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I think 2012 was a real eye opener to many as to how well our players were and most credited that to sherman. But I take it a step further and realized how bad a game day coach he was to have that good a roster and still do next to nothing with it. And then I look at sumlin with all that ammo and have him miss the mark the next few years. Wow, I'm in a glass case of emotion.

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There's differences though. Johnny was arguably a much better college QB and more athletic than Tannehill, and he needed a red shirt year in 2011 to get there. Even he admitted he wasn't a good enough passer and too careless with the football until he got with George Whitfield. Damontre Moore was a different and more mature player in 2012 compared to 2011. He took the same leap that Von Miller did between his sophomore and junior seasons. Mike Evans was picking up the finer points of the game during his red shirt year in 2011 after being more of a basketball (not baseball) player in HS. As bad a game manager as Sherman seemed, I don't think we would have been that bad in 2012 under him. Mostly what he was missing in 2011, and what kept us from winning, was a good rush end. It was the same problem we had in 2013 after Damontre left.

Honestly, I think we might have had another 2010 year or better in 2012, and we still would have won most of the games we did. All of the nonconference (including La Tech, I don't think the defense would have been down 4 guys on the 2 deep), Arky (Smile!), MSU (overrated), Ole Miss (decent team we played poorly against), Auburn (so bad Chizik was fired), and Mizzou (ravaged by injuries). The toss ups would have been Florida, LSU, and Alabama, and I think we would have had a good chance in those, especially against Florida and LSU. Looking back, it's no surprise that we won 10 games in the 2012 regular season. The only shocker was the Alabama win.

What should really make you wonder is how he would have done with the 2012 and 2013 recruiting classes. Attrition there has killed us, and I wonder what Mike Sherman would have done differently to develop those players.

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His 3rd and 4th year teams would beat the s*** out of Sumlins 3rd and 4th year teams.

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Von would have made Kyle Allen and Germain Ifedi his *****.

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Seriously, call run-run-run-punt every possession in the 2nd half and we probably win that game.

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Could have done that with 2 other 2011 games as well.

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Yes, we went 6-6 in 2011 [Key point left out: -------->>] IN THE BDF!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

But that team was close.

I'm not suggesting that Sherman would have us in the top 10 now. But he did a fine job of rebuilding a devastated roster. And his years 3 and 4 are better than Sumlins. Revisionist history not required.

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"Close"...so "CLOSE" is the measure??? Of "doin good work"...

Hooooo leeeee zhit!!!!!!!!!!!!

This is what drives me frikking nuts about Aggies. Read all of those "great man" measures bestoweth on Sherman......IN THE BDF!!!!!!!! And that was doing great work!!!!

No D for 4 years... lost leads and LOSSES...and all of that, now, seems

OK...

Because....he was "close"!!!

BUTT.....[Move goalpost quickly]


We move to the hardest conf and hardest landscape on the College Football planet. And supposed SANE people EXPECT that a THIN BDF laden THREE STAR, essentially completely BARE D Cupboard...which could not hold up in Momma's BDF...

Could SUSTAIN itself AND [toss out close, quickly]

WIN AGAINST THE TOP OF THE SEC inside of FOUR YEARS.

For most, the applicable follow up here would be 'step away from the crack pipe'. I disagree. Lock your lips on that things and inhale til you pass out!!

Maybe on the other side, there will be some realistic cognition about the path from Momma's BDF, to the world of week in and week out REAL D1 Football in the SEC.

BDF:Close=OK

SEC:CLOSER=/=NOT OK.

Got it.

Wow.

Hey man, you realize we played 5 teams that finished in the top 15 in 2011 right? If ole miss wins their bowl game, that will make 2 for this year.

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His 3rd and 4th year teams would beat the s*** out of Sumlins 3rd and 4th year teams.

