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Paragon Pipeline

11,721 Views | 114 Replies | Last: 5 yr ago by O.G.
Sooper Jeenyus
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In reply to Burdizzo • 2:42p, 1/23/19
AG
Burdizzo said:
Sooper Jeenyus said:
Burdizzo said:
Sooper Jeenyus said:
eric76 said:
Ragoo said:
Gunny456 said:
The pipeline company has sent a booklet out to landowners making them aware and procedures to follow if a leak should occurr.
In this booklet they say that a 48"
Gas pipeline could effect a radius of 3/4 mile should an explosion occur. If that happened during a typical windy dry day during the summer in the hill country it would be catastrophic and the environment would not be "just fine" imho.
when was the last time a pipeline exploded?

Let's set a side the emotion okay?
Here's one from just a tad over two years ago:

I'm aware of one that exploded much more recently.

Having said that, it's still the best way to move product from A to B.


I agree it is safer than rail or highway.

My problem is the abuse of ED and the unavoidable kick in the groin to property rights.
Separate issue.

Eminent Domain (assuming that was your reference ) is a double-edged sword. We all want the things those rights-of-way provide but no one wants their individual property rights infringed upon.


Separate but not unrelated. The issues are intertwined. Property owner is forced to encur a devaluation of his property and be compensated in today's dollars for an encumbrance that can last in perpetuity. No one has a crystal ball to know what the property will be worth in several generations (assuming it does not leave the family), but if future generations continue to own familial land there is no way they can get compensated for lost property value appreciation.

I have always felt like easements for things like energy utility ought to have additional conditions:
1. An expiration date that forces the user and fee owner to renegotiate periodically like a lease.
2. A value placed on the commodity that travels through the easement (ie. $/MCF, $/bbl, $/acre-ft, $/KW-h). That way the property owner gets a beneficial compensation for the long term over the forced encumbrance. This too should be required to be renegotiated periodically.
I do not own land which has subsequently been used for a pipeline ROW; so, I won't speak as though I'm an authority on the arrangement. That said, a couple thoughts:

1. The property owner is not necessarily forced. I'm guessing (I don't have the data) most property owners enter into a voluntary agreement for the land use and are not subject to ED.

2. Is the property actually devalued?

3. The property owner does reap a financial gain by allowing the ROW to cross their property. And, this agreement can be in the form of a termed lease, can it not?

4. Future value goes both ways (re: property and commodity being transferred). If I agree to allow my land to be used today for X fee, future generations are out of luck. They're lucky to beneficiaries of the land inheritance.

I agree the issues are intertwined and I'm certainly open to being educated on the subject. But my original point is still prescient. We all want the things the ROWs provide: transportation, communication, energy, etc. I don't want my property rights usurped any more than the next guy. But, let's assume your proposed expiration date condition is in effect. What happens when, after 100 years have passed and thousands (or maybe millions) of people/entities are reliant on a ROW, one property owner decides they no longer want to renew the lease? Is the greater good reason enough to justify ED on the one property owner? Or, do individual property rights prevail?

Again, double-edged sword. Not a fan of it, but do you believe it's EVER justified?
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Burdizzo
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2:53p, 1/23/19
AG
The highway department rarely buys easements for roads. They usually buy property fee simple because they use the land in perpetuity and essentially only for roads. Utilities may use the same ROW but only by permit of the ROW owner.
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schmellba99
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In reply to Burdizzo • 3:21p, 1/23/19
AG
Burdizzo said:
schmellba99 said:
Burdizzo said:
Ragoo said:
Gunny456 said:
The pipeline company has sent a booklet out to landowners making them aware and procedures to follow if a leak should occurr.
In this booklet they say that a 48"
Gas pipeline could effect a radius of 3/4 mile should an explosion occur. If that happened during a typical windy dry day during the summer in the hill country it would be catastrophic and the environment would not be "just fine" imho.
when was the last time a pipeline exploded?

Let's set a side the emotion okay?


