Russians vs. Nazis and Accountability where truth is illegal

2,670 Views | 28 Replies | Last: 2 yr ago by Teacher_Ag
aalan94
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AG
I've long pondered the nature of the accountability of the average German for all the crimes committed during WWII and the Holocaust. I've lived in Germany, known actual German Wehrmacht soldiers who fought on the Eastern Front, visited three concentration camps and studied the history back and forth, and I've at various times had different views on this. On the one hand, they lived in a police state where all information was controlled, where criticizing the government or sharing unapproved messages was illegal and punishable with severe penalties. But on the other hand, they couldn't have NOT known, as deportation trains traveled extensively throughout Germany, soldiers from the East came back on furloughs, their government made pretty shocking and evil statements that only an idiot would not see as dangerous, etc. etc.

Most recently, I have been more and more convinced that nothing but sheer willful blindness could hide the reality. A really, really good book that has helped my thinking was this one:

Soldaten - On Fighting, Killing and Dying: The Secret Second World War Tapes of German POWs

This book is really good because these are transcripts the British made of German POWs who did not know they were being recorded, so their conversations were not veiled or hidden. While there were some German soldiers in these who didn't know about their crimes or were shocked, many, many did, and even the civilians MUST have known this.

And then I think about Orwell and his concept of double-think: The ability to know two facts that are contradictory but to accept them both as true. Orwell, of course, based it all on the Nazis, and it's clear that something like this was going on psychologically in the German society.

Now, bringing this to modern times, I've been following the Ukraine/Russia war closely and watched a lot of videos of both Russian troops captured and Russian civilians being interviewed about the war. The latter are a mix of people who oppose the war and say it in veiled ways (a minority) and then the majority who toe the party line and deny atrocities. Now, it's hard to tell who is a real believer, vs. people who just say they are to avoild punishment (this is a big problem in China too, or any closed system). But at the point that they influence their neighbors, it almost doesn't matter, because the whole country is a giant feedback loop.

Now, I've been very tempted to embrace the idea that the Russian people are actually victims of Putin's disinformation and his police statements, but to do this suggests that something may be true of the German civilians as well. Clearly there are differences. The Nazi ideology was the result of all-pervasive brainwashing that took over society. They did this for 12 years. Now, Putin's had 20, and though he does do brainwashing in the media, it's not as strong, and he's only basically had full control of the media narrative for the last 10 years or so. But it's very easy as a Russian to go about your day and not think about politics, vs. a person in Nazi Germany where it's in everything you do. You couldn't even take a vacation without doing it through Kraft durch Freude. Now, there's all sorts of reasons Putin didn't do it that way, mostly because he's trying to be subtle and for a bunch of people who survived Soviet times, putting in that kind of structure was a red flag.

Anyway, I'm still not sure where I fall on this. I suspect that the answer, unhappily, is a middle ground between black and white in both cases. But I'm interested in your thoughts.
AgBQ-00
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AG
I think societal paranoia and "othering" of unfavored groups goes a long ways to building the disconnect you describe. I also think that the idea of mass formation psychosis plays a role. Also when the gvt can coerce its people into supporting and perpetrating absolute falsehoods you get that disconnect for people to go along to get along.
It is why solzhenitsyn's idea of live not by lies is so important.
You do not have a soul. You are a soul that has a body.

We sing Hallelujah! The Lamb has overcome!
BQ78
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AG
Saw a poll today that 71% of Russians view the west as their enemy and Putin's approval rating is at 80% up from 60% at the end of last year. Controlling the message is the key whether it is believable or not.
AgRyan04
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A couple years ago I listend to the audiobook version of They Thought They Were Free: The Germans, 1933-45 by Milton Mayer....pretty interesting....the author basically went and lived for a year or so a small German town about a decade after the war and spent a lot of time talking to ten Germans to get a sense of how they felt/feel during the war and in the years after.

It was fascinating to hear how people justified or denied it. It made me realize how much propoganda can manipulate how people react to situations.
aalan94
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AG
Quote:

It is why solzhenitsyn's idea of live not by lies is so important.
Speaking of this, you MUST read this book:

August 1914 - Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn

First of all, it's the best fictional account of war I've ever read. Secondly, once you read it and realize that NOTHING changes in Russia, you will absolutely understand Ukraine. It's basically about the disastrous Battle of Tannenburg. Solzhenitsyn wrote it about WWI, but he's also subtly critiquing Russia in WWII (much as MASH is technically about Korea, but it's REALLY about Vietnam).