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using final rankings below, not where they were ranked when the game was played as I believe final rankings are more accurate than in season rankings

2010
Best wins
top 10 OU by 14
top 20 Neb by 3

Losses ranked from best to worst
top 10 @OK St by 3
top 15 Arky (Neutral) by 7
top 10 LSU (neutral) by 17
top 20 Mizzou by 21


2011
Best wins
top 20 Baylor by 27

Losses ranked from best to worst
top 5 OK St by 1
top 10 Arky (neutral) by 4
top 20 @ KSU 4 overtimes
borderline 25 Mizzou in overtime
borderline 25 tu by 2
top 15 @OU by 16


2014
Best wins
top 25 @ Auburn by 3

Losses ranked from best to worst
top 15 Mizzou by 7
borderline 25 LSU by 7
top 15 @ Miss St by 17
top 20 Ole Miss by 15
top 5 @ Bama by 59


2015
Best wins
Borderline 25 Miss St by 13
Borderline 25 Arky (Neutral) in overtime

Losses ranked from best to worst
top 5 Bama by 18
top 15 @ Ole Miss by 20
top 25 @ LSU by 12
6-6 Auburn that is only bowl eligible because they beat us at home by 16


Looking at the results I think 10 was a little better than 14 and 11 was a little better than 15. That Auburn loss this year hurts a lot.

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Great points on player development. We've seen little to none of it on offense under Sumlin.

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JJay has some hard on revisionist hate going on for Sumlin which skews his narrative and he rants about it. He conveniently misses the complete wiff on defenses, which was literally NEVER addressed in 4 years under Sherman. Yeah, he could get a lead in a game, and had NO concept of closing out a game...because in the NFL, you get a lead and what? play defense!! Which he never fielded...in 4 years.

Predictable? Wow. That's funny. Sherman was a scripted coach unlike KK...but when you revise history it's important to leave out the warts.

JJay, also conveniently overlooks the changes in player eval from '12 to 15.

Sherman's left an empty roster on D...so what? Well, there is a small difference between the BDF (which he couldn't play D in) and the SEC...Hows that A&M SEC D looking now...after the cupboard was EMPTY for three years AFTER Sherman.

He also absolutely never give Sumlin credit for landing Chief...who happened to be available for Sherman as well...he just wasn't the staff builder on that side of the ball...

And it showed up on the field with those collapses and missed opportunity in '11.

Good stuff!!

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Revisionist history? Where were you in 2010? That was a pretty good defense that repeatedly stopped Oklahoma at the goal line and held a top ten Nebraska to 6 points. They allowed <21 ppg. The 2012 defense he left Snyder allowed <23 ppg. Except for 2011, after he lost an All American pass rusher as the #2 pick in the draft, his defenses improved every year. I think he would have had the same or better results than Snyder in 2012 after Damontre Moore took the same leap that Von Miller did between his sophomore and junior seasons.

The only reason our defensive cupboard has been bare is the attrition to our 2012 and 2013 recruiting classes, and that is on Sumlin, not Sherman.

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His 3rd and 4th year teams would beat the s*** out of Sumlins 3rd and 4th year teams.

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using final rankings below, not where they were ranked when the game was played as I believe final rankings are more accurate than in season rankings

2010
Best wins
top 10 OU by 14
top 20 Neb by 3

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When we played them, OU was #11/9 in the polls, Nebraska was #9 in both

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Great points on player development. We've seen little to none of it on offense under Sumlin.

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what player development did you see under Sherman? only player development you saw was when someone else was their coach

Time for tits again...

I'll add that I'm not so sure, even with the falling out Chavis and lsu had, that Sumlin could have lured him here with the $400k salary Deruyter made under Sherman. I bet Sherman could have done better if he was given a blank check.

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Hey man, you realize we played 5 teams that finished in the top 15 in 2011 right? If ole miss wins their bowl game, that will make 2 for this year.

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There is nothing about all these retrospective comparisons which are anything but justifying a point of view in the present. People do it when they are pizz'd off about 'what happened'. But most importantly, whether we beat Bama in '12 or lost to Aub in '15, the offense, TODAY, is broken.

That is really all that matters because we are not going back and play more top 5 teams in '11 or '13...but we WILL play four or five next year. So, the only thing that matters TODAY is fix the offense.

Look at the components of winning football teams in D1.