Would you build a house on top of a pipeline?
Would you build your house on top of a drainage ditch? What about a sewer manhole? Would you build your house on top of one of those? What about in the middle of a field that floods all the time because it's swampy and low, would you build your house there? What about on a dry creek bed, would you build your house there?

Seriously, what kind of question is this?


It is a question pertaining to why it is such a good thing to have a pipeline easement crossing your property that may or not add value to it.
Why is it such a bad thing to have a pipeline easement crossing your property that may or may not add value to it?

It's like anything else - the devil will be in the details, and each individual situation is unique from one another. Some good, some bad, but you can't lump every one into the same either/or category.

I get not particularly wanting one or lobbying for one on property, don't get me wrong. But sometimes the mentality here is that they are the equivalent to a nuclear waste dump or something and will absolutely turn your property into a wasteland of nothing.
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sunchaser
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3:24p, 1/23/19
eric76
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3:25p, 1/23/19
AG
I detest Eminent Domain and would love to see the practice ended. It reflects a distrust of Capitalism and Free Markets.

One local farmer/rancher who I think owned several hundred sections in Oklahoma and Texas hated Eminent Domain far more than I do. He was an expert at dealing with it to such a degree that pipeline and power line operators hated dealing with him. I've been told that there is one place where a power line runs right up to his land, makes a right turn, goes around that land, and then continues on.
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schmellba99
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In reply to Burdizzo • 3:27p, 1/23/19
AG
Burdizzo said:
Property owner now has diminished use of his property. If that isn't decrease in value, then we have nothing further to debate.
Not always.

In my neck of the woods, pipelines through heavily wooded areas increase the use of the property by opening up grazing land that was not there prior to the pipeline, farmers still farm over pipe easements all of the time, the pipeline on our lease will add additional hunting opportunities for us, and the landowner negotiated improvements to his roads as part of the agreement for the use of the ROW.

All are increased use of the property versus what was there prior.
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Burdizzo
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In reply to schmellba99 • 3:51p, 1/23/19
AG
schmellba99 said:
Burdizzo said:
Property owner now has diminished use of his property. If that isn't decrease in value, then we have nothing further to debate.
Not always.

In my neck of the woods, pipelines through heavily wooded areas increase the use of the property by opening up grazing land that was not there prior to the pipeline, farmers still farm over pipe easements all of the time, the pipeline on our lease will add additional hunting opportunities for us, and the landowner negotiated improvements to his roads as part of the agreement for the use of the ROW.

All are increased use of the property versus what was there prior.


Point taken.
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aggiedent
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3:54p, 1/23/19
AG
Quote:

Quote:
Ragoo said:
it won't add value, it isn't an improvement. But the boogie man that it will drastically decrease value is way over stated. Especially on property that is generational. Value is just a number at that point.


Most land that is generational didn't get that way by the owners letting people run roughshod over them.

I wanted to comment on this and a number of posts that are arguing over the effect of land valuation and usage.

I just don't understand this idea that if land is generational then it shouldn't matter if the land is devalued. I own lots of things of value that are generational that I will never sell, but I still don't want to see any of those things devalued. They won't stay in the family forever. Nothing ever does. Thus... I want to protect it for future generations. Your view is totally alien to me.

As for value, anything that restricts your land usage is going to potentially reduce the value of your land. Obviously it will be more significant on smaller properties. A few posters have brought up that ROWs will open up access to other parts of the land for the owner. OK, but I can tell you from personal experience that it also has an unintended effect. Power transmission lines run through our property in East Texas. The cleared lane is so wide that it does provide nice shooting lanes. But it has also invited trespassers. Every time we check a game cam, we see somebody where he shouldn't be. Hell, we even caught a guy putting up his own game cam on our property.

The moral being every positive seems to have a corresponding negative.

