Whole home generators run about $15k plus fuel and maintenance.
There are people willing to shell out money to fix this issue
There are people willing to shell out money to fix this issue
Centerpoint
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Last: 2 mo ago by BigFred
Bondag said:
Whole home generators run about $15k plus fuel and maintenance.
There are people willing to shell out money to fix this issue
Here
I'd steer clear of the major generac suppliers. Absolute horror stories about Generator Superstore and their inability to do anything right now.
Look at Kohler. Look at Briggs and Stratton...be afraid if you go with a major generac dealer.
Look at Kohler. Look at Briggs and Stratton...be afraid if you go with a major generac dealer.
BrazosDog02 said:
Wow.
"Bury the lines" and "tree trimming doesn't cost much"
I can't fathom how out of touch people are with basic tasks like this. I can't even wrap my head around the comments in this thread. There are a metric f ton of people who have never done any hard work of any sort and it shows.
Don't forget that Karen will eventually get her way, and you will all pay dearly for it.
I'm as free market as they come and believe that CenterPoint should not be allowed to exist in its current form. It is a publicly traded company whose sole fiduciary duty is to its shareholders but benefits from being granted a monopoly through mergers after the Texas retail electricity market was deregulated. The company and its management have no incentive to do anything other than the bare minimum because of their captive customer base. The fact that people are willing to spend tens of thousands of dollars on backup power because the company that charges us every month to provide transmission lines to our retail electric provider (yay choice!!!) is that unreliable.
I work in a business where we start to owe our customers money if our service is down for more than five minutes in a month. The fact that people are willing to defend a company that didn't invest in maintenance and grid hardening because it would cut into the dividend that they pay to shareholders while hundreds of thousands of people are sitting with no electricity in Houston in July is ****ing mindblowing.
No one who is in favor of a free market can defend CenterPoint. They've been given a monopoly and we're seeing the effects of that. Favoring profit at the expense of its customers with no chance at competition. I can't fathom how anyone who claims they're conservative supports this yet we still have bootlickers all over the place. It's incredible and infuriating.
Break them up into multiple smaller companies that can be managed. Centerpoint has no idea how to manage their vast infrastructure.
For the legal eagles can a utility be charged with criminal negligence?
For the legal eagles can a utility be charged with criminal negligence?
Does anyone have an extended run fuel kit for a Honda 2200 generator in the Tomball area I can buy or borrow?
jh0400 said:BrazosDog02 said:
Wow.
"Bury the lines" and "tree trimming doesn't cost much"
I can't fathom how out of touch people are with basic tasks like this. I can't even wrap my head around the comments in this thread. There are a metric f ton of people who have never done any hard work of any sort and it shows.
Don't forget that Karen will eventually get her way, and you will all pay dearly for it.
I'm as free market as they come and believe that CenterPoint should not be allowed to exist in its current form. It is a publicly traded company whose sole fiduciary duty is to its shareholders but benefits from being granted a monopoly through mergers after the Texas retail electricity market was deregulated. The company and its management have no incentive to do anything other than the bare minimum because of their captive customer base. The fact that people are willing to spend tens of thousands of dollars on backup power because the company that charges us every month to provide transmission lines to our retail electric provider (yay choice!!!) is that unreliable.
I work in a business where we start to owe our customers money if our service is down for more than five minutes in a month. The fact that people are willing to defend a company that didn't invest in maintenance and grid hardening because it would cut into the dividend that they pay to shareholders while hundreds of thousands of people are sitting with no electricity in Houston in July is ****ing mindblowing.
And you know this to be true? Your saying if they did not provide dividends we would have our power back on in 1 day?
Bellard
I've never heard of one but check with northern tools. They can get stuff next day if at another area store.LostInLA07 said:
Does anyone have an extended run fuel kit for a Honda 2200 generator in the Tomball area I can buy or borrow?
I have the 2200i and it runs 8 to 8 1/2 hours on one gallon of fuel which the tank holds. I just fill it 3 times a day.
Bellard said:jh0400 said:BrazosDog02 said:
Wow.
"Bury the lines" and "tree trimming doesn't cost much"
I can't fathom how out of touch people are with basic tasks like this. I can't even wrap my head around the comments in this thread. There are a metric f ton of people who have never done any hard work of any sort and it shows.
Don't forget that Karen will eventually get her way, and you will all pay dearly for it.
