My favorite part of this thread:

double bubble (after including excerpts from the people who investigated what went on and know more about it than the vast majority of the people at the University): "Note the continued negative reference to the culture that existed around the bonfire and University. This culture is still present and is evident in the way that some react (read attack) when information not fitting the cultural norm is introduced."

This is IMMEDIATELY followed by...

AmarilloBQ02: "Somebody please ban this guy."

Unbelievable. We Aggies are a family and Aggies watch out for other Aggies... until you hold a view that doesn't jive with the crowd. Then you're "garbage" or you should "go to tu, where you belong". I have two seven year olds and a four month old and I hope they all want to go to the University I love, to a place that gives me a feeling like no other even now, 15 years after I graduated. And I hope the mindset that anyone who doesn't agree with "us" is trash is nowhere to be found by then. It's f'n shameful for a place that aspires to be a world class university.

Exactly Honky Kong. I wasn't trying to say the article was wrong or right, I was merely trying to point out that many of the same problematic attitudes those involved with Bonfire once had are STILL prevalent. IE this thread.

I also would like to think Bonfire would change with the University, but the real problem is that the people involved with Bonfire don't seem to change. They just break whatever rules the University sets for them. Because THEY are REDASS. And everyone else can go to hell.

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We Aggies are a family and Aggies watch out for other Aggies... until you hold a view that doesn't jive with the crowd.

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If Aggies watch out for each other, then they certainly don't write articles flaming an old tradition and other Aggies who still believe in it.

I see your point, though I don't think the author was "flaming" anything. I think he was writing an article about something he thought was wrong with the place. Perhaps any criticism is "flaming". I don't know. But what is someone supposed to do when they see something they don't agree with in a culture where dissenting viewpoints are shouted down and ultimately end up in personal attacks?

What bothers me isn't that people disagree with what he wrote. It's the personal attacks that result that I think are ridiculous. It's all too common these days.

[This message has been edited by honky kong (edited 9/11/2009 1:19p).]

This is irresponsible editorializing and an attack on tamu

By definition team building of any kind excludes those not on the team

All teams reflect the culture of the members and good teambuilding helps mold attitudes towards more socially productive standards

Bonfire was the best teambuilding excercise in the united states and accomplished all those things

It was a very positive experience for a huge majority of participants

Those participants came from every walk of life

Todays bonfire teams would be more multicultural than ever but would reinforce core aggie beliefs such as personal integrity, work ethic, teamwork, intelligent risk management without risk aversion, and pragmatic competence in everyone from every background

The us has allowed multiculturalism to be an excuse to erode those values and the lack of bonfire erodes them further at tamu

A student run bonfire can be held at what I and most aggies consider an acceptable level of risk

Unfortunately jurors and government officials that control financial repurcussions don't share these core values and that is essential reason for the decline of the us relative to the world and the decline of tamu

Obviously, I wouldn't want to go to the bonfire thing, so I would stay home.

That is why I don't understand the attacks on the bonfire thing. Anyone could go or not go, if they wanted to or didn't want to. Don't like the bonfire party? and you think it is racist? or sexist? then don't go.

But why should you get to stop everyone else from going? Or try to make it into a cum-by-ah moment?

Sounds like a good tradition. You should bring it back (with reasonable precautions and what not).

shoot me now a raider making sense

the raider makes a lot more sense than a lot of you people

Was there racism and sexism at Bonfire? Unfortunately, yes.

However, it was diminishing year by year. I could see the difference just in my time, comparing my first year to last.

There were a larger number of minority crew chiefs (probably over-represented relative to the student body makeup).

Women were doing quite a bit more as well, and the gals that worked hard had the utmost respect of the guys doing the same.