Strictly my view, but I'd rather not have anything on my land.
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BrazosDog02
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4:27p, 1/23/19
AG
My neighbor or happens to have a pipeline going in now but I'm not sure if it's this one y'all are talking about. They were offered a paltry sum to dig up their place. They got an attorney. Now, the dea around our relatively large acreages is that we are exclusively wildlife exempt. So, cutting a swath of trees out is not an option. The attorney not only got them a crap ton of money he also managed to force them to "bore" and lay that pipeline. I have no clue how that works but I'm going to watch. Either way, the surface will not be impacted on their place due to the wildlife data they have submitted and documented over a decade. At least that's the way I understand it. Someone with more knowledge may have to correct me.
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OnlyForNow
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In reply to BrazosDog02 • 4:44p, 1/23/19
AG
The company agreed that a bore of directional drill was worth it through this property.

Not much else to say, lots of factors could have gone into it but without specifics hard to tell.

Where is your neighbor's land?
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BrazosDog02
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In reply to OnlyForNow • 5:21p, 1/23/19
AG
OnlyForNow said:
The company agreed that a bore of directional drill was worth it through this property.

Not much else to say, lots of factors could have gone into it but without specifics hard to tell.

Where is your neighbor's land?

Waller County. I just thought it was cool that they could even do it. Pretty impressive.
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Burdizzo
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5:28p, 1/23/19
AG
Boring, tunneling, and directional drilling are pretty common for utilities. They do it all the time to cross under highways and rivers. It is just more expensive than traditional open cut construction. Someone probably figured out it was cheaper to bore under protected trees than to replace them and/or pay a fine.
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ChemEAg08
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6:09p, 1/23/19
AG


Thought this would be relevant to those worried about pipelines on their land...
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eric76
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In reply to BrazosDog02 • 6:43p, 1/23/19
AG
BrazosDog02 said:
My neighbor or happens to have a pipeline going in now but I'm not sure if it's this one y'all are talking about. They were offered a paltry sum to dig up their place. They got an attorney. Now, the dea around our relatively large acreages is that we are exclusively wildlife exempt. So, cutting a swath of trees out is not an option. The attorney not only got them a crap ton of money he also managed to force them to "bore" and lay that pipeline. I have no clue how that works but I'm going to watch. Either way, the surface will not be impacted on their place due to the wildlife data they have submitted and documented over a decade. At least that's the way I understand it. Someone with more knowledge may have to correct me.
I've wondered how far they can bore without having to go up to the end of the bore and continue the bore from there.

I have a cousin who makes good money doing that in several states but I only see him about once a year. I'll ask him the next time I see him.
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Your Friend
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6:56p, 1/23/19
"Pipelines devalue my property!", said the pipeline farmer who's land pays for itself every 5 years when a new line is installed in his corridor.
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Your Friend
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In reply to eric76 • 6:58p, 1/23/19
eric76 said:
BrazosDog02 said:
My neighbor or happens to have a pipeline going in now but I'm not sure if it's this one y'all are talking about. They were offered a paltry sum to dig up their place. They got an attorney. Now, the dea around our relatively large acreages is that we are exclusively wildlife exempt. So, cutting a swath of trees out is not an option. The attorney not only got them a crap ton of money he also managed to force them to "bore" and lay that pipeline. I have no clue how that works but I'm going to watch. Either way, the surface will not be impacted on their place due to the wildlife data they have submitted and documented over a decade. At least that's the way I understand it. Someone with more knowledge may have to correct me.
I've wondered how far they can bore without having to go up to the end of the bore and continue the bore from there.

I have a cousin who makes good money doing that in several states but I only see him about once a year. I'll ask him the next time I see him.


You can HDD for miles if you had to
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evestor1
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7:11p, 1/23/19
Drill length is determined by a lot of factors such as size and earth composition and elevation changes.

I've been around several over 10k ft.
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jrbaggie
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7:21p, 1/23/19
Been many a good deer killed on a pipeline. Just saying.
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Burdizzo
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In reply to jrbaggie • 7:33p, 1/23/19
AG
jrbaggie said:
Been many a good deer killed on a pipeline. Just saying.


