Saying "the police investigated" is a huge stretch. And the reason the university didn't investigate was because Fisher and Bonasorte didn't report it. And spare me the "he reported it up the chain" nonsense. He was the head football coach, just like Paterno was at PSU.

Her timing for everything bothered me, and made me question her side of the story.
The encounter happened in late 2012, she didn't single Jamies out until late 2013 when he was a Heisman contender. She also filed a civil suit against him two weeks before the draft...

CrazyDayDuck said:

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"But coach, what do rape mean?"

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LOL

We just want to win.

That's absolutely incorrect. She went immediately to the police and underwent a rape kit. In early January, she learned his name when she saw him in one of her classes. She went to the police with that information immediately. That's when the cops called the athletic department

A&M quit caring about dignity and moved to a commercialized business with a BOR that only cares about one thing. #Shame

Might as well get Briles if Jimbo is being mentioned

Clarke95 said:

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Saying "the police investigated" is a huge stretch. And the reason the university didn't investigate was because Fisher and Bonasorte didn't report it. And spare me the "he reported it up the chain" nonsense. He was the head football coach, just like Paterno was at PSU.

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By "the police investigated", I mean that Tallahasee PD, state police, and Title IX investigators. If that's not good enough for you I don't know what to tell you. Do I thing Winston raped her? Maybe. Did the police or Title IX investigators believe he raped her? Maybe. And maybe didn't have sufficient evidence to charge, indict, and convict. Did Jimbo believe he raped her? Maybe so, maybe no. But what would you have Jimbo do without so much as Winston being charged with third degree assault? Would you want your employer to kick you off the team under the same circumstances? Anyone that would answer 'yes' to this question is an idiot. Are you an idiot? I don't know?

And, don't believe, I ever said anything about "reporting it up the chain". I didn't because there's no report that he did, as far as I know (or as far as you know for that matter). Because he didn't have to. The report was made to the police. So it trickled down, not up.

It's obvious you have no idea what you're talking about, have no care for the facts, and are just bloviating your moral supereriority for your own self gratification.

who?mikejones said:

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I just dont accept that the head coach at a major university doesn't know what's up.

Some evening reading:

https://www.foxsports.com/college-football/story/jameis-winston-florida-state-tallahassee-police-hindered-investigation-documents-101014

Clay travis' take in above: https://www.outkickthecoverage.com/florida-state-s-conspiracy-of-jameis-winston-silence-has-a-lot-in-common-with-penn-state-101514/

https://www.thenation.com/article/reality-their-own-jameis-winston-rape-and-seminole-fandom-florida-state/

https://sports.vice.com/en_us/article/wn33gm/the-jameis-winston-rape-lawsuit-has-some-damaging-new-information

https://www.si.com/college-football/2014/10/13/florida-state-jimbo-fisher-jameis-winston-investigation

https://www.foxsports.com/college-football/story/florida-state-official-says-20-rape-allegations-against-football-players-in-9-years-112515?amp=true

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The Nation article mentions the fact that at the disciplinary 'hearing,' Winston and his two friends refused to answer almost all questions.

The Dean of students had earler said they weren't even going to have any hearing regarding the two accusations against Winston before the outcry forced the school to conduct a 'hearing.' The victim answered all 156 questions, and a victim's advocate who spoke with her shortly after the assault testified she exhibited post-traumatic stress symptoms consistent with other rape victims. Winston READ a prepared statement, topically responded to 3 questions, and refused to answer all others. His friends also refused to answer all questions. He and his friends faced no probing cross-examination.

Some of you keep talking about 'conflicting accounts' between Winston and his victim, and use that 'conflict' to throw up your hands and act like 'there's no way we can solve it now' (pretty much what that sham of an FSU hearing did). What do you think most rape trials look like? That's the point of most trials (rapists say 'no, it was consensual, etc.') -
to determine who is telling the truth. If the rapist admits the victim's version is correct, there isn't a trial on guilt-innocence.