Now, a word of caution. The first 4-5 chapters are nonsense disconnected from the rest of the book. It's all about a bourgeois family showing how decadent it is. I think either he realized the censors only read the first few chapters of a book to see if it was Communist Party approved or they forced him to add it because his book didn't criticize capitalism enough. Skip those chapters and start where the war starts, and I guarantee you'll like it. And you'll see Ukraine very differently.
Cen-Tex
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AG
I knew a couple of German war brides in my younger days and was able to ask questions about their time in 1930's -1945 Germany. It was obvious that nationalism played a huge role in their thinking. One of the women mentioned that as a teenager she wrote poems to Hitler. She, along with millions of others were infatuated with the regime.

The other war bride said as the war entered it's last few years, there were whispers about camps where people were sent, but she didn't pay a lot of attention to the gossip. She was more concerned about her job as a nurse at an army hospital and making sure that she and her parents had food on the table.

Many of today's Russians on the other hand have access to social media and can get the other side of the story in real time. You've got to know that most Russians have a national pride as well. Example, the recent pro-Russian rallies in Russia and Germany Several decades of doing things a certain way is hard to give up. (just visit rural Czech Republic)

IMHO, it's not too much different than those that hold an allegiance to the democrat or republican party. We all wear blinders in some form or fashion.
AgBQ-00
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AG
I will check it out
You do not have a soul. You are a soul that has a body.

We sing Hallelujah! The Lamb has overcome!
dead
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aalan94 said:

Quote:

It is why solzhenitsyn's idea of live not by lies is so important.
Speaking of this, you MUST read this book:

August 1914 - Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn

First of all, it's the best fictional account of war I've ever read. Secondly, once you read it and realize that NOTHING changes in Russia, you will absolutely understand Ukraine. It's basically about the disastrous Battle of Tannenburg. Solzhenitsyn wrote it about WWI, but he's also subtly critiquing Russia in WWII (much as MASH is technically about Korea, but it's REALLY about Vietnam).

Now, a word of caution. The first 4-5 chapters are nonsense disconnected from the rest of the book. It's all about a bourgeois family showing how decadent it is. I think either he realized the censors only read the first few chapters of a book to see if it was Communist Party approved or they forced him to add it because his book didn't criticize capitalism enough. Skip those chapters and start where the war starts, and I guarantee you'll like it. And you'll see Ukraine very differently.
Is it better than All Quiet on the Western Front?
(Fun fact, All Quiet was one of the books burned by the Nazis)
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KingofHazor
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When I was a kid and my dad was an officer in the Army, we moved to Germany in 1960. While there, we had a German maid. I was too young to remember any conversations, but my parents recounted for years afterward their shock at the maid's willingness to admit and defend the fact that her family put their grandparents on a train. Those trains were one way only.

On the other hand, I am also undecided. What is the average Russian to do? What was the average German to do?
BQ78
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AG
Quote:

On the other hand, I am also undecided. What is the average Russian to do? What was the average German to do?
Unfortunately it requires an amount of courage the average person doesn't seem to have. Not all of us are cut out to be a Sophie Scholl or a Franz Jagerstatter. And in the end, what did their sacrifice accomplish other than to make a moral stand and become dead heroes of virtue? See, if you start thinking with your head, your courage slips away.
dead
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Jabin said:

When I was a kid and my dad was an officer in the Army, we moved to Germany in 1960. While there, we had a German maid. I was too young to remember any conversations, but my parents recounted for years afterward their shock at the maid's willingness to admit and defend the fact that her family put their grandparents on a train. Those trains were one way only.

On the other hand, I am also undecided. What is the average Russian to do? What was the average German to do?

During the war? Not a lot.
Pre-war? The socialists and communists were fighting the Nazis.
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KingofHazor
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Pre-war some Germans did try to stand up to the Nazis. It's my impression that many of them were simply killed.

Over 1/3 of the Lutheran ministers in Germany surrendered their positions in opposition to the Nazis. That was a bigger deal than we realize here in the States because the Lutheran Church was the official church of Germany, and by surrendering their positions they became unemployable. (I am relying upon my memory from reading Metaxas's biography of Bonhoeffer from years ago).

