Bitter Old Man is crushing this thread. Called a spade a spade and came back to drop some more knowledge.

I think his detractors don't like the uncomfortable truths he brought up. And whoever is saying kids intelligence's are all equal sponges has clearly never spent time around kids in an educational environment. Or honestly, spent any time around anyone in groups.

You want to know what the biggest predictor of leaving poverty is? IQ. IQ is at the core of all the other indicators of poverty alleviation. Teenage birth rates, showing delayed gratification, standardized testing scores, etc all track with IQ. IQ also tracks with income and wealth to a certain extent. IQ is also accepted to be at least half genetically predisposed. If your parents had a high IQ, there's a good chance you'll have it to.

Crushing this thread with unsubstantiated horse poop? Sure. Why not at least TRY to bring some credible studies or information here.

Yeah, entire swaths of Austin with minorities are genetically dumber than people who live in Westlake. He (and probably you) are blending a dozen issues that all play a significant role in why certain schools fall behind.

https://www.thecut.com/2017/05/genetics-intelligence.html

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That means about 95 percent of the intelligence differences in these samples, at least as measured in this manner, did not come down to the genes the researchers examined, which leaves plenty of room for those concerned with environmental influences.

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He is absolutely right that there are VERY gifted individuals who are are just sharp from day 1. They are the outliers no matter the color of their skin.

https://cepa.stanford.edu/content/school-district-socioeconomic-status-race-and-academic-achievement
PDF

Look at page 6 and the strong correlation between median family income and school performance. There are also plenty of studies where affluent parents adopt kids who are of a different race and they go on to perform no different than other kids. My only issue with the argument made was that the intelligence of kids was effectively tied to their race, and that is absolute garbage of the highest order.

I think you could say families in certain areas may not all buy into the understanding that an education is very important. Those families may not have a mom AND a dad. Those families may be making less or working more hours where they can't spend the time overseeing and helping their children learn. Those families may not be very well educated themselves. There are plenty of issues that factor into why poorer school districts test below others on standardized tests. However, the reason isn't because they are genetically dumber.

Where did I once mention race? Sounds like you've got this skewed world view where only minorities can live in poverty and only white people can enjoy financial and academic success.

This is such an embarrassing thread. The generalizations about entire demographics is blatantly classist and dog whistle racist. I'm flagging for wrong forum - take the bigotry back to the politics board.

evan_aggie said:

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Crushing this thread with unsubstantiated horse poop? Sure. Why not at least TRY to bring some credible studies or information here.

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First of all, you need to stop bringing race into this discussion. I NEVER said anything was tied to race. I've said repeatedly that race isn't a determining factor. I also never drew a line at I-35 or mentioned East/West. Until your most recent post, you actually haven't done anything but call me names and tell me I was wrong. While I realize that is acceptable arguing in the current political climate, I don't accept it as valid.

Here are some facts for you:

The lowest rated high-schools in the Austin Area are, in order:
Luling HS (South of Austin,Majority Hispanic/White)
LBJ HS (East, Majority Hispanic/Black)
San Marcos HS (South, Majority Hispanic)
Manor HS (East, Majority Hispanic)
Florence HS (Northwest, Majority White)
Crockett HS (South, Majority Hispanic)
Lockhart HS (South, Majority Hispanic)
Burnet HS (West, Majority White)

Do you know what the #1 School in the area is? (hint: not Westlake)
LASA HS, which is East of Austin and Majority White/Hispanic
#2 is Westwood (West, 50% White and 40% Hispanic/Black
#3 is Richards School for Young Women (South, Majority Hispanic)
#4 is Andersen HS (Northwest, White/Hispanic)
#5 Bowie HS (South, White/Hispanic)
#6 Westlake (West, White)

So, what can we glean from this? Well, the smaller, bedroom towns seem to be worse off than East Austin. Race doesnt have anything to do with it, since the top and bottom school have similar race makeups, and there are as many White majority schools in the top as the bottom.

#1 and #3 are both magnet schools, which means they pluck the "Smart" kids out of the bad schools, thus making the bad schools dumber on average.

