History lost to Islam

12,107 Views | 40 Replies | Last: 3 yr ago by stoneyjr78
P.H. Dexippus
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AG
The recent confirmation of the destruction of the amphitheater at Palmyra by ISIL gave me the idea for a thread that I thought would be of a higher quality if discussed here than on the politics board: What significant historical landmarks, works or cultures have been lost to the advance (or regression) of Islam over the centuries? The recent examples are sickening:

Palmyra


Mar Elian Monastery


Mosul Museum & Contents


Buddhas of Bamiyan


2015 National Geo Article

What other treasures have been lost since the 7th century?
74OA
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As the above examples safely existed in Muslim countries for many, many centuries before being damaged recently, the idea that Islam itself is a ruthless force for destroying archeological sites doesn't add up. It's true that the terrorists from ISIS who did the actual recent destruction claim to represent Islam, but that's like McVeigh claiming to be a Christian, imo.
P.H. Dexippus
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Destruction of relics by Islam is not new.

The Destruction of the Church of the Holy Sepulchre in 1009
The destruction of the Church of the Holy Sepulchre, churches, synagogues, torah scrolls and other religious artifacts and buildings in and around Jerusalem, was ordered on 28 September 1009 A.D. by the Fatmid Caliph Al-Hakim bi-Amr Allah, known as the "mad Caliph" or "Nero of Islam" On 29 September 1009, Al-Hakim ordered a governor or Ramla called Yarukh to demolish the area around Constantine's original Church of the Holy Sepulchre. Yarukh, along with his son Yusuf, Al-Husayn ibn Zahir al-Wazzan and Abu'l-Farawis Al-Dayf were among those who started destroying various buildings. The Church of the Holy Sepulchre was said to be built on the site of the Calvary or Golgotha where Jesus was alleged to have been crucified, over a rock-cut room that Helena and Macarius identified as the location of the resurrection. The destruction was chronicled by Yahya ibn Sa'id of Antioch who noted it "cast down as far as the foundations" and the rock cut tomb was demolished in the attempt to "cause all trace of it to disappear". All sacred remains and holy relics were "completely annihilated". Iron hammers were ineffectual against the bedrock foundations of the tomb, so they resorted to burning it with fire.

The Bezeklik Murals

There are 77 rock-cut caves at the site. Most have rectangular spaces with rounded arch ceilings often divided into four sections, each with a mural of the Buddha. The effect is of entire ceiling covers with hundreds of Buddha murals. Some murals show a large Buddha surrounded by other figures, including Turks, Indians and Europeans. The quality of the murals vary with some being artistically naive while others are masterpieces of religious art. Anti portrait Muslims had Buddhist portraits obliterated during the 1000s-1100s while Buddhism was replaced by Islam. The murals at Bezeklik have suffered considerable damage. Many of the murals were damaged by local Muslim population whose religion proscribed figurative images of sentient beings, the eyes and mouths in particular were often gouged out. Pieces of murals were also broken off for use as fertilizer by the locals. Bezeklik's Thousand Buddha Caves are an example of the religiously motivated vandalism against portraits of religious and human figures.

Attempted Demolition of the Pyramids of Giza
At the end of the twelfth century al-Malek al-Aziz Othman ben Yusuf, Saladin's son and heir, attempted to demolish the pyramids, starting with Menkaure's. The workmen whom Al-Aziz had recruited to demolish the pyramid found it almost as expensive to destroy as to build. They stayed at their job for eight months. They were not able to remove more than one or two stones each day at a cost of tiring themselves out utterly.

Colossus of Rhodes

In 653, an Arab force under Muslim caliph Muawiyah I captured Rhodes, and according to The Chronicle of Theophanes the Confessor, the statue was melted down and sold to a Jewish merchant of Edessa who loaded the bronze on 900 camels.

And this is just the tip of the iceberg.
74OA
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AG
........nor it is peculiar to Islam: Iconoclasm. You may find the section on the continent-wide damage done during the Protestant Reformation particularly interesting. My original reply above only addressed the examples you provided in your OP.
Apache
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I agree that it is terrible ISIS is destroying such priceless works of history. War has a way of doing that.
I hope that the Krak des Chevaliers in Syria escapes irreparable damage.