Some of the hunters had permission to be there too.
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Sgt. Hartman
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3:44a, 1/24/19
AG
Reading this thread makes me believe that the pipeline companies will have just as much trouble stealing land from the current owners as the owners' ancestors had stealing land from the Comanches and the Mexicans.
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Doc Hayworth
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In reply to Sgt. Hartman • 7:08a, 1/24/19
Just as they stole from the ones here before them and from each other.
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Enviroag02
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7:31a, 1/24/19
AG
I used to work for a midstream company. It seemed like we were always paying significantly more for ROW when groups of neighbors, who knew we needed their property, banded together to increase their leverage and negotiating power and make it tougher to file eminent domain. That should be obvious...
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OnlyForNow
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In reply to Enviroag02 • 7:43a, 1/24/19
AG
Don't give away all the secrets!
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evestor1
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8:46a, 1/24/19
If we are giving away secrets

Step 1 - Buy Cows
Step 2 - Wait for open ditch
Step 3 - Push cows in ditch
Step 4 - Pretend the cows were worth millions
Step 5 - Retire!

Or

Step 1 - Give access via old caliche road
Step 2 - Require Gas Company to wash all cars before entering and leaving (NO EXCEPTIONS)
Step 3 - Tell Gas Company you will be the was station
Step 4 - Wash trucks
Step 5 - Profit

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Enviroag02
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In reply to evestor1 • 12:51p, 1/24/19
AG
haha good stuff. The cow one happens ALOT!
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Your Friend
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12:57p, 1/24/19
And it's usually the prized bull
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KaneIsAble
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1:54p, 1/24/19
AG
Just buy trailer fulls of calves for the ditch project, then send them a bill for what the full size animal would've brought you once you eventually sold them.

That caught me off guard the first time I saw that one happen....
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Burdizzo
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2:06p, 1/24/19
AG
Who says pipelines aren't dangerous?
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Tony Franklins Other Shoe
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In reply to evestor1 • 3:24p, 1/24/19
AG
evestor1 said:
If we are giving away secrets

Step 1 - Buy Cows
Step 2 - Cow dies
Step 3 - drag dead cow to leased property easement
Step 4 - Pretend the cow was your favorite
Step 5 - Retire!


Modified slightly from what I've seen on some sites. Drag marks and all.
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tamc93
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4:57p, 1/24/19
AG
I have seen something similar on crop damage. Ran the numbers one time on damaging a partial row along a road and gave every possible benefit to the land owner (bumper crop, fair ground pricing, tripling it for damages, etc). I think the calculated damage/offer was around $30. Never heard from the guy again.
FJB, FPA, and FAZ
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O.G.
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In reply to Doc Hayworth • 5:21p, 1/24/19
Doc Hayworth said:
Anyone else here get a notice of a possible pipeline from this company. It appears they they want to conduct all types of assessments of the property to include the survey, environmental, archeological, endangered species, etc.
Pipeline is to run from west Texas thru Central, down to Brazoria County.

Is this something me and the rest of my family, that owns adjoining tracts, should hire an attorney for?
In an attempt to actually answer the OPs questions, let me see if I can help.

Full Disclosure, I am in the business, but I am not familiar with where this particular pipeline starts and stops. I do know that it is not the same one that other people are getting emotional about "going through the Hill Country", (Hays, Blanco etc counties) in this thread.

1. Yes, you should hire an attorney. Let me be clear, if you are not familiar with these kinds of issues, you need to at least talk to a professional.
However, make sure that you hire an actual Oil & Gas experienced attorney not some guy out of the phone book. An attorney that is not experienced in this will end up making it worse for everyone. Please re-read that. Your wife's cousin that does intellectual property rights is not an oil and gas attorney....I have seen that particular movie before.

2. Survey does not have anything, what so ever, to do with construction. Meaning, if you add a bunch of stipultions and restrictions for a survey crew, that have nothing to do with survey, you are basically giving your attorney more work, for which you will have to pay. Belive me when I tell you that the ambulance chasing attorneys are taking full advantage of some landowners on these pipeline projects. Never ever, not ever, agree to let an attorney have any money over a certain amount: Ie: "I get anything over $550 a Rod". You will get ripped off.