I can't argue that there is a correlation between median income and school performance, as I said as much in one of my earlier posts. But correlation does not imply causation. My hypothesis is that the "smarter" people are typically more successful and make more money, so of course there is correlation between school performance and money.

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Those families may be making less or working more hours where they can't spend the time overseeing and helping their children learn.

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This is a massive assumption that is categorically false, and just fits the social-activist narrative. I know plenty of well-off families who's parents both work high-paying, white-collar jobs, and would laugh if you asked them if they worked 40 hour weeks. Often they are travelling for days at a time, and work late, and leave early. Their kids are being raised by proxy, with a nanny that didnt graduate high-school. However, the kids are brilliant, because their parents are brilliant.

One set of my neighbors are from Columbia, and English is their second language that they are still learning. They are also Petro Engineers, and really smart. They travel all the time to drill sites, and so the abuela (speaks 0% English) lives with them, and takes care of the kids. Their daughter is killing it at school, because she's brilliant like her parents. They aren't white, they don't speak good English, and they are never home.

My other neighbor is a white, Aggie family. Good folks, good friends. Their kids aren't as bright, and are having trouble at school. One is in the same class as the girl above. Why? The parents arent that smart. They arent drooling morons, but they were average B/C students from average backgrounds. The dad is a GREAT sales guy and has done very well in his field.

My point? Intelligence spans all races, and it tends to rise to the top of socio-economic strati. In simple words? People on average aren't smart because they are rich, they are rich because they are smart.

The Social Justice Warriors of today don't like this. They want to label everyone, and classify them based on easily measured criteria, like race or income. Its easier to blame school performance on those things, because it supports the idea that there is an invisible, external hand holding them back and that we just need to remove that hand and then all will be ok.

I'm sure you studied statistics. Everything tends to fit in a bell curve. in the middle of that curve is "average." On either side is "above average" and "below average." We are all in the same bell curve.

*My school ranking data came from here: http://childrenatrisk.org/2017-school-rankings/

Demographics came from Texas Tribune

There is no way there are 40 percent hispanic/black kids at Westwood. Let me dig on the TEA site

Here you go.
American Indian/Alaska Native 1%
Asian 29%
Black 3%
Hawaiian .1%
Hispanic 16%
White 47%
Two or More Races 4%
Westwood Demographics

JCRiley09 said:

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This is such an embarrassing thread. The generalizations about entire demographics is blatantly classist and dog whistle racist. I'm flagging for wrong forum - take the bigotry back to the politics board.

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Do you know what "bigot" means? Obviously not, because then you would see the irony of your post. Simply put, a bigot is someone who is completely intolerant of other's opinions.

So, here we are having a civil discussion of an uncomfortable topic, and since you don't agree with the opinion being expressed (I'm assuming its mine), your response is to call names and attempt to banish the opinion. As opposed to presenting your opinion for comparison. You might want to rethink who the bigot is.

You can see my statement above about race. I didn't bring it up, nor did I imply it. You did. You might want to do some reflection.

I'll accept your criticism of being classist, I can see that, but my argument is that nature is cold and doesn't fit the warm-fuzzy PC narrative. Things naturally separate into classes, hell its the basis for evolution. Classist implies that one believes that mobility between classes is not possible. I have already presented that this is incorrect and that I believe class mobility is an everyday occurrence.

nailed it.

to be fair I think we could find another ranking source that might give different rankings. I agree with what you are saying but just because one ranking sources labeled school A as better than school B doesn't mean it's right.

As an example: https://www.niche.com/k12/search/best-high-schools/m/austin-metro-area/ I'm not saying this one is more "right" - just saying each site has its own criteria that yields different results.

I actually agree with you more than it may seem. However, I think you said some things (and still continue to generalize) that are so dated and ignorant in belief.

To be clear: I said you are ignorant because you express your opinions and make large generalizations about the intelligence of kids (dumb kids, right?) in poorer school districts w/o any factual backing. You go further by saying they have dumb parents.

Ignorant:
lacking knowledge or awareness in general; uneducated or unsophisticated.