I'm reminded of the Mongol sack of Baghdad, or the Crusader's sack of Constantinople to know it happens throughout history.

Some other examples:
Napoleon's troops shot the nose off the Sphinx in Egypt.
The famous Elgin marbles were hacked off the Parthenon.
The Monte Cassino monastery was destroyed in WWII (but rebuilt)
The Library of Alexandria was burned by Julius Caesar during a siege of the city.

Sapper Redux
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As others have mentioned, why is this thread just focused on Islam? What did the Conquistadors do to the Temple of the Sun in Tenochtitlan? What did Christians do to pagan temples and sites across Europe and the Mediterranean? What did the Protestants do to Catholic Churches (ever been to Holland? Their cathedrals feel like tombs)? What did the French Revolutionaries do to Norte Dame? It goes on and on across religion and culture and history.
The Original AG 76
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AG
Dr. Watson said:

As others have mentioned, why is this thread just focused on Islam? What did the Conquistadors do to the Temple of the Sun in Tenochtitlan? What did Christians do to pagan temples and sites across Europe and the Mediterranean? What did the Protestants do to Catholic Churches (ever been to Holland? Their cathedrals feel like tombs)? What did the French Revolutionaries do to Norte Dame? It goes on and on across religion and culture and history.
ummmmmm
perhaps its because these non-evolved primitive animals are doing these things in the G-DAMN 21st century perhaps vs the typically disingenuous "but they did it too" list you regurgitated from hundreds of years ago....
You really aren't that clueless..are you ?
Sapper Redux
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Historically, one can easily and often point to new variants of a faith that take their beliefs to an extreme that includes destroying all signs of previous cultures and religions. The extremist sects behind Al Qaeda, the Taliban, and ISIS are no different. As another poster already mentioned, thousands of precious historical sites have been under Islamic governments for centuries and been well-preserved and protected.

Try and keep your responses Civil for a change.
SRBS
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We're talking now sapper, not "historically"
Sapper Redux
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SRBS said:

We're talking now sapper, not "historically"


You're on a forum labeled "History."

The phenomenon you're posting about is not unique to this point in history. Nor is it unique to Islam. The context would be important in a forum titled, "History."

If your goal is just to bash Islam, take it back to Politics where you can find fifty people ready to jump in and blue star every anti-Muslim post you can think of.
74OA
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....and, I'd point out, the OP asked what damage had Muslims perpetrated since the 7th century, which certainly opens the discussion to other examples from history, too.

Have we already forgotten the continent-wide looting, cultural destruction and religious atrocities the supposedly civilized Christian Germans perpetrated not all that long ago?

"You really aren't that clueless...are you?"
Ag_EQ12
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Yep. A great many priceless works of art are lost or destroyed because of the Germans. The Rape of Europa is a great read on the topic.
P.H. Dexippus
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Quote:

Why is this thread focused on Islam?
Because I made it that way, read the title. I wasn't looking for a discussion on German art theft, destruction of American Indian culture by Europeans, or the waste caused by Crusaders. I thought the the History board would provide an in-depth discussion on the topic I posed, but I guess the politics-style derailment is complete. Enjoy.
Apache
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I would never expect a thread on this board to stay on one specific topic... I would rather be surprised if it did. All history is connected & I have learned a ton from the historical ramblings on this board.

Instead of being upset that your topic isn't being followed, maybe you could try to steer the conversation back to your topic or examine some of what you posted for factuality. The Colossus of Rhodes was destroyed by an Earthquake, not Muslims. They just chopped it up after it lay broken for hundreds of years.
Apache
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Just out of curiosity, why was Saladin's son trying to demo the pyramids? Was it to use the materials elsewhere or just to destroy the monument? In my short looking around, I can't find anything that clarifies the reasoning. I know the Pyramids once had a limestone veneer that was removed for other construction & not necessarily to destroy them on religious grounds.