3. The main survey stipulations you need to be concerned with are:
Proper notification before they come to your property. (48-72 hours is standard), but they should also be able to work with you should you be out of town etc. Gates found closed need to be closed when they leave etc. You can put all relevant survey restrictions on 1-2 pages, max and realistically, you shouldn't even need that much

They (survey and land agent) will need to know the entry points of your property (what is your actual address? Is there a combination lock? Key pad?) Do you have cattle? Dogs? The land agent that contacts you will need your phone number at some point becuase, even if you have an attorney, at some point when they do come to your property, they will need to get ahold of you.
Do not just say, "Call my lawyer" becuase each time they call your lawyer, its costing you money.

4. A lot...A LOT of your questions can not be fully answered until survey happens. "Are they going to cut down my trees?"....for instance, is a post-survey question. The line may shift half a dozen times in your area and there is no realistic way for the agent to know if they are going near your favorite tree at that point. Survey will have be be done, and possibly re-done before they can answer that.

5. Once Civil and Environmental survey are done (Archeological may or may not happen on your specific land) the land agent should have a more exact route.

6. Denying survey will not stop the project. I have heard this myth a lot. It is not true.

7. If you wish to fight the project, that is your right, but be very careful who you choose as your attorney. I have literally had to explain the process to some attorneys (usually from Austin) before and some landowner is going to get billed for that.

8. Lastly, what ever you are getting paid, you will, or may, have to pay taxes on, (talk to your tax professional...under line and highlight talk to a tax professional, I have seen some bad advice given on this subject before) and an attorney may take 1/3 or so. So, keep that in mind.

Roughly 1/4 to 1/3 in taxes and roughly 1/4 to 1/3 to an attorney. If it were my family I would tell advise them to not hire an attorney but I also come from a family full of people in this business. To someone that it new to it, unfortunately, you will most likely need to get an attorney.

Best of luck to you.
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tlh3842
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In reply to O.G. • 5:32p, 1/24/19
AG
That was a super informative and accurate response.
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HTownAg98
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7:49p, 1/24/19
I haven't been commenting on this because my company is heavily involved in one of the projects. But one thing people need to look into is a 1033 exchange. It's like a 1031, but with much more generous terms. I'm not a tax attorney nor an accountant, but if you are having your property acquired where eminent domain is possible, it's a tool that is available that should be looked into.
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coolerguy12
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In reply to KaneIsAble • 10:35p, 1/24/19
AG
KaneIsAble said:
Just buy trailer fulls of calves for the ditch project, then send them a bill for what the full size animal would've brought you once you eventually sold them.

That caught me off guard the first time I saw that one happen....


No joke, I had a landowner come after me for $70K for a bunch of pigs that never existed and trees we cut down when the easement specifically gave us rights to shred the trees. He sent us screen shots from the local hardware and grocery stores to justify the price of the lumber and pork. We ended up paying $6000 just to shut him up. Would have much rather gone to court with him.

Anyone worried about a mean old pipeline going through your property with eminent domain I highly recommend you work with them to avoid ED. I have seen my company lay a lot of extra pipe to follow propert boundaries at the land owners request to avoid ED. All those extra rods add up at $1100/rod. That being said, on a large project like this one they are going to condemn plenty of people so if you're too picky they will just pick their own route and send you your court date. ED may suck but you can get more money and less impact by working with them.
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AggieFabricator
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In reply to Mas89 • 10:42p, 1/24/19
Mas89 said:
Because once you have one or more pipelines on your property you will have perpetual problems with roads, gates, fences and unwanted mofos on your property. It gets old real fast.


This guy knows nothing, I work in operations/automation for a startup midstream company in Fayette Co and we literally have crews of graders and street sweepers visiting lease roads, pads, etc. it's all about the type of company your doing business with and the contract.
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