Also, did it take a while to find whatever breakdown of a school you wanted to find with respect to demographics? How can we have a discussion when the one piece of data you try to provide to justify your point is completely wrong? Do I actually have to download a 13MB file to sort through and find the information you are referencing? See one of the 6 links directly to the breakdown of school enrollment.

Westwood is 19% Hispanic + Black
LASA is 27% Hispanic + Black (except you already noted it is a magnet/charter school)

https://schools.texastribune.org/districts/round-rock-isd/westwood-high-school/
https://www.usnews.com/education/best-high-schools/texas/districts/round-rock-independent-school-district/westwood-high-school-19801/student-body
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Westwood_High_School_(Austin,_Texas)
https://www.greatschools.org/texas/austin/12101-Lasa-High-School/
http://www.usaschoolinfo.com/school/lasa-high-school-austin-texas.84508/enrollment
http://www.usaschoolinfo.com/school/lasa-high-school-austin-texas.84508/enrollment

You are absolutely right: smart people tend to accumulate more wealth and pass on a variety of traits to their kids. Even if the intelligence of their children is "normal", they are still better off because they usually have the monetary resources to get a leg up. They also tend to have connections through successful friends, families, etc that can help.

Back to the main point (my opinion): why are some AISD school bad? You have a large swath of people who earn decent money in Austin, and you have plenty of folks who do not. Those that have money are overly concerned that their kids go to the best schools that they can, and that means you move into a good district or put your kid into a magnet school.

This leaves big areas w/ families that can't afford to live or spend the time and resources to commute and have them go elsewhere. I don't think AISD is any different than schools in Houston or San Antonio or even Dallas. People who put an emphasis on education (and likely have the means) worry about living and raising their kids in good school districts.

Those that remain in areas with underachieving schools aren't filled with "stupid" or "dumb" parents and kids, much to the dismay of the Bitter Old Man. They are likely the result of being raised in a culture that didn't stress the significance of an education; maybe they themselves weren't as highly educated. Maybe they don't have close friends and families who understand that excelling in school is a way up.

I will also add my belief that throwing money around or redistributing it between different people or areas is absolutely NOT going to fix ISD inequality. That's just my opinion.

This is the best, serious answer to OP's question

Quote:

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To be clear: I said you are ignorant because you express your opinions

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Yes. I do.

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make large generalizations

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I am making "large generalizations" because I am talking about Macro populations. That's how that works. Otherwise, I could make the counter-argument that because a couple of kids at a particular school aced the test, there is nothing wrong with that school. That would be a "micro-level" argument, and would be incorrect.

Quote:

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w/o any factual backing

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My factual backing is standardized test scores, which I am asserting are an fair measure of relative intelligence among a population of students. My theory being that geographical populations have similar intelligence levels, with some being higher than others, and that wealth does correlate, but is coincidental to the matter.

You, on the other hand have failed to provide any "factual backing" to refute my theory, other than to tell me I'm wrong and to repeat the claim that the correlation between wealth and test performance is causal. I will stipulate that there is certainly correlation between wealth and scores.

Quote:

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Ignorant:

lacking knowledge or awareness in general; uneducated or unsophisticated.

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I know what ignorant means. Calling someone ignorant is akin to saying "Bless your Heart" in the southern vernacular. It implies that you know better than them and is quite dismissive, unless you back that shht up.

JCRiley09 said:

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This is the best, serious answer to OP's question

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What are you doing back here? I thought you were embarrassed of this whole conversation.

Quote:

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Those that remain in areas with underachieving schools aren't filled with "stupid" or "dumb" parents and kids, much to the dismay of the Bitter Old Man. They are likely the result of being raised in a culture that didn't stress the significance of an education; maybe they themselves weren't as highly educated. Maybe they don't have close friends and families who understand that excelling in school is a way up.

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I respect your opinion, but none of this is factual. You are making observations, based on your anecdotal experience, which is the same thing I'm doing. I'll also say that what you are saying here is a little condescending.

My kid goes to an elementary school on the E. side that has test scores that are at and sometimes above some schools in the "richer" areas of ATX. That's straight from the TEA website.

Just as an aside: LASA is moving to the old Eastside HS location, and they are building a new $80M Eastside HS on the grounds of the old JC Anderson HS.