Bonfire was anachronistic in a lot of ways, but the culture was changing - slowly, but surely.

i think the author is a little guy, a self loathing reprobate that had an idea of how he could make a name for himself by denigrating something, you see it all the time. this is a cheap shot that he knew would stir up tremendous anger. i mean the article has no real points. racism exists to this day most everywhere, so he tags bonfire... whatever.

what hurts is the way he slammed the old ags, the "all-male, all-white military past". the assumption is that their example is shameful and is somthing to be looked down upon.

you know these are the guys that won WWII and built the school into what it is today. for this i would love to punch this guy in the mouth, he deserves it, any of you guys know him... smack him for me. his name is Michael Landauer

I'm clearly an outsider here, and if anything is "family business" for Aggies, it's Bonfire. If you're open to a little input from Austin (well, Colorado now), though, here it is:

First, I can't believe it has been 10 years since the collapse. I had a few friends out there that night, one who barely escaped with his own life and then held someone while he died (as far as I understand the story - there are just some things you don't ask about). I don't know that I'll ever forget that night in Jester, how worried everyone in Austin was for their friends up in College Station. What a sad, sad night...

A tragic incident doesn't necessarily need to mark the end of a tradition, however. It surely marked the end of an era, though, as evidenced by the past ten years.

It seems the question now in front of you and your community is which way is the best way forward. There are those, like the writer, who would prefer to see Bonfire relegated to the history books, mentioned as a relic of a past that no longer exists at A&M.

There are others who want things to go back to the way they were. Neither path seems optimal.

While Bonfire opponents may never be satisfied until the pile is permanently extinguished, Bonfire purists want nothing less than the same Bonfire they experienced during their time at A&M.

Where is the middle ground? Is there any?

It seems that a lack of supervision and a gap in student skillsets drove many of the problems around Bonfire. It also seems that many of you and your friends are passionate A&M alumni who would like to see Bonfire return to campus.

Is there no way (and perhaps this has already happened with the off-campus Bonfire) to build an alumni coalition so well-organized and well-resourced as to bring back Bonfire and make it stronger and safer? With the brilliant engineering and construction minds graduating from A&M on a yearly basis, it seems that there ought to be some way to engage some of those folks in ensuring a safe and supervised Bonfire each year.

You all essentially have the entire set of resources and brainpower of the construction and engineering world at your disposal. Will the campus not allow an effort supported by students yet strictly managed by industry professionals to become the "official" Bonfire yet again?

Granted, there are those who probably long for the days of unsupervised cuts. That ship seems to have sailed, however, based on the Commission's report and the administration's decisions.

Whatever the outcome, I'd love for you all to be able to retain some vestige of the tradition that has brought all of you so much joy over the years...

...as long as it doesn't actually work and help you beat Texas.

Best of luck with this difficult situation.

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I see your point, though I don't think the author was "flaming" anything.

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There' nothing that can be done for you to increase your own awareness. If you can't see it, something is wrong with your "awareness apparatus."

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I think he was writing an article about something he thought was wrong with the place. Perhaps any criticism is "flaming".

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You see, if he balanced his criticism at all, it would have been recieved differently. But he fired off the cheap-shot-alarm-buzz-words. They make him seem less than honest, bent on appeasing those who would rush to pat him on the back, and we all know who these Jesse-Jackson-alarmists are.

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But what is someone supposed to do when they see something they don't agree with in a culture where dissenting viewpoints are shouted down and ultimately end up in personal attacks?

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Try to communicate so as to not invite the attack? It's not rocket science. You give the guy wayyyyy too much credit.

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What bothers me isn't that people disagree with what he wrote. It's the personal attacks that result that I think are ridiculous. It's all too common these days.

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I agree and we can all be guilty. But he's not exactly dealing with an emotionless topic here. People will get riled. Emotions show up. Plus, I'm willing to bet his editors as well as the author himself rubbed their grubby little hands together in eager anticipation of the anger they would incite.

"That'll sell some papers!"





You are assuming he's noble in spite of the article.

I'm deducing he's not because of it.

classy, quality post ColoradoLonghorn

cbramey, BigAg, and Floyd 2012:

I stand with you guys. Well done, well said!

I agree with most of the article. I worked on it two years and I knew a ton of kids who dropped out of school all together because of being too "red ass"...

For the people who agree with this article, I just must say Bonfire must have changed considerably from the 1980s unto the 1990s.

Safety was big time in the 1980s. It was no joke then. And Bonfire was the event of the fall semester. It brought fans from all over the state. Including a lot of UT girls. It was like College Station transformed into Austin in size.