He said-she said cases are common. That's where other evidence (e.g. extraneous offenses) comes in handy. If some of you were in charge, we'd practically never have rape trials. All the rapist would have to do is say 'no, it was consensual,' and you'd say 'well, we'll never know now.' How often do you think there's actually VIDEO EVIDENCE of the rape? If only there was video evidence in Winston's case... wait, there was, and his buddy deleted it. I've also seen a case where WAS video of the rape, and even then the defendant claimed it was 'role playing.' I get the sense some of you might again 'throw up your hands' in such a situation - if it helped you get what you thought was the 'solution' at head coach. There was other evidence that should have been taken to a jury (even after and despite the botched investigation), but the DA was inept, weak, cowardly or corrupt (or some combination).

Thompson said:

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The girl did everything you could ask for of a rape victim: she quickly reported it and had a rape kit performed, there was DNA, some bruising and blood, and he wasn't a 'star' player at that point. Also, the other DNA was apparently from her boyfriend who was OUT OF TOWN that night (that some of you are so eager to jump on Winston's attorney's talking points is sad). Winston had another accuser, Winston 'declined to be interviewed,' his friend deleted video evidence (reasonable inference is it was bad for Winston), the first 'statements' from them on the matter appear to be the friends' affidavits (likely drafted by Winston's lawyer who consulted with police, who did everything they could to slow down the investigation - see the links below) and one of the friends made a Facebook post indicating consciousness of guilt shortly after the night in question. That's more than enough to take it to a jury, they just chose not to in that cesspool.

Beyond a reasonable doubt is greater than clear & convincing evidence, which is greater than a preponderance (more likely than not). That's how OJ could be sued (and lose) a wrongful death suit after being 'acquitted' by a jury (by the way, Winston and FSU have both settled civil suits with the victim). Jimbo had far more than enough to KICK HIM OFF THE TEAM. The fact that no one else in that cesspool did the right thing didn't make it ok for him to turn a blind eye to it so he could win a game.
....

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2014/04/16/sports/errors-in-inquiry-on-rape-allegations-against-fsu-jameis-winston.html

http://www.slate.com/blogs/xx_factor/2016/01/25/florida_state_pays_landmark_title_ix_settlement_over_alleged_jameis_winston.html

[friend deleted video]
https://broadly.vice.com/en_us/article/bmwev5/jameis-winston-quarterback-accused-of-rape

[public defender who's faced prosecutions based on less evidence]
https://deadspin.com/why-i-believe-jameis-winstons-accuser-1479782169

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Jimbo had the ability to kick any player off his team (regardless of what the cops, the DA, FSU and anyone else did). Given the foregoing (which could have supported a conviction if they'd taken it to a jury), Winston 'more likely than not' raped her, and he absolutely should have been kicked off the team. And no, you don't need law school training to see that; anyone here can understand it, though many - like Baylor fans - refuse to see it because it's convenient to pretend 'we'll never be able to figure it out' and just stick their heads in the sand instead.

And fire Woodward if he's seriously considering Jimbo, along with everyone else who was in a position to stop this and did nothing. No passing the buck here; a lot of heads should roll if something this disgusting and myopically stupid disgraces Texas A&M.

merch said:

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UGH, staff is probably going to delete my post but we are not hiring Jimbo!!!!!!

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Why would staff delete a completely baseless rumor that is in response to a slightly more probable rumor?

Quote:

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Jimbo had the ability to kick any player off his team (regardless of what the cops, the DA, FSU and anyone else did).

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I've told you this already, but regardless of the evidence and the evidentiary standard, a FSU head coach cannot unilaterally dismiss a player.




As far as the evidence and the standards of proof, we have had several different parties come in after the fact and either say it wasn't really prosecutable in a court of law and, more than that, did not even meet the standard required to kick a student out of FSU.

(That doesn't mean I think Winston didn't rape that girl, that Winston didn't act ****ty in not answering questions, or that the evidence and standards could have been met had a proper investigation taken place in a timely matter.)

Quote:

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Some of you keep talking about 'conflicting accounts' between Winston and his victim, and use that 'conflict' to throw up your hands and act like 'there's no way we can solve it now' (pretty much what that sham of an FSU hearing did). What do you think most rape trials look like? That's the point of most trials (rapists say 'no, it was consensual, etc.') -
to determine who is telling the truth. If the rapist admits the victim's version is correct, there isn't a trial on guilt-innocence.