My dad is a farmer and my mom is a teacher. Together, they were pretty average middle class, maybe even on the lower side of middle class.

I grew up in a county with one of the highest rates of meth addiction and lowest average income though, so I was considered "rich" by their standards.

My parents "wealth" was constantly thrown in my face. I was made fun of over it, me making good grades, trying in school, etc. There is definitely a toxic underside in lower class cultures towards people who want to get out of it and better themselves.

Champ Bailey said:

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My dad is a farmer and my mom is a teacher. Together, they were pretty average middle class, maybe even on the lower side of middle class.

I grew up in a county with one of the highest rates of meth addiction and lowest average income though, so I was considered "rich" by their standards.

My parents "wealth" was constantly thrown in my face. I was made fun of over it, me making good grades, trying in school, etc. There is definitely a toxic underside in lower class cultures towards people who want to get out of it and better themselves.

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prepare to get battered with replies that amount to "nu uh".

Who was giving you grief? Other rich kids, or poor kids?

Charpie said:

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Who was giving you grief? Other rich kids, or poor kids?

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Poor kids. Most of the school was poor kids.

And I think it really comes down to the importance placed on education. My mom had stressed the importance of college for education from an early age, and my dad the same (although he stressed how much fun it was too, which was also a motivator). The other kids parents never had seen the benefits of secondary education, so they didn't stress or weren't around to emphasize the importance of it.

I think it's similar to how lower class people always complain about the stock market. They cast aspersions at the whole idea of the stock markets or really any investment strategies, and have this misconception that it's stealing from people. As such, they never invest, lose out on the benefits of it, and don't teach their children how important investing is to move up the ladder. It's this paradoxical ideology that continues to keep them down.

Champ Bailey said:

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Poor kids.

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Nu uh

Go stand up and tell kids in a underachieving school district that they are dumb and less intelligent than others, and then come back to me and talk to me about being condescending.

The primary point that was disagree with: intelligence is not strongly tied to genetics. I provided you a study which more or less proved that. You've provided nothing.

I provided you a Stanford study that showed kids school performances is directly tied to the median income of the family.

https://www.nytimes.com/2015/12/18/upshot/rich-children-and-poor-ones-are-raised-very-differently.html

Do you accept the data that says we aren't born all dumb or smart (95% of us), and that income has a massive impact on a kids test scores? Or do you really think the majority of kids in good school districts inherit smarter brains from their parents? That's the only issue I have with what you are saying.


Honestly, I don't even know why we are arguing. I was watching a documentary made in the 80s with Dan Aykroyd and Eddie Murphy. This was settled then.

evan_aggie said:

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Go stand up and tell kids in a underachieving school district that they are dumb and less intelligent than others, and then come back to me and talk to me about being condescending.

The primary point that was disagree with: intelligence is not strongly tied to genetics. I provided you a study which more or less proved that. You've provided nothing.

I provided you a Stanford study that showed kids school performances is directly tied to the median income of the family.

https://www.nytimes.com/2015/12/18/upshot/rich-children-and-poor-ones-are-raised-very-differently.html

Do you accept the data that says we aren't born all dumb or smart (95% of us), and that income has a massive impact on a kids test scores? Or do you really think the majority of kids in good school districts inherit smarter brains from their parents? That's the only issue I have with what you are saying.


Honestly, I don't even know why we are arguing. I was watching a documentary made in the 80s with Dan Aykroyd and Eddie Murphy. This was settled then.

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Right, but his point is that reducing it to money is a dishonest argument. It's not like if a lower class individual wins the lottery, that his kids will become overachievers. It's parenting. A parent that places importance on education will tend to do better in life, and usually have a child that succeeds as well. But most lower class people don't, and in my experience they tend to mock their peers who do.

I 100% entirely agree with this comment and view point. Money and money redistribution solves ZERO after the fact. It boils my blood that I'm taxed out the *ss and see it spent on ridiculous programs and social wastes that don't target the root of the problem.

My major gripe and principle distinction is that the vast majority of kids aren't born stupid or less able to learn or intelligent.