The only divisive issue I ever heard of in my 5 years there in the 1980s was people who didn't like burning trees and thought we should build housing for the homeless instead. That's it.

Maybe things changed considerably in the 1990s. If they did, they changed for the worse.

Has DMN ever written a pro-A&M piece?

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(for demasaido) It wasn't Bonfire that killed their academic career.

[This message has been edited by Dr. Mephisto (edited 9/11/2009 2:31p).]

Nevermind. Not worth it.

[This message has been edited by honky kong (edited 9/11/2009 3:04p).]

Somebody please ban this guy...

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Maybe things changed considerably in the 1990s. If they did, they changed for the worse.

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Many many things about society in general have changed considerably in the last 20 years, and a great sum of them changed for the worse.

IMO, Bonfire is a great cautionary example for project managers.

It demonstrates how quickly an age-old process can be corrupted by a few individuals. I was never there in the 80s, but from all accounts I've seen and heard, things were MUCH different then. It seems as though sometime around when Bonfire was moved to the Polo fields, things changed. Why? Don't know. But safety started to slip. Planning started to slip. Important aspects of the project started to be made "historical" and passed down instead of being documented.

It's also indicative of the fact that in any project, you MUST have checks and they must be treated with the utmost respect instead of afterthoughts and hassles.

From these perspectives, there was certainly a breakdown in the planning, management, and oversight of the project. However, it doesn't mean the project should be abandoned.

If any university prides itself on anything, it should be learning. So learn from this. Use this great tradition and, yes, the tragedy, as a learning event. Most students will never have an opportunity like the one Bonfire presents. You have all aspects of a REAL construction project. Planning, staging, HR, safety, and everything else you can imagine. So get the university involved and let everyone contribute. Have the College of Education design some safety training (we had to sit through something when I was there before we could set foot on any site). Have the Kine folks study some aspect of the project. Obviously, Engineering could play a huge role in it.

Now that would require a change in the thinking. It couldn't be "this is only stuff a certain level of person can know about and it's a secret so I can't tell anyone." But it's just a shame to allow such a wonderful opportunity for thousands of students to fall by the wayside because of attitudes from decades ago or presumptions made by people that were twice-removed from someone who was involved 20 years ago.

As I stated, the culture has not changed. The resistance to any information that doesn't back the status quo is loud and drowns out common sense.

There are real victims to a close-minded culture, so paranoid of outside information, that they shout down and ridicule said information and those who attempt to make a difference. The result is disaster.

http://texags.com/main/forum.reply.asp?topic_id=9458&forum_id=14

Tim Kerlee is one of of those victims. Look at that picture...crushed and twisted legs...and ask yourself if there is any tradition worth the risk that something like could happen. That's someone's son lying there, mortally injured, due to a cultural defect that wouldn't allow anyone to be heard that could have prevented his and the other deaths. That's a huge chunk of a family's life being torn away from them because of some culturally immature notion that "tradition" for tradition sake has value. Only those posturing, for the benefit of their ego, would answer that question with, "yes, it is worth it".

The President of the University at the time put together a group to study brining the process back to Texas A&M campus as a school sponsored activity and, in the end, decided against doing so. He was reviled and ridiculed. Bob Gates, a hero to some on here, didn't bring it back onto campus either.

Here's a lie some on here want to believe...stupid and mindless tradition = political conservatism.

I'm as conservative politically and socially as anyone you'll find and anyone claiming my point of view is liberal is lying to themselves.

If what makes Texas A&M communitiy "special" is mindless tradition that puts members of the community at risk of death and serious bodily injury, then it isn't as special as many want to believe. If Texas A&M is to be special, it is the people that make up Texas A&M that have to be special...not some out of control annually repeated activity. If you need tradition to be special...you ain't.







