I've been wondering who owned those. They are mobile gensets… that article is kind of dumb, the author is showing their ignorance.

They're backup for peak. Liquid fired simple cycle GTs.

If we get to tight grid conditions they'll run. This really isn't something to be upset about, and it doesn't have anything to do with Beryl outage.

I agree with this. Generating electricity seems extremely outside of CPs mandate. I don't understand why they would be approved by the PUC to do this. Or, if they were, they should not be able to profit off of the power they generate - they should get capacity payments and fixed price accordingly, or the profit should revert to reduce fees.

Power also went out in that storm, came back for an hour and is out again.

txags92 said:

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CDUB98 said:

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Let's put some perspective around that article.

CP could have those gen sets up and running full tilt, but if the power lines in your 'hood are down, it doesn't mean squat.

These gen sets are to take the place of power feeds into a substation. Yes, they are large. That's what it takes to make big power.

Big machines require many pieces and parts to make them work. It is simply the nature of the equipment. This isn't new or groundbreaking, it's just that most people haven't been lucky enough to see big things put together.

The article is barking up the wrong tree mostly. The focus seems to be more on the complexity of the setup rather than CP crapping cash down a hole when it could have been much better spent elsewhere.

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Here is what bugs me about those. Centerpoint was able to pass the cost of buying the generator off onto the customer and stick up with a 6.5% profit on top of making us buy them for Centperpoint. But if they ever get used, Centerpoint isn't going to give that power away for free, they are going to charge the going rate for it and add profit on top of that too. So Centerpoint customers will get to buy power from generators that they already paid for and will be forced by a monopoly to pay for profit on top of it both times.

At the very least, it was wrong to let them charge a profit on top of the cost for generators that have never been used and that the customers got nothing from. But to make them pay for the power generated if they are eventually put to use will just be adding insult to injury.

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Agree with everything you said.

Zobel said:

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I agree with this. Generating electricity seems extremely outside of CPs mandate. I don't understand why they would be approved by the PUC to do this. Or, if they were, they should not be able to profit off of the power they generate - they should get capacity payments and fixed price accordingly, or the profit should revert to reduce fees.

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To me, CNP should only operate those units if their lines are out. And the cost to CNP users should be free.

I know they typically put those at substations, since the inlet feed to the substation is out, but the outlet lines are 'fine'. Think of the derecho droping the high tension lines; put a generator at the substation and people have power back online.

But the gen-sets should be balanced between repair/replace costs of towers. Hence why they should operate them for free, since 'we' bought them.

~egon

I don't think that is what they are for, but it's possible. They'd be running as grid forming / power islands in that case and setting frequency. Truly disconnected from the grid, and you'd have to manage load on that block independently. I really dont think that's the idea.

I think they're there as a back stop on peak demand days. Liquid fuel peakers to fire up at critical nodes to prevent brownouts.

I'm not upset about the idea, and even if they never run they are providing a service (backup is a service, just like insurance, and costs even if never used). Just wonder who gets the profit if they fire up and sell power at $9000/MWh. The whole point of deregulation was to break apart infrastructure/ delivery from generation. If we need that backup, it should be done by a separate entity and the risk/reward needs to be coupled and carried by them.

Edit to add. They may also be there for what's called black start. If you lose the grid, like all the power is out, most power plants can't start. They need AC power to start up, to run pumps etc. Black start units have batteries and DC systems and are usually liquid fired (so not reliant on electric compressor supplied natural gas..) so they can start up and bootstrap the grid. I could see that being a valid CP mission.

This was my immediate thought based on skimming the article

You have generation and then distribution

If lines are down everywhere, adding more generation isn't going to do anything outside a localized area…and that's assuming you can even tie into the T&D infrastructure safely.

mm98 said:

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This was my immediate thought based on skimming the article

You have generation and then distribution

If lines are down everywhere, adding more generation isn't going to do anything outside a localized area…and that's assuming you can even tie into the T&D infrastructure safely.

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mm98 said:

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This was my immediate thought based on skimming the article

You have generation and then distribution

If lines are down everywhere, adding more generation isn't going to do anything outside a localized area…and that's assuming you can even tie into the T&D infrastructure safely.

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Yea. Fixing a transformer with a 30 minute fix will likely solve these issues. I am not familiar enough with technology available, but if you could have lines that can tell you they don't have power going through them, but there is connectivity from point A to point B then it will let you know where to prioritize crews and what materials they will need.

Zobel said:

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I don't think that is what they are for, but it's possible. They'd be running as grid forming / power islands in that case and setting frequency. Truly disconnected from the grid, and you'd have to manage load on that block independently. I really dont think that's the idea.

I think they're there as a back stop on peak demand days. Liquid fuel peakers to fire up at critical nodes to prevent brownouts.

I'm not upset about the idea, and even if they never run they are providing a service (backup is a service, just like insurance, and costs even if never used). Just wonder who gets the profit if they fire up and sell power at $9000/MWh. The whole point of deregulation was to break apart infrastructure/ delivery from generation. If we need that backup, it should be done by a separate entity and the risk/reward needs to be coupled and carried by them.

Edit to add. They may also be there for what's called black start. If you lose the grid, like all the power is out, most power plants can't start. They need AC power to start up, to run pumps etc. Black start units have batteries and DC systems and are usually liquid fired (so not reliant on electric compressor supplied natural gas..) so they can start up and bootstrap the grid. I could see that being a valid CP mission.

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I know about black starts and such; designed LNG plants that were power islands and got to go through the whole process of what to start and how, along with load shedding and such when one of your generator trips.