Champ Bailey said:

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evan_aggie said:

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Go stand up and tell kids in a underachieving school district that they are dumb and less intelligent than others, and then come back to me and talk to me about being condescending.

The primary point that was disagree with: intelligence is not strongly tied to genetics. I provided you a study which more or less proved that. You've provided nothing.

I provided you a Stanford study that showed kids school performances is directly tied to the median income of the family.

https://www.nytimes.com/2015/12/18/upshot/rich-children-and-poor-ones-are-raised-very-differently.html

Do you accept the data that says we aren't born all dumb or smart (95% of us), and that income has a massive impact on a kids test scores? Or do you really think the majority of kids in good school districts inherit smarter brains from their parents? That's the only issue I have with what you are saying.


Honestly, I don't even know why we are arguing. I was watching a documentary made in the 80s with Dan Aykroyd and Eddie Murphy. This was settled then.

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Right, but his point is that reducing it to money is a dishonest argument. It's not like if a lower class individual wins the lottery, that his kids will become overachievers. It's parenting. A parent that places importance on education will tend to do better in life, and usually have a child that succeeds as well. But most lower class people don't, and in my experience they tend to mock their peers who do.

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yep. that was the point of my little crab joke.

Let's say you have a 5 year old. They have a birthday party. You have 15 kids come over. You can't tell that one little (remove sex for PC warriors) is extremely bright and one (again see how nice I am) is just a little slower?

So my very smart friend that is now a research scientist at a health facility making lots of money wasn't born smarter than me? My friend that wasn't real bright but had 2 very involved parents failed him as he had the same sponge as the scientist kid but it wasn't utilized as it should?

Come on want to know why I ran distance and not the 100? Because God didn't give me the extreme flexibility and large muscles to get up to high speeds quickly. He gave me lungs. Why did my sprinter buddy not run distance?

We arent created equal in any form. Society can try to balance all it wants and it will never happen. Key is find what you are good at and go for it. Our problem with society(education) is our Disney mentality. Everybody can be smart and just maybe I'll race Bolt one day. We continue as a society to be over educated and under qualified. Add to it we feel if we dream it it has to be reality.

Bitter has a point. Most people of similar kinds gravitate to each other. Slower obsorbing sponges tend to like to be around SOS. Bring all the studies you like but remeber many of them are conducted by "dumb" people. Just because you have a degree doesn't make you smart. My mechanic may be the smartest guy I know. Smart is Finding where you excel. I don't think we are all born with the same sized sponge. I guess we are back to the same old point does size matter or how you use what you have?

rather be fishing said:

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Normal people can't afford to live in Eanes ISD.

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Yes they can but they rent apartments. I work in the Westlake Area and there is a certain demographic that values the education on their children over owning a home.

Turf96 said:

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Let's say you have a 5 year old. They have a birthday party. You have 15 kids come over. You can't tell that one little (remove sex for PC warriors) is extremely bright and one (again see how nice I am) is just a little slower?

So my very smart friend that is now a research scientist at a health facility making lots of money wasn't born smarter than me? My friend that wasn't real bright but had 2 very involved parents failed him as he had the same sponge as the scientist kid but it wasn't utilized as it should?

Come on want to know why I ran distance and not the 100? Because God didn't give me the extreme flexibility and large muscles to get up to high speeds quickly. He gave me lungs. Why did my sprinter buddy not run distance?

We arent created equal in any form. Society can try to balance all it wants and it will never happen. Key is find what you are good at and go for it. Our problem with society(education) is our Disney mentality. Everybody can be smart and just maybe I'll race Bolt one day. We continue as a society to be over educated and under qualified. Add to it we feel if we dream it it has to be reality.

Bitter has a point. Most people of similar kinds gravitate to each other. Slower obsorbing sponges tend to like to be around SOS. Bring all the studies you like but remeber many of them are conducted by "dumb" people. Just because you have a degree doesn't make you smart. My mechanic may be the smartest guy I know. Smart is Finding where you excel. I don't think we are all born with the same sized sponge. I guess we are back to the same old point does size matter or how you use what you have?