#1 Recruiting; the roster is improving every year. Folks who want to dive off in to 'well he didn't eval well in '13'. That is not nearly as important as the CHANGE in eval; that is what a great HC does.

#2 Defense: Lord, finally, after nearly a decade in a half, we have BADAZZ D in the making, but the reason? Because Sumlin HIRED the best DC in the modern era SEC football. Maybe in the SEC history.

#3 Offense: It's broken. While it was projected to be the strong suit by EVERYONE last August, the full measure is NOW available, it's broken. The roster is there (see #1) the scheme is not. Offense is a hellova lot easier to fix than D. He has to fix this. (by the way, Aggies were treated to a decade of terrible O and great D by their all time winningest coach, so this is not new, the difference is - that was the BDF and this is the SEC).

#4 ST's: Our special teams are great. Period. Did the jack it up vs l$u? yeah they did...even His Harbaughness has screwed up special teams games...and that is his forte. It happens. Our ST's are still great.

So..."Close"?

From my POV, we are damn close...and a hellova LOT CLOSER than when we moved to the SEC in '12.

I guess it was ok a&m lost because they played better teams.

Sherman's best season at a&m was 9-4 ...

so you're saying 6-6 is better than 8-4?

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WIN AGAINST THE TOP OF THE SEC inside of FOUR YEARS.

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Sumlin's SEC record:

Arkansas 4-0
Vanderbilt 2-0
South Carolina 2-0
MSU 3-1
Auburn 2-2
Ole Miss 2-2
Missouri 1-2
Alabama 1-3
Florida 0-1
LSU 0-4

Exactly who, at the top of the SEC, has he beaten? Alabama? In 2012?



You want to talk about second half collapses? Take a look at the last two years.

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Sumlin's SEC record:

Arkansas 4-0
Vanderbilt 2-0
South Carolina 2-0
MSU 3-1
Auburn 2-2
Ole Miss 2-2
Missouri 1-2
Alabama 1-3
Florida 0-1
LSU 0-4

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Honestly, I expected this to be worse entering 2012.

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Great points on player development. We've seen little to none of it on offense under Sumlin.

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what player development did you see under Sherman? only player development you saw was when someone else was their coach

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Von Miller? Damontre Moore? Our entire O-line? Mike Sherman produced 2 #2 draft picks and left Sumlin an O-line that are all playing on Sundays now. I can't imagine anyone other than Myles going that high anytime soon, and he came out of HS practically NFL ready.

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Great points on player development. We've seen little to none of it on offense under Sumlin.

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what player development did you see under Sherman? only player development you saw was when someone else was their coach

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Von Miller? Damontre Moore? Our entire O-line? Mike Sherman produced 2 #2 draft picks and left Sumlin an O-line that are all playing on Sundays now. I can't imagine anyone other than Myles going that high anytime soon, and he came out of HS practically NFL ready.

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Sherman went 6-6 with that O-line, Damontre Moore, and a Top 10 pick at QB

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You want to talk about second half collapses? Take a look at the last two years.

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Your expectation for the year was 8-4 or 9-3 this year.

That is made up of 3 or 4 losses to Bama, the Miss, LSU and AzST.

The team met your expectations for the year.

But you are pizz'd at how it happened. No problem, are the blowouts better or worse than MS's inability to close out games with big leads...No. The "Ls" are "L's" big leads or not, collapses are not.

The more important picture (IMO) is where is the team today; the #1-4 listed above. All of the losses, don't change that. And...

The offense was broken.

It's really that simple.

That is where the team sits Dec 2, 2015.

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I guess it was ok a&m lost because they played better teams.

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I'm not sure how you came to that conclusion.

I think the point being made is that we played a much tougher schedule in 2011, and were in control in 11 of those games. Ending up with 6 losses was unacceptable, and Sherman's firing is justified because of that.

That doesn't change the fact that in 5 of those losses, we had extremely high probabilities of winning in the 2nd half. This season, outside of being up 7-6 for a few minutes in the 3rd, we haven't had a lead or even been tied in the 2nd half of our losses.

