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Deer Management Question

3,717 Views | 42 Replies | Last: 20 days ago by schmellba99
SanDiegoAg12
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9:34p, 10/30/24
AG
The other thread about doe restrictions changing for some counties got me thinking.

I'll be going out to visit my parents for the upcoming Deer opener and am debating my dad on whether he should shoot more does.

We're hunting on a little over 250 acres outside of Livingston and over the past decade, he's shot maybe 2 doe and 6 or so mature bucks. He runs corn year round in 6 feeders and will occasionally plant a food plot or two.

He claims he doesn't see enough Doe to warrant shooting one but he also doesn't hunt very hard. They also seem to come out in droves later in the season when the season closes and the rut dies down.

Anyone interested in sharing their opinion on managing does on that size tract?
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SanDiegoAg12
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9:37p, 10/30/24
AG
Another note. His Nieghbor on one side has 200 acres and usually shoots one or two mature bucks and few if any does.
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Yesterday
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9:49p, 10/30/24
AG
Bucks like Does. But they also like to eat. And does eat.

That said I'm not sure you can manage much on 250 acres. We're on 315 and unless we get all of our neighbors on the same plan it's not going to do anything.
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RM76
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9:58p, 10/30/24
AG
Without going into a long discussion of carrying capacity, habitat, and buck/doe ratio, there is not a lot you can do management wise with regard to deer populations on 250 acre. However it is generally accepted that the buck/doe ratio in east Tx is out of wack with too many does and too few mature bucks. Therefore in general, many more does should be taken than are currently being harvested.
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Gunny456
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In reply to SanDiegoAg12 • 10:00p, 10/30/24
AG
Ideal buck/doe ratio is considered to be 1/1. Examine your doe/fawn ratio as well. Put up game cameras to try to get a relative estimate of your population.
You can also get in touch with your local TPWD biologist and he can get you some population dynamics for your county.
Very hard to manage for anything consistently on 250 acres unless you have very large acreage neighbors that are on a managed lands plan.
For generalities in most of Texas the doe/buck ratio is usually much higher than the 1:1 model. (Lots more does than bucks)
Maybe also talk to your neighbors and inquire about sited doe numbers.
Also he is doing little good nutrition wise feeding corn year around. Corn is a carb and low in protein ( less than 6%). Carbs are for building fat in the winter. Detriment to feed straight corn during hot months. Feed protein during warm months and corn/ protein mix during cooler months…..unless all you are trying to do is use corn for bait.
Try your best to try and gather some buck/doe ratio data from….. game cameras out year around, data from your local biologist, your own field observations throughout the year….that way you can make at least a educated decision on your doe/buck population…. going into it with the assumption you really have more does than bucks probably.

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SanDiegoAg12
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In reply to Gunny456 • 10:23p, 10/30/24
AG
Very informative post (along with the others).

I like the idea of contacting TPWD for some data. I've also recently bought him 6 cameras and have access to the uploads so I'm doing some rough counts.

I also brought up the idea of talking with neighbors but it falls apart when "Billy's nephew's friend comes out and shot an immature buck".

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Gunny456
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In reply to SanDiegoAg12 • 10:36p, 10/30/24
AG
Understand on the neighbor issue. But you can have general discussions on how many does they kill and learn from that.
East Texas deer are known for going nocturnal when heavy hunting pressure starts. Does are just as wary as bucks. So checking cameras should give you some decent info…. especially if you check them throughout the year.
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SanDiegoAg12
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In reply to Gunny456 • 10:47p, 10/30/24
AG
I just emailed the local biologist and asked for what data he could provide.

I agree on the neighbors. I'd say approximately 80% of 5,000 acre section is hunted by the owners so they will hopefully lean in to trying to collaborate and work together to improve things.

And 100% to the nocturnal thing… I hunted there for 8 years and if you don't get a shot at a large buck on opening weekend, it was unlikely you were gonna get another opportunity!
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Gunny456
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In reply to SanDiegoAg12 • 10:49p, 10/30/24
alvtimes
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11:38p, 10/30/24
Man am I feeling this thread…. low fenced 200 acres… not too much hunting pressure on all 4 side… big landowner on north side no hunting, 800 acres on south side no hunting. By a quick count we have harvested 24 doe in the last 3 seasons and hasnt seemed to make dent. Late summer after fawns dropped it seems every doe bringing out twins and a few trips. We feed corn yr round from only 2 feeders and only 3 second spins. Cotton seed from usually March to beginning of Oct…… Im not really trying to run off does but wow are we swamped with does trying to equalize our ratios.
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BlueSmoke
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9:02a, 10/31/24
Are there abundant natural food options? Lots of acorns, etc? Could be why they're not hitting the feeders as often. At the end of the day it's about attracting as many does as you can and not pressuring them too much. Besides corn, you can look into protein and cottonseed in addition to food plots.