I'm as free market as they come and believe that CenterPoint should not be allowed to exist in its current form. It is a publicly traded company whose sole fiduciary duty is to its shareholders but benefits from being granted a monopoly through mergers after the Texas retail electricity market was deregulated. The company and its management have no incentive to do anything other than the bare minimum because of their captive customer base. The fact that people are willing to spend tens of thousands of dollars on backup power because the company that charges us every month to provide transmission lines to our retail electric provider (yay choice!!!) is that unreliable.
I work in a business where we start to owe our customers money if our service is down for more than five minutes in a month. The fact that people are willing to defend a company that didn't invest in maintenance and grid hardening because it would cut into the dividend that they pay to shareholders while hundreds of thousands of people are sitting with no electricity in Houston in July is ****ing mindblowing.
And you know this to be true? Your saying if they did not provide dividends we would have our power back on in 1 day?
Where did I say anything about dividends? The issue isn't return of capital to shareholders. The issue is that they are a public company with no competition and a captive customer base. They don't have to spend money to attract or retain customers. They just have to have serviceable infrastructure as long as the wind doesn't blow too hard.
In the Kingwood area, Centerpoint has not maintained their right of ways. Multiple large transmission lines go thru timber with huge trees practically touching the lines. Pipeline companies in the area keep their rows completely cleared and mow annually. As does the railroad.
We need a state law mandating these utilities to keep their row cleared and maintained. Cut down all the trees encroaching on the row and treat the stumps with chemicals. Annually
We need a state law mandating these utilities to keep their row cleared and maintained. Cut down all the trees encroaching on the row and treat the stumps with chemicals. Annually
I remember shortly after ike they came by my place and mauled the trees in the right of way,, wonder if 2008 was the last time they maintained the right of way. Yeah, once every 16 years should do it
https://ts.la/eric59704
And Centerpoint is the worst about not maintaining the high line right of ways. I have different tracts of ranch land served by Entergy and Sam Houston Electric Co-op. Both do a pretty good job of annual mowing and maintenance. When they cut down small Chinese tallow trees growing in the row, they spray chemicals on the cut stump to kill it permanently.
We drove and walked around our Kingwood area high line rows this afternoon and amazed to see the completely overgrown right of ways. And that trees are still on the lines in places. Not sure what some of these crews are doing off in the woods…. Does Centerpoint have any managers or supervisors on site? I've seen plenty of contractors and their crews but not a single Centerpoint truck this week in our neighborhood.
We drove and walked around our Kingwood area high line rows this afternoon and amazed to see the completely overgrown right of ways. And that trees are still on the lines in places. Not sure what some of these crews are doing off in the woods…. Does Centerpoint have any managers or supervisors on site? I've seen plenty of contractors and their crews but not a single Centerpoint truck this week in our neighborhood.
Take pictures and send to each PUCT commissioner.
You're a libertarian we get it.BrazosDog02 said:
Wow.
"Bury the lines" and "tree trimming doesn't cost much"
I can't fathom how out of touch people are with basic tasks like this. I can't even wrap my head around the comments in this thread. There are a metric f ton of people who have never done any hard work of any sort and it shows.
Don't forget that Karen will eventually get her way, and you will all pay dearly for it.
And a lot of the city have already paid dearly for it. Home Depot weren't handing out generators, gas cans, power cords and window a/c units for free.
See me pointing out things in Kingwood vs. FL in the Hurricane thread. After viewing it and living it recently, it is really night and day.Mas89 said:
And Centerpoint is the worst about not maintaining the high line right of ways. I have different tracts of ranch land served by Entergy and Sam Houston Electric Co-op. Both do a pretty good job of annual mowing and maintenance. When they cut down small Chinese tallow trees growing in the row, they spray chemicals on the cut stump to kill it permanently.
We drove and walked around our Kingwood area high line rows this afternoon and amazed to see the completely overgrown right of ways. And that trees are still on the lines in places. Not sure what some of these crews are doing off in the woods…. Does Centerpoint have any managers or supervisors on site? I've seen plenty of contractors and their crews but not a single Centerpoint truck this week in our neighborhood.
