversal.

Just FYI for all the folks who suddenly have become holier than thou

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that's what I'm talking about. Sharp & Young will step in and handle the discipline.

and they have to make that clear to Fisher before hiring him. Any player involved in sexual assault / domestic assault wrongdoing will likely be dismissed...even for what may have been considered a minor offense at FSU

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It's not that FSU considers sexual assault a minor offense, they just don't dismiss players that haven't been charged with anything...like all other programs including us

HoustonAg2106 said:

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bmks270 said:

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Fisher doesn't care what happens off the field. Only FSU fans like him.

Winston's behavior at FSU:
-rape(no charges)[boosters paid and corrupt PD]
-property damage (no charges)[boosters paid and corrupt PD]
-shoplifting (suspended by baseball coach)[not Jimbo?]
-shouting obscenities demeaning women (suspended by Jimbo Fisher)[theres a pattern here]

Crimi-Noles.

Aided by a corrupt PD and boosters.

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Fixed some things for you for accuracy

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Fixed again. When you read the details of these events that some reporters have dig up, it's plainly obvious Jimbo and the whole town don't hold players accountable for criminole behavior.

That's okay, keep letting our daughters and other students and the community be victimized by thugs because, meh, football.

UGH, staff is probably going to delete my post but we are not hiring Jimbo!!!!!!