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The problem about conflicting accounts is not between the accounts of the accusing victim and Winston.

Rather, it stems from conflicts in the accusing victim's own accounts. And it stems from conflicts among accounts from different witnesses. And it stems from conflicts between the witnesses and the accusing victim.

There were going to be concerns about the prosecution proving its own theory of the case, before we get to any theories suggested by the defense.

TXAggie2011 said:

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I've told you this already, but regardless of the evidence and the evidentiary standard, a FSU head coach cannot unilaterally dismiss a player.

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Really? Dismissing a player from your team is not the same as kicking him out of the school. Cite your source for this conclusion. Sumlin (and most other head coaches) can and have kicked players off the team at will, for a variety of reasons. My source says you don't have a clue what you're talking about:

Slate said:

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An athletic scholarship is not a four-year educational guarantee. What few college sports fansand not enough college recruitsrealize is that a university can yank that scholarship after one, two, or three years WITHOUT CAUSE. COACH DOESN'T LIKE YOU? HE'S FREE TO CUT YOU LOOSE. Sitting the bench? You could lose your free ride to a new recruit.

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http://www.slate.com/articles/sports/sports_nut/2012/05/ncaa_scholarship_rules_it_s_morally_indefensible_that_athletic_scholarships_can_be_yanked_after_one_year_for_any_reason_.html

(EMPHASIS ADDED)

TXAggie2011 said:

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As far as the evidence and the standards of proof, we have had several different parties come in after the fact and either say it wasn't really prosecutable in a court of law and, more than that, did not even meet the standard required to kick a student out of FSU.

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Parties? You mean the worthless DA who had more than enough to try the case? I've seen cases won with much less - see also the article I posted from the public defender who's faced prosecutions based on less.

You mean when FSU tried to illegally avoid any investigation at all in violation of Title IX? Or when FSU then conducted a sham hearing (including all the aforementioned facts) to just say 'shucks, we just can't tell - play ball!' You're not actually countering all the facts - you're just hiding behind the self-serving conclusions of others who ignore the facts. Just because the police intentionally botched the investigation - just because the case could have been even stronger - does NOT mean there wasn't enough with all I've listed above.

Here are a few good excerpts from who?mikejones's link (https://www.outkickthecoverage.com/florida-state-s-conspiracy-of-jameis-winston-silence-has-a-lot-in-common-with-penn-state-101514/)

Outkick the Coverage said:

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Florida State's administration has engaged in a pattern of conspiracy to ensure that Jameis Winston continues to play football for the Seminoles. When you really examine everything surrounding the Winston case, it's hard not to draw the conclusion that this is the most serious college football scandal since Penn State....

This isn't lack of institutional control, it's something even scarier: total institutional control. That's why FSU has operated with such flagrant disregard for truth, justice, and athletic accountability. So let's actually cut through all the crap and make a cogent case for a Florida State conspiracy.

Let's start with last week's report from FOX Sports that maps out how the details of the Tallahassee police investigation into Winston's alleged rape were passed along to FSU police and then to the school's athletic department, and how those details also fell into the hands of Winston's attorney before investigators actually forwarded the report to the state attorney's office.

HOLY HELL.

This is potentially a criminal act on behalf of Florida State athletic department officials and the Tallahassee police. It hasn't gotten enough attention because most people are too dumb to understand why this is such a big deal. So let me break it down for you....

Okay, so what's the benefit of sending that report to Winston's attorney, you might be asking? It's simple Jameis Winston and his attorney then had the opportunity to craft a legal defense while knowing exactly what the other side had said before anyone from the Tallahassee police ever got around to actually asking them any questions. To put this into simplistic sports terms, this is the legal equivalent of knowing what plays your opponent would run before they ran them....

What's crystal clear is that from the moment this allegation was made, members of the FSU athletic department made a conscious decision to protect its star player. Whether Jimbo Fisher himself made this decision or if he's just an idiot head coach incapable of comprehending the seriousness of his program's conspiracy is unclear, but what's readily apparent to anyone not wearing garnet and gold is that FSU was aided in their conspiracy by the incompetent rape investigation of the Tallahassee Police Department.