~egon
That's what's so frustrating about people who seem to be content to throw up their hands and say "we live in a hurricane state, whatcha gonna do?" Or act like if we can't make the entire system 100% foolproof we shouldn't even try. Because it will cost money. Look to what other states and cities are doing well for mitigation and maintenance and emulate that! Even if it only helps 50% that's a lot more people with power. See what their budgets, line costs and strategies are. The idea that Houston is simply too challenging to ever have reliable power is a loser mindset and that will doom this city long term.
Centerpoint has a lot to answer for and messed up quite a bit with this storm. The certainly far from blameless. However, I think it is important to at least point out the experts from the National Hurricane Center says to expect a few to several days for power outages from a category 1 hurricane.
Types of Damage Due to Hurricane Winds
1
74-95 mph
64-82 kt
119-153 km/h
Very dangerous winds will produce some damage: Well-constructed frame homes could have damage to roof, shingles, vinyl siding and gutters. Large branches of trees will snap and shallowly rooted trees may be toppled. Extensive damage to power lines and poles likely will result in power outages that could last a few to several days.
Saffir-Simpson Hurricane Wind Scale (noaa.gov)
Obviously not saying Centerpoint shouldn't garner hate or calls for change. Also think preventative maintenance and continuous improvement is important.
However, I do think expectations around how fast power should be restored after a category 1 hurricane could be slightly off given what the experts suggest to plan for in case of the event.
Types of Damage Due to Hurricane Winds
1
74-95 mph
64-82 kt
119-153 km/h
Very dangerous winds will produce some damage: Well-constructed frame homes could have damage to roof, shingles, vinyl siding and gutters. Large branches of trees will snap and shallowly rooted trees may be toppled. Extensive damage to power lines and poles likely will result in power outages that could last a few to several days.
Saffir-Simpson Hurricane Wind Scale (noaa.gov)
Obviously not saying Centerpoint shouldn't garner hate or calls for change. Also think preventative maintenance and continuous improvement is important.
However, I do think expectations around how fast power should be restored after a category 1 hurricane could be slightly off given what the experts suggest to plan for in case of the event.
SIAP
Mattress Mack went for the jugular on CenterPoint-less
Mattress Mack went for the jugular on CenterPoint-less
⚡️Mattress Mac lays down the law for the CEO of Centerpoint. pic.twitter.com/5rabMZj0Q5
— Merissa Hansen (@merissahansen17) July 15, 2024
Of course it was for that. In what universe did you think it was okay to post a naked man spreading open his butt cheeks on our platform?
-Moderator
-Moderator
What's the cost to fix underground lines when there is an issue that will inevitably require an underground fix?
How many storms does Houston have to have to recover the $11 billion through savings?
How many storms does Houston have to have to recover the $11 billion through savings?
Again, look to cities and states who have effectively implemented these strategies and see what they paid, how long it took, what repairs look like. I don't know the answers but there are answers out there and processes already in place to emulate. Not just burying lines but vegetation, line maintenance, replacing old poles, transformers etc. And if it turns out, after research, to be a bad solution, explain why. If it will cost too much explain why, and where the money would have to come from, and why fees would need to go up when there is a billion dollars that can be invested back into the company. But don't just shrug and say "too expensive, will take too long, Houston's too big, buy a generator."
ETA Beat 40 I was not referencing you specifically in that last sentence. Just the general attitude I've heard from others when any discussion of higher expectations from Centerpoint comes up.
ETA Beat 40 I was not referencing you specifically in that last sentence. Just the general attitude I've heard from others when any discussion of higher expectations from Centerpoint comes up.
Beat40 said:
What's the cost to fix underground lines when there is an issue that will inevitably require an underground fix?
How many storms does Houston have to have to recover the $11 billion through savings?
Doing some back of the envelope math, I see there are around 29,000 miles of overhead power line in Houston. Not all of that would be buried, so let's take about half of that at 15,000 miles. Assuming the most likely higher estimate of burying line at $2.5M/mile, that comes out to be $37.5B for Houston.
Assuming the dollars value of this storm at $5B, which is probably high in my opinion, and assuming the mitigation issue of burying the lines completely results in $5B saved, it would take 8 storms to recoup the cost. Highly unlikely $5B is saved from each storm as a result of burying the lines, so that 8 storms most likely doubles or triples, so somewhere between 16-24 storms to recoup the cost.
From 2008 - 2024, we've had what, 3 or 4 wide spread long term outages like this one we just faced? Let's just assume 6 outages like this from storms every 16 years. To get to 16-24 storms mentioned above to recoup cost, it would take anywhere from 32-48 years to entirely recoup the cost.