Bonhoeffer's family were also involved in active opposition to the Nazi regime.
AgBQ-00
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AG
icrymyselftosleep said:

Jabin said:

When I was a kid and my dad was an officer in the Army, we moved to Germany in 1960. While there, we had a German maid. I was too young to remember any conversations, but my parents recounted for years afterward their shock at the maid's willingness to admit and defend the fact that her family put their grandparents on a train. Those trains were one way only.

On the other hand, I am also undecided. What is the average Russian to do? What was the average German to do?

During the war? Not a lot.
Pre-war? The socialists and communists were fighting the Nazis.


If there was ever a case of both sides needing to be killed an buried to never rise again it was this one. The world would be a much better place if all of the different socialist ideologies had killed each other off.
You do not have a soul. You are a soul that has a body.

We sing Hallelujah! The Lamb has overcome!
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AgBQ-00 said:

icrymyselftosleep said:

Jabin said:

When I was a kid and my dad was an officer in the Army, we moved to Germany in 1960. While there, we had a German maid. I was too young to remember any conversations, but my parents recounted for years afterward their shock at the maid's willingness to admit and defend the fact that her family put their grandparents on a train. Those trains were one way only.

On the other hand, I am also undecided. What is the average Russian to do? What was the average German to do?

During the war? Not a lot.
Pre-war? The socialists and communists were fighting the Nazis.


If there was ever a case of both sides needing to be killed an buried to never rise again it was this one. The world would be a much better place if all of the different socialist ideologies had killed each other off.

Yes, because the German socialists and communists totally committed atrocities like the Nazis did. Go back to F16
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AgBQ-00
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AG
Totalitarianism by any other name...

And yes socialism/communism caused far more death world wide than the evil of the German national socialists. They were all birds of a feather with different emphasis in how they separated people to come to power
You do not have a soul. You are a soul that has a body.

We sing Hallelujah! The Lamb has overcome!
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AgBQ-00 said:

Totalitarianism by any other name...

And yes socialism/communism caused far more death world wide than the evil of the German national socialists. They were all birds of a feather with different emphasis in how they separated people to come to power
Takes a certain kind of person to use the "both sides" argument when one side was combatting the Nazi Party and the other side was the Nazi Party.
All I'm going to say is that, when it came down to giving the Nazis unlimited power, the socialists all voted no and the communists had all been arrested.
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AgBQ-00
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And I am making the point that no matter who wins in that situation the outcome is the same or worse. Seriously, someone shilling for that failed ideology on the history board is laughable. You should be ashamed.
You do not have a soul. You are a soul that has a body.

We sing Hallelujah! The Lamb has overcome!
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AgBQ-00 said:

And I am making the point that no matter who wins in that situation the outcome is the same or worse. Seriously, someone shilling for a failed ideology on the history board is laughable. You should be ashamed.
TIL saying that the socialists and communists did good by fighting Nazis is considered shilling.
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AgBQ-00
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AG
Yes it is. Socialism/communism is wholly evil. It subverts individual liberty in favor of totalitarian governmental control. All parties in that scenario in Germany were acting on behalf of evil.
Cheering/celebrating for either side in that means you are shilling for them. Like I said in my first post about it, which you took offense of; it would have been better for all of the socialist factions world wide to kill each other off.
You do not have a soul. You are a soul that has a body.

We sing Hallelujah! The Lamb has overcome!
Ulrich
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How did Germany get to the point where the options were three sects of authoritarian collectivists? That question has been answered many times over. The winner was the most violent, not the most collectivist, but it's a difference of degrees. So then, given that Germany went down that path, how and why did the common folk go along with the Nazi plan? Same question for Russia or China, we're just more familiar with Germany because we went there.
KingofHazor
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Quote:

why did the common folk go along with the Nazi plan?
Although most did, many did not.

Until they seized power, I don't think that the Nazis ever had an elected majority in the German government. Von Hindenberg was forced to form a coalition government with them in order to have a majority, and once the Nazis had those reins of power they simply seized the rest. (At least that's my impression on what happened - I could be way off.)