This was similar to what happened in Italy: The ancient Roman structures were broken & rebuilt into the cathedrals of the Renaissance. They re-used the columns & ground the limestone up for mortar.
Sapper Redux
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Mr. AGSPRT04 said:

Quote:

Why is this thread focused on Islam?
Because I made it that way, read the title. I wasn't looking for a discussion on German art theft, destruction of American Indian culture by Europeans, or the waste caused by Crusaders. I thought the the History board would provide an in-depth discussion on the topic I posed, but I guess the politics-style derailment is complete. Enjoy.


Why did you feel the need to only focus on Islam? It sounds like you wanted validation for your opinion of the religion rather than a serious discussion of the phenomenon.
Sapper Redux
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Apache said:

Just out of curiosity, why was Saladin's son trying to demo the pyramids? Was it to use the materials elsewhere or just to destroy the monument? In my short looking around, I can't find anything that clarifies the reasoning. I know the Pyramids once had a limestone veneer that was removed for other construction & not necessarily to destroy them on religious grounds.

This was similar to what happened in Italy: The ancient Roman structures were broken & rebuilt into the cathedrals of the Renaissance. They re-used the columns & ground the limestone up for mortar.


The best I can tell is from the account of Abdel Latiff who states that a Greek eunuch, who served as the superintendent of the capital's buildings, wanted to use the stones for his own works. However, the cost of dismantling the pyramids was far too much.
Apache
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AG
Makes sense... kinda what I figured.
p_bubel
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Dr. Watson said:

Mr. AGSPRT04 said:

Quote:

Why is this thread focused on Islam?
Because I made it that way, read the title. I wasn't looking for a discussion on German art theft, destruction of American Indian culture by Europeans, or the waste caused by Crusaders. I thought the the History board would provide an in-depth discussion on the topic I posed, but I guess the politics-style derailment is complete. Enjoy.


Why did you feel the need to only focus on Islam?
Ax grinders gotta grind.
HollywoodBQ
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No doubt there have been *******s in recent years who have done unspeakable things claiming to be in the name of Islam. Their actions have nothing to do with Islam. They're just *******s.

So, here's a little something for the "History preserved by Islam" column.

These are all things which I have been fortunate enough to see personally during my time living in the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia.

Nabatean Tombs at Madain Saleh



Ottoman Empire era Turkish Fort at Hofuf



Petraglyphs outside of Taif



Old Fort on Tarut Island in Qatif



When I was living in Saudi Arabia, we traveled to Egypt one summer. Egypt obviously understands the value of its history. During our trip, we went to the Pyramids, the Sphinx, Luxor, Valley of the Kings, etc. So I'll just sum all of Egypt into this picture:



I haven't been to "The Iraq" but obviously we've all seen pictures of American soldiers on the Ziggurats.

aggiewilliford
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One of the several attacks on the Alexandria museum.
always gig em
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Religion of peace? Yeah right. They're own kind don't even stand up to these demons.

I work with a Jordanian guy and he said all religions used to get along until these guys formed up. What a shame.
Sapper Redux
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always gig em said:

Religion of peace? Yeah right. They're own kind don't even stand up to these demons.

I work with a Jordanian guy and he said all religions used to get along until these guys formed up. What a shame.


Who do you think is currently fighting ISIS?
TKNR_Ags_co21
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Didn't read all of the responses thoroughly but has anyone mentioned the removal of the white casing stones of the pyramid of Khafre in Giza...?

I could be wrong but I was under the impression that the entire pyramid was smoothly cased as you see at the top, but the casing was removed to construct The Citadel and the mosque within it.

DogCo84
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AG
The destruction of historical artifacts by ISIL (and the Taliban/others before them) is ridiculous. There are, however, some Islamic countries that are serious about preserving history--even if it has a religious basis. Example:

UAE Minister and clerics say monastery site in Abu Dhabi is a lesson in tolerance for all

Quote:

ABU DHABI // More than 30 Christian leaders held prayers at the site of a 7th century monastery on Abu Dhabi's Sir Bani Yas Island during a landmark visit sponsored by the Abu Dhabi Crown Prince Court and the National Programme for Tolerance.