But agreed that the idea of using them for peakers is fine; but they aren't in the generation business. The whole point of breaking it up was so that there was space. But I see the power grid just like the EtOH business (beer). Eventually the groups get back togher because "they really like each other and this time it'll be different!" unless someone (the gov't) steps in and says no.

But after the derecho, a buddy who works for CNP said they were deploying generators for substations to bring power to all. I didn't press for details, but that's the only reason I could see. Partial to total inlet line loss, but demand is still there. Or partial inlet capacity and local generation to 'boost' for demand.

~egon

hey you design lng plants too

small world

Did everybody get electricity back by now?

At our office of about 140, we've had 2 people put in their notice to either move closer to family in another part of the state or to another part of the country just this week.

AgLA06 said:

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That's because you weren't there for the fires.

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I am on the opposite side of town from the park, so would not have been impacted by that. Specifically avoided Tahitian Village area for that reason.

Guitarsoup said:

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It rained so my power is out.

Also it was out a significant about if time this afternoon before it rained

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Definitely nothing CenterPoint could have done differently.

Who could have foreseen it would rain in Houston.

ChemAg15 said:

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When I bought my house I specifically checked to make sure I wasn't in the 500 or 100 year fire plain. People make terrible decisions and then expect the rest of us to bail them out.

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Exactly. Listening to Ursus' thoughts on the area made me really pay attention to the fire danger when we were looking for new homes. Frankly speaking, there are a lot of areas where new homes are being built in Tahitian Village that are extremely dangerous fire traps with very limited escape routes. There appeared to be little to no firewise planning in the development or construction in the area, which is shocking considering how recently that whole area was threatened with more than one extremely dangerous fire.

Serotonin said:

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Definitely a bingo square on Houston weather threads:

Guy who checks in to let everyone know he no longer lives in Houston and he is very smart for making the move, and everything is great at his new location.

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Only posted about it in response to a story posted about people wanting to leave Houston due to the severe weather risks. Only left because my wife got a job she really wanted in Austin. Not sorry to have missed all the weather fun. Don't really think that makes me smart, just lucky. But carry on.

Tree debris crews spotted in 77096 picking up all the downed limbs stacked on curbs.

txags92 said:

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Serotonin said:

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Definitely a bingo square on Houston weather threads:

Guy who checks in to let everyone know he no longer lives in Houston and he is very smart for making the move, and everything is great at his new location.

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Only posted about it in response to a story posted about people wanting to leave Houston due to the severe weather risks. Only left because my wife got a job she really wanted in Austin. Not sorry to have missed all the weather fun. Don't really think that makes me smart, just lucky. But carry on.

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I'm out too, but very recently. Didn't dodge the last hurricane before getting out. Movers came with no power.

Guitarsoup said:

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Ag13 said:

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mnetop said:

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https://www.houstonchronicle.com/news/investigations/article/generator-centerpoint-beryl-high-price-19569498.php?utm_content=cta&sid=5b0232722ddf9c12eaecf521&ss=A&st_rid=8d06a5d6-defa-4f88-a223-acb9fd75bfb1&utm_source=newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_term=&utm_campaign=HC_The713Evening


Spend money on those but not making sure the infrastructure is sound?? Yeah, that makes total sense. And worse of all you don't even fully utilize them....

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This is infuriating

Quote:

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That's partly because even though CenterPoint has referred to the equipment as "mobile generation," the vast majority of it is not actually that mobile. Fifteen of the generators each with a capacity of 32 megawatts, big enough to power entire neighborhoods take several days to assemble and cannot be moved without a special permit, which itself can take days to secure

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Quote:

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He acknowledged that the larger 32-megawatt generators have never been used, but said they serve as a crucial "insurance policy" for even bigger power outages.

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I guess they are saving these for when Houston gets taken out by a nuke or something?

Also ... please don't forget who actually paid for this:

Quote:

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Houston-area leaders, consumer advocates and many trade groups disagree. They launched a fierce protest when CenterPoint first asked in 2022 to hike rates to cover the cost of leasing the generators.

But state regulators overruled them, ultimately allowing CenterPoint to recoup the cost of the generators plus a 6.5% profit. They've already added about $1 per month to the average residential customer's bill, and are expected to hike rates by at least another $3 a month in the coming years, records show.

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Seems like the things that gets used when there's is a shortage of statewide power.

Those generators don't do much good when there's plenty of power, but the lines to deliver it are all down

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They also don't do any good when they have NEVER BEEN USED PERIOD.

Centerpoint must have taken the Air Force class with their equipment - do a nifty power point presentation on why it is necessary to spend nearly a billion dollars on the equipment, then immediately declare it "strategic" after it is obtained so that it can never actually be used.

schmellba99 said:

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You do realize that a whole lot of wildfires aren't in thick woods, right?

Also, shouldn't you be on the Bastrop board?

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Yes, and proper firewise planning and protection can go a long ways towards mitigation those risks. When your house is surrounded with trees and has trees arching over the top of it like many I saw east of Bastrop, it is much harder to create defensible space. And when there are only 1-2 narrow roads through dense forested areas that you could use to escape, it becomes a no from me. So are we going to keep discussing fires or can we get back to hurricane recovery?

I would love for there to be a board for the area between Houston and Austin and San Antonio. But here we are. Also, I have family still in the Houston area, so I try to stay informed to help them.

Teddy Perkins said:

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Tree debris crews spotted in 77096 picking up all the downed limbs stacked on curbs.

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It would be nice if they picked up recycling. Everybody left their cans out and the storms last night knocked crap all over the roads.