But most Germans did love Hitler. He restored order to a chaotic Germany and restored their economy which had probably been the world's worst during the Depression. His ardent nationalism was also attractive to a Germany that had been humiliated at Versailles. And no one paid much attention to his statements about the Jews and didn't really believe that he'd murder so many millions of them. They knew that something was happening, and many knew more than that, but none of them really cared about those "dirty Jews" anyway.
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AgBQ-00 said:

Yes it is. Socialism/communism is wholly evil. It subverts individual liberty in favor of totalitarian governmental control. All parties in that scenario in Germany were acting on behalf of evil.
Cheering/celebrating for either side in that means you are shilling for them. Like I said in my first post about it, which you took offense of; it would have been better for all of the socialist factions world wide to kill each other off.
Ok, whatever you say. Look into the Iron Front and maybe you'll change your mind. Or maybe you're more of an AfD kind of person, in which case, check out the links in my sig.
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Jabin said:

Quote:

why did the common folk go along with the Nazi plan?
Although most did, many did not.

Until they seized power, I don't think that the Nazis ever had an elected majority in the German government. Von Hindenberg was forced to form a coalition government with them in order to have a majority, and once the Nazis had those reins of power they simply seized the rest. (At least that's my impression on what happened - I could be way off.)

But most Germans did love Hitler. He restored order to a chaotic Germany and restored their economy which had probably been the world's worst during the Depression. His ardent nationalism was also attractive to a Germany that had been humiliated at Versailles. And no one paid much attention to his statements about the Jews and didn't really believe that he'd murder so many millions of them. They knew that something was happening, and many knew more than that, but none of them really cared about those "dirty Jews" anyway.
The last election was in 1933, and the Nazis won 43.9% of the vote. However, once you arrest the delegates of the communist party (81), they effectively had a majority.

Also, I wouldn't discount the anti-Jewish propaganda. After the Treaty of Versailles, many high ranking members of the military helped push the "stabbed in the back" myth, which was aimed at Jews, among other people. That definitely had an impact on the populace.
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aalan94
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AG
A few things. Yes, August 1914 is better than All Quiet on the Western Front. I have read the latter twice in the original German. It is good, and more literary, like Farewell to Arms. I consider those 3 to be the triumverate of WW 1 books.

I will take exception to the folks who said that Russians have access to social media. Not really. First of all, most Russians are on a proprietary network that the government can control. Russia several weeks ago shut down facebook and google. The one Russian guy I knew is on my antique typewriter group. Runs a typewriter museum in Moscow. A month ago he posted that facebook was being shut down and we haven't heard of him since.

That just leaves email and direct contact with foreigners. That is a pretty small sample size there.
aalan94
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Quote:

Unfortunately it requires an amount of courage the average person doesn't seem to have. Not all of us are cut out to be a Sophie Scholl or a Franz Jagerstatter. And in the end, what did their sacrifice accomplish other than to make a moral stand and become dead heroes of virtue? See, if you start thinking with your head, your courage slips away.

It's easy to have courage to sacrifice your life. It's much, much harder to have the courage to sacrifice the lives of your wife and children.

Quote:

How did Germany get to the point where the options were three sects of authoritarian collectivists? That question has been answered many times over. The winner was the most violent, not the most collectivist, but it's a difference of degrees. So then, given that Germany went down that path, how and why did the common folk go along with the Nazi plan? Same question for Russia or China, we're just more familiar with Germany because we went there.

I'm seeing a lot of people who are misinterpreting German political parties. The Social Democrats were NOT authoritarian or violent. Only the communists were, and they were never really a threat to take over the country. They took over Bavaria for a short time, but they were wildly unpopular. The Nazis used communism and the fear of it to gain supporters, but the communists could not have taken over Germany without outside support.

Quote:

Also, I wouldn't discount the anti-Jewish propaganda. After the Treaty of Versailles, many high ranking members of the military helped push the "stabbed in the back" myth, which was aimed at Jews, among other people. That definitely had an impact on the populace.

The dolchstoss was not inherently anti-Jewish at the beginning, though the Nazis and some other rightist groups tied them to it. The true hatred of the Jews among the ordinary populace grew during the economic collapse. Jews were concentrated in banking and among small shopkeepers, making them in many cases the face of the hyperinflation for many Germans, even though they were not responsible.
AtlAg05
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AG
That's where I've always heard that the Treaty of Versailles was so harsh it caused the German economic collapse and eventually the rise of the Nazis.