[This message has been edited by double bubble (edited 9/11/2009 7:34p).]

double bubble = liberal

Kramer makes good points. Bonfire used to be AN event during the fall semester, not THE event. Back in ancient times you had to be at least a sophomore to even go thru the 'try out' process to get on the stack. When I heard about some freshmen dying because they were up on the stack in the middle of the night on weekday a week and a half before Bonfire night I knew finally that the morphing process that Bonfire had undergone for about 20 years had reached its nadir. Virtual complete loss of institutional memory and, combined with the relocation to an old creek bed site with poor soil conditions - the '94 collapse during the day was a clear signal that this site was dangerous, a catastrophe in waiting. Bonfire used to be built under strict discipline with hard work in about a week. Not a month long frat/grab(_,_) party. THAT type of Bonfire will never return nor should it. Adults who pay bills will not subsidize that type of risk again.

Start over with a trash pile like it was up until 1948. Do that correctly and move up over time. Having a private company design/build it is a joke and completely misses the point of what Bonfire USED to be. It got far away from its roots and killed kids. No one can condone that. Never again. No design engineer and/or construction company with any sense would touch this project with all the litigation STILL underway 10 years after the fact and with no end in sight.

Racism and Sexism did not kill thost 12 Aggies and seriously hurt dozens of others. Stupidity did.

[This message has been edited by WBBQ74 (edited 9/11/2009 8:29p).]

the fact that you can't admit ANYTHING positive about bonfire makes you no different than the guys you are flaming.

we aren't saying bonfire was perfect.

we realize racism, sexism, and any other -ism probably occurred at bonfire. what you do expect when you have teams of college students doing blue-collar work??? it wasn't okay, and the university shouldn't tolerate it.

bonfire was unsafe and dangerous. we get that. off-campus cut has many many changes and modifications to correct many safety issues, and it is much more welcoming and PG. I was part of both "on-campus" cut my freshman year, and off-campus cut.

but the fact is, i never felt more welcomed, included, and part of something than when i was part of bonfire my freshman year. i toughened me up to the real world. i had upper-classmen who valued teamwork, friendship, hospitality, and safety as the most important thing. they weren't perfect, and they didn't pretend to be, but we didn't drink, we included women and were very considerate, and we rooted on Mosher when they were cutting a huge tree.

the world isn't PC, and ending or discontinuing bonfire isn't going create world peace. if anything, it will do more harm than good. at least bonfire brought our differences to light, and allowed people to talk about it and fight it out.

you want reality? go to ANY job where there is a majority of men or women. i dare you go to into any blue-collar manufacturing job on the houston area. it's redneck, racist, and sexist. you have die-hard democrats, and bible-thumping conservatives. and i mean it's racist on any account, but it isn't hateful racism. we're all together, but we are all real with who we are.

that's life. that was bonfire. it wasn't perfect, but at least it was real, it stood for something, and things got done. and we had something that NO other university had.

instead of burying it, can you give me any good justification why bonfire can't be resurrected stronger, safer, and more inviting?

and cut it with the "culture" crap. A&M has changed for the better, and we are more diverse. instead of downing bonfire, why not build on all the good aspects of bonfire while creating this utopian culture you speak of?

NASAag,

The culture of NASA created the conditions that led to the Shuttle disasters. Did the culture change in NASA.

No one has claimed that the bonfire process was totally corrupt...and, in fact, the irresponsible behavior surrounding the bonfire process...hazing, harrassment, alcohol abuse, crude public behavior, etc. were found not to be direct causes of the collapse. The were, however, a symptom of the behavioral barrier failure exacerbated by a cultural defect. This barrier failure was a contributing factor to the collapse and the 12 deaths and many injuries.

If a person reads this thread and they cannot see evidence of exactly the culture that was identified as a contributing factor to the collapse, then they are part of the problem. The way that "bonfire" is defended...after the process resulted in the negligent death of 12 people and the serious injury to almost twice that many...is prima facia evidence of the cultural defect.

Texas A&M is bigger than the bonfire process...or at least it should be in the educated mind.



[This message has been edited by double bubble (edited 9/11/2009 8:38p).]

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If a person reads this thread and they cannot see evidence of exactly the culture that was identified as a contributing factor to the collapse, then they are part of the problem. The way that "bonfire" is defended...after the process resulted in the negligent death of 12 people and the serious injury to almost twice that many...is prima facia evidence of the cultural defect.

Texas A&M is bigger than the bonfire process...or at least it should be in the educated mind.