Like I said, back of the envelope math, so please correct where I am wrong, because on the face, burying existing overhead line doesn't seem to make a lot of fiscal sense.
Even if hose numbers what over shoot, if it takes 15+ years to recover the initial outlay of cost to bury existing overhead lines, it probably doesn't make sense from that view point.
Certainly other arguments may make it make more sense.
jenn96 said:
Again, look to cities and states who have effectively implemented these strategies and see what they paid, how long it took, what repairs look like. I don't know the answers but there are answers out there and processes already in place to emulate. Not just burying lines but vegetation, line maintenance, replacing old poles, transformers etc. And if it turns out, after research, to be a bad solution, explain why. If it will cost too much explain why, and where the money would have to come from, and why fees would need to go up when there is a billion dollars that can be invested back into the company. But don't just shrug and say "too expensive, will take too long, Houston's too big, buy a generator."
ETA Beat 40 I was not referencing you specifically in that last sentence. Just the general attitude I've heard from others when any discussion of higher expectations from Centerpoint comes up.
I'm on the side that preventative maintenance is where centerpoint should be receiving the most criticism.
While they do have almost $1B on cash and cash equivalents in their 2023 annual filing, they also have almost $19B in debt.
Don't know how much cash they have to keep on hand for that.
The $19B in debt is largely why the $6B in profit that is getting spouted is largely misleading.
Overall point is they deserve a lot of criticism for their preventative maintenance. That alone would have make the situation much easier. I hope they change the way that functions as a result of this.
On the point of getting power back quickly, I just think that's a function of people. It just takes a hell of a lot of time to get 2.7M people back online, especially when the guidance from the experts says it could take a long time. Sure, their communication deserves criticism too.
B40:
My brother is in the business and said he and some colleagues were discussing all the poles that snapped off at the ground without trees falling on lines and blamed it on exactly what you were saying, preventive maintenance. Rotted poles that were not replaced when they should have been years ago.
My brother is in the business and said he and some colleagues were discussing all the poles that snapped off at the ground without trees falling on lines and blamed it on exactly what you were saying, preventive maintenance. Rotted poles that were not replaced when they should have been years ago.
Beat40 said:
Centerpoint has a lot to answer for and messed up quite a bit with this storm. The certainly far from blameless. However, I think it is important to at least point out the experts from the National Hurricane Center says to expect a few to several days for power outages from a category 1 hurricane.
Types of Damage Due to Hurricane Winds
1
74-95 mph
64-82 kt
119-153 km/h
Very dangerous winds will produce some damage: Well-constructed frame homes could have damage to roof, shingles, vinyl siding and gutters. Large branches of trees will snap and shallowly rooted trees may be toppled. Extensive damage to power lines and poles likely will result in power outages that could last a few to several days.
Saffir-Simpson Hurricane Wind Scale (noaa.gov)
Obviously not saying Centerpoint shouldn't garner hate or calls for change. Also think preventative maintenance and continuous improvement is important.
However, I do think expectations around how fast power should be restored after a category 1 hurricane could be slightly off given what the experts suggest to plan for in case of the event.
Get out of here with your common sense.
Beat40 said:
Centerpoint has a lot to answer for and messed up quite a bit with this storm. The certainly far from blameless. However, I think it is important to at least point out the experts from the National Hurricane Center says to expect a few to several days for power outages from a category 1 hurricane.
Types of Damage Due to Hurricane Winds
1
74-95 mph
64-82 kt
119-153 km/h
Very dangerous winds will produce some damage: Well-constructed frame homes could have damage to roof, shingles, vinyl siding and gutters. Large branches of trees will snap and shallowly rooted trees may be toppled. Extensive damage to power lines and poles likely will result in power outages that could last a few to several days.
Saffir-Simpson Hurricane Wind Scale (noaa.gov)
Obviously not saying Centerpoint shouldn't garner hate or calls for change. Also think preventative maintenance and continuous improvement is important.
However, I do think expectations around how fast power should be restored after a category 1 hurricane could be slightly off given what the experts suggest to plan for in case of the event.
This is all understood.
I think where most will stand is that the issue is this isn't a one time event. Not that they would share the historical data, but I suspect there are few storms we don't see 100,000 customers lose power in. It's a running things on most of the news channels to note how many people have lost power because the numbers are so big.