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TXAggie2011 said:

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The problem about conflicting accounts is not between the accounts of the accusing victim and Winston.

Rather, it stems from conflicts in the accusing victim's own accounts. And it stems from conflicts among accounts from different witnesses. And it stems from conflicts between the witnesses and the accusing victim.

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1. What conflicts in the victim's statements? Cite your source - and it better not be some weak drivel from Winston's defense attorney. I think I once heard someone say 'the victim said her rapist was 5'10", but Winston is 6'2" - Aha!' That's not really an inconsistency. I'm 6'4", and I can't tell the difference between someone who's 6'8" and 7" - it's guestimating. Also, he at least admitted to what he claimed was a consensual encounter, so identity wasn't at issue.

2. You mean conflicts between the victim who answered ALL 156 questions and the 'witness' friends who destroyed video evidence, posted statements on facebook shortly after the rape that indicated they were feeling guilty, and refused to answer ANY questions at the hearing for fear they might open themselves up to criminal charges? Those witnesses?

Thompson said:

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1. What conflicts in the victim's statements? Cite your source - and it better not be some weak drivel from Winston's defense attorney. I think I once heard someone say 'the victim said her rapist was 5'10", but Winston is 6'2" - Aha!' That's not really an inconsistency. I'm 6'4", and I can't tell the difference between someone who's 6'8" and 7" - it's guestimating. Also, he at least admitted to what he claimed was a consensual encounter, so identity wasn't at issue.

2. You mean conflicts between the victim who answered ALL 156 questions and the 'witness' friends who destroyed video evidence, posted statements on facebook shortly after the rape that indicated they were feeling guilty, and refused to answer ANY questions at the hearing for fear they might open themselves up to criminal charges? Those witnesses?

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excellent humble brag!

Quote:

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Really? Dismissing a player from your team is not the same as kicking him out of the school. Cite your source for this conclusion. Sumlin (and most other head coaches) can and have kicked players off the team at will, for a variety of reasons. My source says you don't have a clue what you're talking about:

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I've cited my source before and asked you to address this before but you pulled a Winston. It's their department policy, you can see the student affairs section to see it in written form.

Fisher and Sumlin and other coaches have kicked players off their teams. I don't know A&M's policies, I doubt for disciplinary reasons Sumlin unilaterally can snap his fingers and the book is written, end of story. But that's not FSU so it doesn't matter.

Quote:

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Parties? You mean the worthless DA who had more than enough to try the case? I've seen cases won with much less - see also the article I posted from the public defender who's faced prosecutions based on less.

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I definitely don't mean the DA or Bonsorte or Jimbo. Why would you think I'd mean them?

That's good for you. I'm not sure what all the ridiculous **** that was pulled by police departments has to do with what I was saying. And I equally don't excuse Jameis for not answering questions---see above---but that's also a separate issue. I excuse very little here except. Hell, I think Jimbo never should have said "there was no crime." Better way to go about that.

p.s. As someone who has represented battered women in both civil court and immigration contexts; no need giving a Clay Travis story for those "too dumb to understand" that's lacks anything substantive

No, I don't think those aren't the conflicts I'm thinking of. Conflicts about whether they knew each other, the timelines, etc. were an issue, among other things.

With better investigation maybe those are resolved and Winston is behind bars. That the arbiter couldn't meet a lower standard isn't encouraging.

The cops botched the investigation at the time of the rape, in dec 2012 and Jan 2013 when she identified her assailant. They didn't track down the cabbie. They didn't get tapes from Potbelly's. They called Winston to ask him for an interview instead of showing up and talking to him live. They tipped off the AD who hired Winston a lawyer.

FSU did not initiate a title IX investigation when they learned of the assault as they were required to because Fisher and Bonasorte didn't report it.

When the story leaked in the fall of 2013, THEN the university was forced to investigate. That's when Casher and Darby wrote identical statements and refused to testify, that's when Winston read a statement. It was almost a year later. It's no shock they couldn't prove a case then.