I would have to assume the average German had seen the highs and now the lows, and probably had some strong emotions pent up inside. Then enter the "face" of Jewish people as the target of that emotion. It went from not liking the West in general, a faceless mass of countries that had just won the war. To being told these people are the face and reason for our troubles.

I would almost put it similar to 9/11, at first it was terrorists had done it and national pride surged. Then we had a target and the country was behind the push to punish them. But we have freedom of speech and the Internet, so the narrative couldn't be controlled like in Germany.

Not an expert by any means, just thinking out loud.
KingofHazor
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In addition, the intense anti-Jewish feeling in Germany in the 30s was built on the foundation of centuries of anti-Jewish propaganda. The Church would not allow Christians to loan money to other Christians with interest (because of the Bible's admonitions against "usury"), so the European leaders were forced to turn to Jewish financiers to obtain loans, particularly to finance their military adventures and wars.

When the loans had to be paid, the European leaders would raise taxes and, of course, blame the Jews to deflect the ire of the people.
Cen-Tex
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AG
aalan94 said:

A few things. Yes, August 1914 is better than All Quiet on the Western Front. I have read the latter twice in the original German. It is good, and more literary, like Farewell to Arms. I consider those 3 to be the triumverate of WW 1 books.

I will take exception to the folks who said that Russians have access to social media. Not really. First of all, most Russians are on a proprietary network that the government can control. Russia several weeks ago shut down facebook and google. The one Russian guy I knew is on my antique typewriter group. Runs a typewriter museum in Moscow. A month ago he posted that facebook was being shut down and we haven't heard of him since.

That just leaves email and direct contact with foreigners. That is a pretty small sample size there.

I read same about Russians being blocked from certain social platforms since the war started. Prior to the war almost 50% of the people in Russian utilized some form of social media and had the ability to share info. Apps like YouTube and Telegram are still up as of late March. Also many Russians are turning to VPN's to circumvent the ban. I hope you can stay in touch w/your typewriter friend.

The effort to block and control the news parallels what occurred in Germany leading up to WW2. Many years ago, my father became friends with a man that left Germany before the war started. He came to Texas via links with other Germans already living here. He didn't like what he saw and how Germany was changing. How he made his determination to leave Germany in the 1930's, I couldn't begin to guess. Apparently the news back then was a little slower than getting the news from the internet but just as effective.
Teacher_Ag
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AG
From all I've read I get the sense that very few Germans knew the full extent of what was going on, some suspected more was going on than was being made public, and the majority were fairly ignorant. I think when we look back on that time we tend to exaggerate the ability of people to learn anything other than what they were told by their state media. When you think about the locations of the camps and where most of the worst atrocities were taking place, how many average German townsfolk or rural people would have any way to observe the truth or interact with someone who had? In the military, especially in the East, depending upon where you were of couse some men of the Heer would have been close enough (sometimes directly participating) to gain some sense of what was going on, but even then it seems they thought that it was isolated and related to partisan activity, etc. I think the Third Reich did a pretty thorough job of containing the big picture to a large degree, and your averge German wasn't an investigative journalist actively digging for answers, they were people living their lives in an echo chamber controlled from the top. Even in a population totally saturated by constant, open access to a wide array of media, how many Americans do you think give our former allies trapped in Afgh being killed by the Taliban a second thought? They don't understand it, they are strangers, they are far away, and people are concerned about gas prices and the Masters and Will slapping Chris and other far more important matters. All of that to say, I think that the version where virtually no Germans outside of the SS knew is a stretch and I think the version where most Germans knew is a stretch. I think it is complicated by levels of knowledge held by those with the means/ability to see/hear things beyond state propaganda.

As for those of the Heer who saw things or even participated in them, how many of them do you think went home on furlough and shared that with the family? Please don't misunderstand me as comparing German atrocities in the East and American atrocities in our more recent wars, but how many US troops who saw something crazy happen in Vietnam or Iraq went home and told their girlfriends or siblings the full extent of it? Some, yes. But the vast majority would bury that deep and never tell a soul, probably even trying to downplay it or block it out to themselves. I highly doubt those in the Heer who saw/did things beyond typical combat wanted to spread that back home much.
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