How's your water situation compared to your neighbors?
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HTownAg98
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In reply to alvtimes • 9:08a, 10/31/24
alvtimes said:
Man am I feeling this thread…. low fenced 200 acres… not too much hunting pressure on all 4 side… big landowner on north side no hunting, 800 acres on south side no hunting. By a quick count we have harvested 24 doe in the last 3 seasons and hasnt seemed to make dent. Late summer after fawns dropped it seems every doe bringing out twins and a few trips. We feed corn yr round from only 2 feeders and only 3 second spins. Cotton seed from usually March to beginning of Oct…… Im not really trying to run off does but wow are we swamped with does trying to equalize our ratios.

Want some help?
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CrocsAg20
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9:30a, 10/31/24
AG
How do yall decide which does to shoot? I'm in Lee County so we only have the special 4 day season. But we have a bunch and I'm looking to thin a few out
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Gunny456
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In reply to CrocsAg20 • 9:36a, 10/31/24
AG
We try to age them as best as possible by body indications. Similar to bucks…. and take out older mature does. We also see if they perhaps have fawns or young yearlings with them and pass on those.
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CorpsTerd04
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9:49a, 10/31/24
AG
I would just leave the doe's alone. Not really going to make a difference for you.
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SockDePot
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In reply to Gunny456 • 10:08a, 10/31/24
Gunny456 said:
We try to age them as best as possible by body indications. Similar to bucks…. and take out older mature does. We also see if they perhaps have fawns or young yearlings with them and pass on those.


I generally do the same.

However, I read an article years ago, I'm sure could be googled and posted, basically saying you're better off either shooting the first one that walks out, or the young ones. Basically the rationale is that you want to keep the older does because they've proven they successfully reproduce and raise to maturity. The studies show that left to their own devices, the does reproduce successfully past 10 yrs old. Also, if you're shooting to reduce population/ save resources, an old doe and young doe consume the same. Therefore, shoot the young ones.

That being said, I haven't been able to bring myself to do it…
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SanDiegoAg12
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In reply to SockDePot • 10:16a, 10/31/24
AG
No disagreement, but how do you know a deer reproduces successfully by being older?

She could be a horrific mom!
*sarcasm but the underlying point hopefully comes across.
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SockDePot
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In reply to SanDiegoAg12 • 10:39a, 10/31/24
I guess maybe you seen them with presumed offspring?
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SanDiegoAg12
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In reply to SockDePot • 10:53a, 10/31/24
AG
I can see that. I have two does on camera always together so you can obviously see that she's a mom.
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agsalaska
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11:11a, 10/31/24
AG
One thing to add

I generally disagree with the idea that you cannot manage a doe population on a few hundred acres. I used to thin that until we started hunting on our farm and not on a lease. We have two fairly large herds of doe that never go more than maybe a quarter mile in every direction. We have crossfenced off about 100 acres that borders water and those deer back there never leave. I mean never. Other than when they are running from a buck they don't leave the 100 acres all year. We have doe that are 8-10 years old that have spent all but maybe 30 days of their lives back there. Between the two herds there are probably 60-75 doe.

So unless there is some kind of external pressure, whether human(most likely) or maybe hogs, they won't go anywhere as long as there is a good food source.

Bucks are obviously a different story.

To answer the other question, I always shoot more doe than bucks, generally because I have those two herds and also because I know so many people don't.
The trouble with quotes on the internet is that you never know if they are genuine. -- Abraham Lincoln.



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ghollow
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11:23a, 10/31/24
AG
I read a study a while back that stated that does generally only range a quarter mile to a mile from where they were born unless they are chased off. Bucks generally range over about 2000 acres most of the year. Once rut starts, their range can increase to 6,000 to 10,000 acres if there are no barriers to hinder them.

We generally see more bucks than does. It wasn't always that way. Now we try to take a doe for every buck we shoot.
So the greatest civilization is one where all citizens are equally armed and can only be persuaded, never forced. It removes force from the equation... and that's why carrying a gun is a civilized act.
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RM76
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In reply to agsalaska • 11:44a, 10/31/24
AG
Just curious, how many acres are those 60-75 does on? What is the location and is it bottom land or upland?
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agsalaska
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In reply to RM76 • 11:58a, 10/31/24
AG
The herd that sits completely still is about 25-30 doe and it is about 100 acres or so. Bottom land/river frontage. Lots of pasture oaks and pecans. One of the prettier spots in the area. The other herd is another 30-40 that generally live in the top pastures but they do cross over into the bottom pastures to graze and socialize. They also jump a fence on to our neighbors place who shoots a couple of them too.

There is another herd up by the front gate that we never shoot. They are used to seeing my uncle every day and are pretty docile. The further back into the property you get the wilder the doe are. Entire property is about 500 acres including a skinny strip owned by a neighbor. 400 is ours and 100 is his. mushroom shaped property with the gate at the narrowest part and the bottom being the top half of the fat part on top.