There are plenty of well reported links in this thread. You can choose to believe he did all he could and all he was required to do by law. I do not.

I don't think anyone here has debated that the investigation was incompetent, that FSU officials helped Winston obtain an attorney, that FSU officials had "early" access to the files, or that FSU didn't initiate a proper Title IX investigation in a timely manner. That shouldn't be conflated with the separate matter of whether the way Fisher reported the incident is unforgivable or not.

TXAggie2011 said:

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Quote:

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Really? Dismissing a player from your team is not the same as kicking him out of the school. Cite your source for this conclusion. Sumlin (and most other head coaches) can and have kicked players off the team at will, for a variety of reasons. My source says you don't have a clue what you're talking about:

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I've cited my source before and asked you to address this before but you pulled a Winston. It's their department policy, you can see the student affairs section to see it in written form.

Fisher and Sumlin and other coaches have kicked players off their teams. I don't know A&M's policies, I doubt for disciplinary reasons Sumlin unilaterally can snap his fingers and the book is written, end of story. But that's not FSU so it doesn't matter.

Quote:

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Parties? You mean the worthless DA who had more than enough to try the case? I've seen cases won with much less - see also the article I posted from the public defender who's faced prosecutions based on less.

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I definitely don't mean the DA or Bonsorte or Jimbo. Why would you think I'd mean them?

That's good for you. I'm not sure what all the ridiculous **** that was pulled by police departments has to do with what I was saying. And I equally don't excuse Jameis for not answering questions---see above---but that's also a separate issue. I excuse very little here except. Hell, I think Jimbo never should have said "there was no crime." Better way to go about that.

p.s. As someone who has represented battered women in both civil court and immigration contexts; no need giving a Clay Travis story for those "too dumb to understand" that's lacks anything substantive

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Got caught up with Thanksgiving, family, etc.

TXAggie2011 said:

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I've told you this already, but regardless of the evidence and the evidentiary standard, a FSU head coach cannot unilaterally dismiss a player.

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Aside from my link above which says you're wrong, the policy I think you're referring to (I'm guessing since you're careful not to post links yourself) would not have prevented Jimbo from kicking him off the team:

http://seminoles.com/athletics-department/ (click on 'athletic policy and procedure manual' and go to page 23).

"As the university's most visible ambassadors, student-athletes at Florida State are expected to uphold, at all times, high standards of integrity and behavior .... respect the rights of others .... Failure to do so may result in suspension from the team or even the university. Scholarship athletes risk having all or part of their financial aid revoked for infraction of this code. The HEAD COACH OF EACH SPORT HAS HIS/HER OWN SET OF TEAM TRAINING/CONDUCT RULES. THE FLORIDA STATE ATHLETICS ADMINISTRATION WILL FULLY SUPPORT APPROPRIATE DISCIPLINARY ACTION TAKEN BY A COACH. Should a student-athlete wish to appeal any disciplinary action, he/she should contact their Sport Oversight." (Caps emphasis added). It later provides for practically mandatory suspensions upon convictions for felonies (of course, that doesn't stand for the converse proposition - that no conviction in criminal court 'beyond a reasonably doubt' means you can't be kicked off the team). Elsewhere it says the purpose of the policy is "not to judge who is guilty or not guilty." I think I also saw a reference to the preponderance standard somewhere in there, but in any event it seems clear the coach can kick him off for violating the Coach's "own set of team training/conduct rules."

You mentioned the 'appeals process' before you edited your post. If your point is 'Jimbo could have kicked him off the team, but then Winston might have appealed' - so what?! The fact that there MAY be a way for a player to appeal (the policy is vague on that) doesn't mean Jimbo therefore shouldn't have even tried to kick him off the team. That's nonsensical. Kick him off the team (based on the mountains of evidence Jimbo and the rest of the nation knew about) and let him appeal if he can. At least then Jimbo would have lifted a finger against a rapist - one who didn't want to see this same case in civil court (preponderance standard) based on the SAME foregoing evidence I mentioned, and chose to settle with the victim instead.