So while this may be a once ever 10-15 years event, the constant outages aren't. There's a reason so much of Houston is invested in generators. You don't do that if you trust the grid not to produce outages frequently.
If people believed their power was going to stay on, except in the most extreme circumstances, there probably isn't any noise. But when the power is going off so often, one starts to wonder if CenterPointless is actually maintaining the grid, and maybe we need a much deeper dive into their financials to determine that.
What kind of problem? The lines are encased in concrete and typically have water in the pipes anyway.Beat40 said:
What's the cost to fix underground lines when there is an issue that will inevitably require an underground fix?
How many storms does Houston have to have to recover the $11 billion through savings?
The only issue I've ever heard of with underground lines (acknowledging it's not my area of expertise) is when the lines short out and burn up underground due to user error. Then the conductors have to be pulled and replaced.
Otherwise they're immune from wind and weather.
Fitch said:What kind of problem? The lines are encased in concrete and typically have water in the pipes anyway.Beat40 said:
What's the cost to fix underground lines when there is an issue that will inevitably require an underground fix?
How many storms does Houston have to have to recover the $11 billion through savings?
The only issue I've ever heard of with underground lines (acknowledging it's not my area of expertise) is when the lines short out and burn up underground due to user error. Then the conductors have to be pulled and replaced.
Otherwise they're immune from wind and weather.
3-phase lines are encased when buried. The underground lines running throughout your neighborhood are not.
Point of correction - the 29,000 miles of overhead lines is the cumulative lineal length of all the lines, not the road length they traverse, i.e. multiple circuits overhead run in parallel. Same would be the case for underground.Beat40 said:Beat40 said:
What's the cost to fix underground lines when there is an issue that will inevitably require an underground fix?
How many storms does Houston have to have to recover the $11 billion through savings?
Doing some back of the envelope math, I see there are around 29,000 miles of overhead power line in Houston. Not all of that would be buried, so let's take about half of that at 15,000 miles. Assuming the most likely higher estimate of burying line at $2.5M/mile, that comes out to be $37.5B for Houston.
Assuming the dollars value of this storm at $5B, which is probably high in my opinion, and assuming the mitigation issue of burying the lines completely results in $5B saved, it would take 8 storms to recoup the cost. Highly unlikely $5B is saved from each storm as a result of burying the lines, so that 8 storms most likely doubles or triples, so somewhere between 16-24 storms to recoup the cost.
From 2008 - 2024, we've had what, 3 or 4 wide spread long term outages like this one we just faced? Let's just assume 6 outages like this from storms every 16 years. To get to 16-24 storms mentioned above to recoup cost, it would take anywhere from 32-48 years to entirely recoup the cost.
Like I said, back of the envelope math, so please correct where I am wrong, because on the face, burying existing overhead line doesn't seem to make a lot of fiscal sense.
Even if hose numbers what over shoot, if it takes 15+ years to recover the initial outlay of cost to bury existing overhead lines, it probably doesn't make sense from that view point.
Certainly other arguments may make it make more sense.
Depending on the source you check, Houston has 6,200 miles of roads or 16,000 lane miles of roads - the former is what we care about here.
New info to me. City / Centerpoint standard as I understand it is for all buried electrical that is within the City ROW (generally under streets to be encased in dyed concrete. Secondary lines are just conduits or direct bury.NoahAg said:Fitch said:What kind of problem? The lines are encased in concrete and typically have water in the pipes anyway.Beat40 said:
What's the cost to fix underground lines when there is an issue that will inevitably require an underground fix?
How many storms does Houston have to have to recover the $11 billion through savings?
The only issue I've ever heard of with underground lines (acknowledging it's not my area of expertise) is when the lines short out and burn up underground due to user error. Then the conductors have to be pulled and replaced.
Otherwise they're immune from wind and weather.
3-phase lines are encased when buried. The underground lines running throughout your neighborhood are not.
The red concrete of doom.
A pain in the ass to put in, a bigger pain to demolish.
A pain in the ass to put in, a bigger pain to demolish.
Lights blinking today during a minor storm.
I'm curious for this list. What cities and states have done this?Quote:
Again, look to cities and states who have effectively implemented these strategies and see what they paid, how long it took, what repairs look like.
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