We shoot about five doe a year between us and him and 2-3 bucks.

. And anywhere from 60-100 head of cattle roam the place, but we do keep them out of the bottom starting in October through January. And when the river is really low.


edit- marrying a farmer's daughter was smart.
The trouble with quotes on the internet is that you never know if they are genuine. -- Abraham Lincoln.



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Gunny456
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In reply to SockDePot • 12:35p, 10/31/24
AG
My roommate worked at the YO as a biologist in the late 70's through the 80's. I was involved with him doing some research there along with some co-op with KWMA where they studied the effects of fawns and yearlings losing their moms early and if it effected their growth, reproductive age etc.
They found some pretty strong evidence that those young deer losing their mom early in life did appear to affect their growth and maturity times.
The YO adopted a practice to only kill does very late in the season to minimize that effect.
In managing our ranch we tried our best to stare step our ages of does we killed….. trying to not just kill one age class but spread it out over all age classes.
Does can quit taking after breeding multiple times just like dogs, horses, donkeys etc. Things can happen after multiple breedings that can cause a doe to no longer conceive.
We confirmed that fairly regularly on our ranch as we would definitely have older does that no longer produced fawns….. but we found that could also be the case on younger does but it seemed very rare.
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RM76
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In reply to agsalaska • 4:38p, 10/31/24
AG
Well, 60 to 100 deer on 500 acres is 5 to 8 deer per acre. Not sure where this is located but the best carrying capacity in Tx in the best habitat is about 10 deer per acre with many places at 25 or greater. Without some serious nutrient management you might need to be taking more deer with the goal of approaching a 1/1 buck/doe ratio.
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agsalaska
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In reply to RM76 • 6:15p, 10/31/24
AG
Na man. After observing them for the better part of a decade I am pretty sure the herd is perfectly healthy. About as healthy as it gets.


Also 100 deer on 500 acres would be one deer per five acres. Not 5-8 deer per acre. Maybe that helps?


Edit to add- I have always felt like we could shoot more doe than we do. Tht is true. Probably cull off several of them. But the population itself is very healthy. We will have dozens of fawn and I will probably lay eyes on two dozen legal bucks over the next month. There is very little that needs to be done in our neck of the woods.
The trouble with quotes on the internet is that you never know if they are genuine. -- Abraham Lincoln.



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RM76
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In reply to agsalaska • 8:51p, 10/31/24
AG
Sorry, got distracted while typing. Yes that works out to 5 to 8 acres per deer . . . most unusual.
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agsalaska
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In reply to RM76 • 8:56p, 10/31/24
AG
We are headed down in the morning and will be in the blind by tomorrow night counting deer. I will get a more accurate count.

I do agree that it is somewhat unusual. But doe staying put is certainly not.
The trouble with quotes on the internet is that you never know if they are genuine. -- Abraham Lincoln.



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Big Bucks
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8:03p, 11/1/24
AG
OP, shoot at least one doe a year on that property. Good eating and won't hurt the population a bit, will probably help it actually.
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S.A. Aggie
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In reply to SanDiegoAg12 • 9:54p, 11/1/24
AG
What did the deer survey say about your ratio?
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agsalaska
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In reply to RM76 • 9:28a, 11/2/24
AG
RM76 said:
Sorry, got distracted while typing. Yes that works out to 5 to 8 acres per deer . . . most unusual.


So in the bottom we counted somewhere between 17-22 doe and about 12 bucks. But a couple of those doe could have been spikes.

Strangely nothing at the front gate but the neighbors across the road have let their pasture get overgrown so they were probably all back there.

Will count the middle herd this aafternoon. I feel like there were less up there and more down here yesterday.

The trouble with quotes on the internet is that you never know if they are genuine. -- Abraham Lincoln.



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philevans
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In reply to Gunny456 • 3:54p, 11/2/24
AG
1/1 ratio inapropriate.
1/2 ok
1/3 best.
natural mortality happens.
TXlic GIGM61
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SGrem
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6:50p, 11/2/24
1 to 1 is what you want.

Most places you can't shoot enough does to achieve it.

That is to say they don't have enough people pulling the trigger year in and year out to get there....

I am a shooter if anyone needs animals down. And I'm fun around the campfire....and I have lots of equipment to put to work....just sayin.
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Gunny456
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In reply to philevans • 8:45p, 11/2/24
AG
Would have to disagree and agree in some ways. Natural mortality is higher for bucks than does. Lots of biologists suggest an even higher buck/doe ratio than 1:1.
But at 1:1 the competition is greater among all bucks so you have more broken tines and antlers and injuries due to more fighting.
1:1 is almost impossible in todays smaller free range acreages. Your 1:2 or 1:3 is probably more of a realistic goals now, albeit not what's taught.
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Gunny456
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In reply to SGrem • 9:05p, 11/2/24
AG
Grem. Always enjoy your knowledge and post. You would be welcome around my campfire anytime sir.
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