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Amen.

If there is ever a group of defeatists, it is the bizarrely rigid group of adherents that can't admit that the spirit of Aggieland is larger than a single event. Move on and adapt!!! The Spirit of Aggieland is larger than pile of burning wood, not vice-versa.

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The President of the University at the time put together a group to study brining the process back to Texas A&M campus as a school sponsored activity and, in the end, decided against doing so.

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That decision had little to do with the practical obstacles of implementing a safe, practical Bonfire, and everything to do with pending litigation.

[This message has been edited by Keegan99 (edited 9/11/2009 9:00p).]

i guess a&m is doomed to become like every other state school with no character and no tradition. It is people like you "double" who are ruining our school for our kids and grand kids

Our school is not being ruined for our kids and grandkids. It's a great institution and getting better every year. One thing Robert Gates tasked us in doing was to admit our failures and learn and grow from them. Stand up for what we believe in, but be willing to admit when we're wrong. Bonfire was one of our failures, like it or not. Were there positives? Sure. But, nothing double bubble has said is a lie or even a distortion of the truth. Suppressing the truth and denying the failures of what led us to 11/18/99, is no way to improve it for the next generation. Admitting those failures and being willing to make the corrections is the only thing that will ever lead to growth and positive change.

There are many people on here condemning both the article and double bubble for only pointing out the negatives. But is that any more wrong than the vast number of posters clinging to only the positives?

Racism is the new McCarthyism.

Like McCarthyism, no proof is needed. It's up to the accused to prove they're not racist. Go Tawana Brawley on 'em and they'll cave. Hell, Duke dismantled their entire Lacrosse program
and ruined the lives of innocent men on the word of a drunken, psycho stripper.

The pendulum has swung so far to the left the scale should've fallen over by now.

I still fail to make the connection between the bhavior of past Bonfire particiants and the current student body. The article basically argues that Bonfire is bad because of poor past judgment and change can never be introduced.

Exactly how does that reconcile within an educated mind.

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Racism is the new McCarthyism.

Like McCarthyism, no proof is needed. It's up to the accused to prove they're not racist. Go Tawana Brawley on 'em and they'll cave. Hell, Duke dismantled their entire Lacrosse program
and ruined the lives of innocent men on the word of a drunken, psycho stripper.

The pendulum has swung so far to the left the scale should've fallen over by now.

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Try to be a bit more analytical here. The Duke episode ended up in shame for the Duke faculty.

To compare a racial a charge n 2009, which can be rightly trivialzed these days (see the Cambridge, MA incident recently) to McCarthyism, where people's lives were ruined, shows you are out of touch. To call it the "New McCarythism" is crazy. Do you think the whole white guilt, racial tension thing is anything other than hundreds of years old? Open your history book friend. This is not a new topic.

Double bubble:
Cultural defects are at the heart of every failure in our society...9/11 happened because our culture wasn't prepared to respond to clear signals from our enemies. Our auto industry has failed b/c our culture wasn't prepared to behave in a competitive way w/ the Japanese industrial cartel. Bonfire failed b/c the group trusted w/ the responsibility of making it happen didn't see the clear signs of danger...even when it was clearly pointed out to them.
FWIW, here’s my advice: if you're really here to change minds on TexAgs, don't take an arrogant and aggressive posture.

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Texas A&M is bigger than the bonfire process...or at least it should be in the educated mind

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The educated mind? That sounds downright impudent to me.
Try not to use terms like 'cultural defect' and certainly don't use the word 'mindless'...I gotta believe you're just trying to provoke someone by using those terms.
I assume you're connected w/ the university somehow - and therefore you have to know that you're incidentally widening your indictment by using the term 'tradition' - an obviously magic word in Aggielend...The fact that I still sing every word of the War Hymn and the Spirit of Aggieland cannot mean that I support the accidental mutilation of precious young life…I hope your indictment of tradition is limited to the closed minds of a small team of students who controlled the execution of Bonfire, and is not meant to smear the rest of our justifiably noble culture.

you just gotta learn to ignore the left wing liberals!! they are gonna do anything to bang on Texas A&M or W.