You don't address all the evidence - you just make vague references to and rely entirely on other 'parties' (again, no links) who you say thought the evidence wasn't sufficient. I'm still trying to guess who you're referring to (link?). First, if you're referring to the arbiter, he was brought in by demonstrably foot-dragging FSU, reviewed all the facts (supra) and then threw up his hands and said 'we'll never know.' Based on the evidence produced and the victim answering every question vs. the evidence DESTROYED by / refusal to answer practically all questions (for fear of criminal charges) by the other side, that conclusion was ridiculous. That whole thing was a sham. Second, if we're talking about what various 'parties' thought of the evidence: again, both FSU - and more importantly, Winston - wouldn't dare take the case to a real trial on the SAME evidence and face the SAME preponderance standard. Winston instead chose to settle with someone he claimed 'falsely' accused him of rape - because he knew in a real court he'd lose.

TXAggie2011 said:

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I'm not sure what all the ridiculous **** that was pulled by police departments has to do with what I was saying.

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TXAggie2011 said:

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That doesn't mean I think Winston didn't rape that girl ... or that the evidence and standards could have been met had a proper investigation taken place in a timely matter.

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Basically, you're saying the standards 'could have' been met if the police had conducted a better investigation. You're again trying to excuse Jimbo's inaction by saying 'if only they'd conducted a better investigation, maybe Jimbo could have done something.' That's why I said "Just because the police intentionally botched the investigation - just because the case could have been even stronger - does NOT mean there wasn't enough with all I've listed above." Even with the obstruction of the police, there was still enough evidence. See above; see also the fact that Winston wouldn't dare face that same evidence in a real court and chose to settle.

TXAggie2011 said:

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No, I don't think those aren't the conflicts [in the victim's statements] I'm thinking of. Conflicts about whether they knew each other, the timelines, etc. were an issue, among other things.

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POST A LINK to all this, and whatever 'etc.' you're referring to. I (and several others) have posted several links to publicly available known evidence. I'm not just taking your word for it that there WERE 'conflicts' or that the supposed 'conflicts' were MATERIAL / important at all (e.g. 'she said she met him at 5:30, but it was actually 5:40. Aha!').

TXAggie2011 said:

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I don't think anyone here has debated that the investigation was incompetent, that FSU officials helped Winston obtain an attorney, that FSU officials had "early" access to the files, or that FSU didn't initiate a proper Title IX investigation in a timely manner. That shouldn't be conflated with the separate matter of whether the way Fisher reported the incident is unforgivable or not.

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That's not the only issue with Fisher; it's his not lifting a finger to kick an obvious rapist off the team as coaches can generally and FSU coaches can in particular, based on links others and I have included. Address the evidence and include links. You've done neither, opting instead to rely on vague 'others' and their questionable conclusions. See also supra (public defender says she's faced prosecutions based on less evidence in criminal court (BRD standard), Winston wouldn't dare take the case to trial in a real court based on the SAME evidence (preponderance standard) and settled with the victim).

Fisher is trash.

Johnny Manziel broke the law multiple times and never got kicked off the team.... I know rape is a bigger crime than underage drinking but there were many reports of Johnny showing up drunk before the game and partaking in illegal drugs. Its apples to oranges but still fruit.

Showstopper said:

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To be fair, crab legs are pretty delicious.

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And expensive for a college student!

Many on this site sit back and condemn Fisher for the Jamies incident yet throw their moral compass out the window when it comes to our own school. When our star players commit crimes we say they are just being kids and continue pontificating that we all have done these things.

To be fair.....

We all have stolen something in our lives...
Most of us have had drunken sex, that could be turned into rape....
We have all drank underage.....
We have all lied for someone else....
We have all yelled profanities in public......

What makes us holier than these people???

$75MM changes a lot of things, right?

So did we ever decide if wanted Fisher or not?

AGGies0311 said:

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"Most of us have had drunken sex, that could be turned into rape...."

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To Thompson's credit, he hasn't posted since his last post in this thread.

Fun bump. I don't care if Jimbo is an ass hole or a kitty cat. As long as he wins.

Amazing how many people blue started the OP.

Troll you ass of non Aggie