The recitation of the Lord's Prayer by Christian leaders, including the regional archbishops of the Syrian Orthodox and Greek Orthodox churches, is thought to be one of the first acts of corporate Christian prayer at the Nestorian monastery one of the few to be uncovered in the Arabian Gulf for several centuries.

Sapper Redux
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Are you saying there was religious motivation for doing so? That material is extremely valuable for general building projects and suffice it to say that not even later Egyptian dynasties accorded the ancient pharaohs the respect they had upon their deaths.
Spore Ag
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Nicely blocked stones make great building material with not muck effort. Hadrian Wall stone contributed to many stone barns in Northumberland.
There has also been reports that Isis marketed some antiquities on the black market to raise money sometimes destroying plaster facimilties. Granted a lot of damage was done and it is repulsive.
There was an exhibit at the MFAH on a Kabul museum curator who saved crate loads of antiquities from the Talibad.
jickyjack1
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Dr. Watson said:

As others have mentioned, why is this thread just focused on Islam? What did the Conquistadors do to the Temple of the Sun in Tenochtitlan? What did Christians do to pagan temples and sites across Europe and the Mediterranean? What did the Protestants do to Catholic Churches (ever been to Holland? Their cathedrals feel like tombs)? What did the French Revolutionaries do to Norte Dame? It goes on and on across religion and culture and history.

You don't cite those as justifications, surely?

This thread is focused on Islam because Islamic fanatics are the ones doing it now. You are too intelligent not to recognize that, and one would think too honest not to admit it's veracity.

Or is one-upmanship the name of the game?
AggieSportsGuy
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I think a better way to phrase his point is this.

Let's say the Westboro Baptist Church started to destroy some ancient archaeology, and the guy created this thread and said "Let's examine how Christians have been destroying archaeology", would you agree with him?

I sure as hell wouldn't. Because the Westboro Baptist Church isn't Christianity in the same way ISIS isn't Islam. You can label yourself however you want, but the acts of a few don't represent the whole.

Just as I'm sure if an international publication started talking about a bunch of stuff "liberals" were doing but titled the article as "Americans", you would jump to defend yourself as not being part of that group.
jickyjack1
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Lots of "ifs" there.
Rabid Cougar
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HollywoodBQ said:


So, here's a little something for the "History preserved by Islam" column.



I haven't been to "The Iraq" but obviously we've all seen pictures of American soldiers on the Ziggurats.


Ur and its surroundings including the Ziggurat is freaking awesome! Lived at Talil in 2009. You cannot step anywhere without stepping on pottery. And going down into the tombs you pass layers upon layers of pottery. For an old arrowhead digger, my radar was in extreme overload.

Uruk is another site that is pretty awesome. It is near Samawah which is northeast of Al Nasariah. It is literally out in the middle of the desert. It is hasn't been "cleaned up' like Ur. The Japanese build a big security fence around it but were run off by the Mahdi army.

What is very interesting about this area is that the sand is covered in sea shells. Ur was a sea port during its time. Uruk was on the Euphrates which is now about 25 miles away.

Rabid Cougar
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AG

UR's Ziggurat in 1930.


Uruk's Ziggurat present day.



BigJim49 AustinNowDallas
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AggieSportsGuy said:

I think a better way to phrase his point is this.

Let's say the Westboro Baptist Church started to destroy some ancient archaeology, and the guy created this thread and said "Let's examine how Christians have been destroying archaeology", would you agree with him?

I sure as hell wouldn't. Because the Westboro Baptist Church isn't Christianity in the same way ISIS isn't Islam. You can label yourself however you want, but the acts of a few don't represent the whole.

Just as I'm sure if an international publication started talking about a bunch of stuff "liberals" were doing but titled the article as "Americans", you would jump to defend yourself as not being part of that group.
How many Westboro Baptists are there compared to ISIS ?
Kozmozag
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Progressive democrats are actively wiping American historic al artifacts today. I think in no la they are doing tonight.
TxTarpon
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Will this be the fate every plantation left after BLM gets their way?

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We will never give up our guns Steve, we don't care if there is a mass shooting every day of the week.
-BarronVonAwesome

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