So to make this nice and simple:
Roster Sumlin inherited > Roster Sherman inherited
Results based upon the competition in 2011 > Results based upon the competition in 2015
dissapointment in 2011 = disappointment in 2015

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Sumlin's SEC record:

Arkansas 4-0
Vanderbilt 2-0
South Carolina 2-0
MSU 3-1
Auburn 2-2
Ole Miss 2-2
Missouri 1-2
Alabama 1-3
Florida 0-1
LSU 0-4

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Honestly, I expected this to be worse entering 2012.

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Well, consider the strength of our SEC schedule in 2012. Auburn went 3-9. Arky had John L. smith at the helm and went 4-8. Missouri went 5-7. Ole Miss went 7-6. MSU went 8-5. 3 out of the 8 conference teams we played weren't even bowl eligible at the end of the year, and a fourth went 6-6 in the regular season. None of those 4 won all of their OOC games. MSU could be considered middle of the pack at 8-4 and winning their regular season OOC games. The only truly good teams we faced in conference were Alabama, Florida, and LSU, and we lost 2 of those.

Competition in 2013 wasn't much better, except Auburn got incredibly lucky all year and Missouri didn't suffer so many injuries. We've been a middle of the pack team the last 4 years, our record just hasn't reflected it because a lot of West teams had a down 2012.

To answer your question on Mike Evans.

He only played football his senior year of high school. That's why he was redshirted. That redshirt year didn't waste his eligibility and let him understand the game more.

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You want to talk about second half collapses? Take a look at the last two years.

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Your expectation for the year was 8-4 or 9-3 this year.

That is made up of 3 or 4 losses to Bama, the Miss, LSU and AzST.

The team met your expectations for the year.

But you are pizz'd at how it happened. No problem, are the blowouts better or worse than MS's inability to close out games with big leads...No. The "Ls" are "L's" big leads or not, collapses are not.

The more important picture (IMO) is where is the team today; the #1-4 listed above. All of the losses, don't change that. And...

The offense was broken.

It's really that simple.

That is where the team sits Dec 2, 2015.

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I expected much better this year. 9-3 should have been our floor. I called AzST as a pretender just like SC last year. The only games that should have been toss ups were Bama, LSU, and Ole Miss, and we weren't even competitive. The Ole Miss game especially was a total embarrassment. Auburn started as a toss up, but after week 2 should have been a win. To me, this season is a disappointment.

Last year was a pretty big collapse too. 59-0 ring a bell? How about that Missouri game where we were up at the half and then proceeded to allow a 28 point 3rd quarter? That season was a disappointment.

And how about 2013? Finishing out by losing to Missouri and LSU? Considering who all we returned, that was a disappointment.


Our offensive performance all year has been ****ing pathetic. This has been our worst offense in 8 years. Our worst since Sherman's first. this is Sumlin's 4th year, and he has arguably more talent on offense than Sherman did in 2008. He's also been responsible for development the last 4 years. Where the team is today is worse off than when Sumlin took the helm in 2012.

A sophomore Damontre Moore and a Top 10 pick at QB because Mike Sherman picked him in the draft. Damontre made a big leap in 2012 the same way Von made a big leap in 2009. That 6-6 team was a couple of dropped passes and blown calls (helmet to helmet against tu?) from being 9-3 or 10-2.

Sherman was 8-10 in games decided by one score or less in his 4 years.

and that "8" includes wins over New Mexico, Army, Utah State, and FIU.

He was a terrible in-game strategy coach

Haha, the power of social media--the more likes/upvotes/stars a post gets the more inclined we are to upvote it ourselves

or maybe 194 of y'all are really just responding to the frustration of the Sumlin era

either way, Sherman sucked as a coach and there are plenty of posts, of lesser stars, providing evidence for that.

The 2011 collapse is just a fascinating subject.

oSu: were up 20-3 at half
arky: were up 35-17 at half
mizz: were up 28-17 at half
kst: were up 10 with 6 minutes left, dips*** passed the ball like a mofo
uta: were up 16-7 at half

Another fun fact about those games. We scored 7 points COMBINED in the 3rd quarter.