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1.) no God at work in my book. It's science.
2.) Lung size does not really have anything to do with being a short or long distance runner.
3.) some of my best friends are mechanics. I'm a commodity manager in the largest semiconductor in the world. I'm also a blue collar worker in the National Guard - and that's where most of my friends are. Some are not smart but are good people. I gravitate towards good people. Your points are your own viewpoints and you have already said you will pretty much discredit a study that someone brings to the table proving you wrong. That's also called something, maybe about be obstinate and refusing to see another viewpoint? That mindset won't get anyone very far in life.

I'd also like to see studies of kids that went to involved households early on versus parents who are "dumb" to see if it refutes your "we aren't all born equal." Anecdotal evidence based on someone I know craps on that mindset. Little boy, adopted by a good friend. Kiddo has a mom who had her kids taken away, lives in poverty and didn't graduate high school. Little boy is one of the smartest kids in his class in a very competitive private school. By some accounts in this thread, he is a dumb kid with a "sponge" that isn't as equal as some of the other kids based on genetics coming from his biological parents.

decision

emando2000 said:

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rather be fishing said:

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Normal people can't afford to live in Eanes ISD.

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Yes they can but they rent apartments. I work in the Westlake Area and there is a certain demographic that values the education on their children over owning a home.

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Fair. I meant to say normal people can't buy a house in Eanes ISD.

I kinda lost faith in some people when discussing the fact our kids go to private school, and I got the "well, we can't afford that" speech. Then they climbed into their 7 series BMW and drove away. True story.

Holy crap I missed this incredible thread. Well, sit down and let me tell you guys a few insights.

Background:
1. I have kids.. like 8 of them (yes I'm Catholic) But that is a whole other topic.
2. We are not well off by any means, yet we have prioritized education and have sought out the best for our kiddos which means Catholic school followed by public middle school/high school. Our kids go to a very urban Catholic school, just 2 blocks from the state capital. It has been described as a "little prison" by a friend of mine because of all the fencing to keep transients in check. All 8 have gone through St. Mary's.
3. We sent the oldest to Kealing MS, follwed by LASA. A word or two about both; I liked the diversity, but the kids are actually quite separated by the type of classes they take. She went on to Rice. Was she gifted? I'd say she only knew one way and we set the bar high.
4. We moved from South Austin to Bastrop County (out in the boonies) - The next 2 went to Cedar Creek HS (a brand new school) and did quite well - one just graduated from TAMU-CC and was accepted to grad school; was offered a full time job at the Financial Aid office; she accepted and will work and go to school. The other is a Junior at TAMU College Station (kick'n ass).
5. We moved again, buying an old house in historic Bastrop. BISD started a new HS in which the students attend HS and take college courses at ACC Elgin. My next 2 are going there (Colorado River Collegiate Academy) and are on track to graduate HS with a diploma and 2 YR Associate degree (60 college credit hours, all paid for by BISD).
6. The next 3 are still at St. Mary's. We drive 1 hour every morning. They will attend CRCA.

Nuggets:
1. Did I say we hold the bar high? We do. Kids can do more. We and I do mean us as citizens, have let the youth of our country down by not making academic achievement more important than athletic achievement.
2. I disagree with the OP to the extent that what I got from him is that it is cut and dry, black and white, you are either "smart" or "dumb". For us it has been my experience that there are certainly some naturally smart kids, we had 1 (the first one). She had a photographic memory and tested very high. However - school is not that hard - you HAVE to do the homework and turn off the TV (digital screen).
3. Parents have to do more. My mom did as much for me, I went to TAMU on an academic scholarship and the GI Bill.
4. Underachieving schools affect ALL of us. We need to pay teachers more, like a lot more. We need to emphasize at an early age the importance of reading. A nun, smart one, told me that if your child is not reading at a 5th grade level by the 5th grade - you need to take drastic measures.

I share this not to rant or brag- but to say that for me it is hard work to raise kids and push them to do homework. I had a very simple rule- never miss homework- period. If I ever found out one of my kids did not do their homework - I brought the hammer down! I told them how hard is it to just write your name on a blank sheet of paper?

One more thing- Robin Hood is good thing.

+GIG'EM!! (I gotta go- have tickets to see "Solo")

BOM making sense again