A dropped pass here and there is not the concern that season. The fact the above scenario happened 5 times is.

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WIN AGAINST THE TOP OF THE SEC inside of FOUR YEARS.

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Sumlin's SEC record:

Arkansas 4-0
Vanderbilt 2-0
South Carolina 2-0
MSU 3-1
Auburn 2-2
Ole Miss 2-2
Missouri 1-2
Alabama 1-3
Florida 0-1
LSU 0-4

Exactly who, at the top of the SEC, has he beaten? Alabama? In 2012?



You want to talk about second half collapses? Take a look at the last two years.

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Second half of the season is not the same as second half of the year especially when our star QB got his should f***ed up this year. Forgetting how to coach in the second half of ALMOST EVERY GAME IN 2011 is unforgivable. Facing better teams and starting a QB that wasn't even close to ready against Auburn when our real QB was out is forgivable. Now if we keep Spav as OC then THAT could be the most unforgivable thing of all.

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You don't like Mike Sherman for 2011? At least he was competitive. His problem was he trusted his defense too much and needed a better pass rusher. Compare that to Kevin Sumlin who made all of the same mistakes this year that he made last year.
Wait until the end of the year to fix an obviously underperforming coordinator? Check.
Keep your QB in a game you're getting blown out in when he can't complete a decent pass to save his life? Check.
Give up multiple scores on offense and lose the game by that many points or fewer? Check.
Lose to a middle of the pack team because of ball security issues and lack of offensive production? Check. Get shutout because you can't make offensive adjustments and get the ball passed the 50? Check Thank God Myles made an amazing pick in field goal range


Even with KA's ****ed up shoulder, that doesn't excuse Ole Miss or Auburn or LSU. This team started out shaky but serviceable and finished looking like complete crap. It took another huge blowout and near shutout to force a QB change, and even then, it didn't happen until it was way, way too late to make a difference.

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I expected much better this year. 9-3 should have been our floor.

Last year was a pretty big collapse too. 59-0 ring a bell? How about that Missouri game where we were up at the half and then proceeded to allow a 28 point 3rd quarter? That season was a disappointment.

And how about 2013? Finishing out by losing to Missouri and LSU? Considering who all we returned, that was a disappointment.


Our offensive performance all year has been ****ing pathetic.

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Hey, one thing I definitely get: you are angry and disappointed. I get it.

It won't matter how many times you recontextualize the various losses and connect the dots, the wins and losses will be the same.

People discount success with 'shoulda/coulda/woulda' in a manner which they construct to fit their narrative. It happens all the time. How so? Mizzou was a terribly disappointing game, but you shat your'sef elation with the SoCar and Aub wins, IN THE MOMENT. But today? now? You write...meehh...they weren't that special. BS. JJay does the same thing, so do lots of others here and on other boards. It's BS and TOTALLY wrong, but it makes people 'feel' better about the 'feeling bad'.

Notice how you didn't address what is relevant TODAY, those four items I listed. It's because those items, which do matter about D1 football, are the truth, but acknowledging them doesn't change the lingering butthurt over '59-0' or no points v Ole Miss. I get it.

The offense was not the concern before the season, by ANYONE!!! Including your self, but life didn't work out they way lots of folks expected. That IS life.

The offense is broken - today.

Sumlin has to fix it.

I'll take today, KNOWING our D is going to be rocking next year, and questions about the O. That's just me.

Others, they'll ***** and moan about what "should have been' this year and they will do it by mystical fantasizing about 'well if the D this year was matched with the O from 6 years ago and the schedule from '09, then....".

It makes people feel better, but it's not real.

Those four items I listed...those are real.

You can have the last word.

bum Showers? Easy. He was a pretty damn good QB too. We were fortunate to have him behind JFF. He went to UTEP so he could run Mike Price's offense. Unfortunately, he retired and they brought in a ground and pound offense before he was eligible. He still was a good QB despite that. The Ags would have had a similar record if he would have started in 2012.