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Pistol challenge inspired by robbery thread

13,448 Views | 103 Replies | Last: 6 yr ago by BenderRodriguez
'03ag
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Consider some Talon grips if you don't already have them. I just got granulate texture for my P320 and can't wait to try them on the course. But I can tell a major difference just holding the gun. I think it will be a big help with managing recoil for more accurate follow up shots.

I'd really like a belt but I'm trying to wait. More important things to spend the money on right now. Like more guns.

Here's an Aggie friend of mine going over his belt setup.

BenderRodriguez
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BreNayPop said:

Just did my first uspsa match here locally this am... i am apparently terrible at shooting. The sponsored guys were silly good. Everyone was very nice, but i have no doubt i was slowest there- but no DQ and no rules broken.

Awesome!! Glad you enjoyed it.

GM level guys are spooky good.

Hope you keep shooting matches.

txyaloo
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I've been running the granulate grips on my EDC for a few years. Makes an amazing difference. The only downside is they tend to catch on my shirt. I run an RTF2 Glock for training. Really helps with sweaty hands
'03ag
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I couldn't do the granulate on my EDC. I had the rubber texture on my old XDs and liked that.

Nice thing about the P320 is I can have a dedicated grip module for competitions. Large frame plus granulate grips on the course. Medium frame and no tape in the house in case the wife needs to use it.
CharlieBrown17
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I know we've discussed this all before but I couldn't find a thread about it so I'm bumping this.

Already have a gun belt, buts what are a few good enough to start holsters and mag pouches? Mostly concerned with shooting USPSA or Steel Challenge, but being legally for IDPA as well would be a plus. Will be shooting Single Stack.

How many mags on belt is bare minimum and what is a more is better recommended number?



Also, is the international $15 better than the QB, if yes then why?

http://www.comp-tac.com/competition-holsters/qb-10573

http://www.comp-tac.com/competition-holsters/international-holster-10241

BenderRodriguez
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It's not halloween yet, and here you are raising zombie threads.

No experience with the QB, but from the pictures it looks like a more traditional carry set up for a kydex holster, where the entire slide is enclosed on both sides past the trigger guard. The International is cut down on one side at the ejection port and will likely be easier to draw from quickly.

Comp tac or bladetech both make good magazine pouches. I've done the whole cheap mag pouches from fobus thing once and it's worth the extra money to get a secure, quality pouch if you're going to be running and gunning.

IDPA usually recommends a minimum of 3 (one in the gun and two on the belt) per stage, USPSA I'd want 5 for shooting production or single stack.

The more magazines you can bring the better, honestly. Sucks having to reload or top off every single mag between every single stage. Mark them with your initials and a number using a sharpie or paint pen so if you starting having troubles with one magazine you can ditch it or fix it. When you start dropping them on the ground at matches monthly, magazines can start to have issues.

BenderRodriguez
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And since this thread was bumped, here's some gopro footage of me shooting a falling steel match a few weeks ago.

This stuff is fun, yall. Try it.

CharlieBrown17
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Yeah any thread I went with was going to be a pretty good bump but this one had a good number of different posters so I went with it
BenderRodriguez
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CharlieBrown17 said:

Yeah any thread I went with was going to be a pretty good bump but this one had a good number of different posters so I went with it

yeah, interest didn't seem there so I didn't try to keep them up top.

Still working out the timing for a free class for texags folks who may be interested, looking at early next year maybe.

jabberwalkie09
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I have the international, decent holster that I've used for USPSA and IDPA. Also have their mag holster as well. Decent enough setup, just make sure you're aware of how the holster can be setup between the two (I think IDPA doesn't let you do offset, but USPSA does).
CharlieBrown17
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Their webpage explains which is legal in which category, thanks for looking out though
CharlieBrown17
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I'm really disappointed I ended up in Mississippi all summer on late notice and couldn't make it up your way.

I should find out late Jan/early Feb how long I have from graduation to actually getting to my first base. So hopefully I can fit some in this summer.
BenderRodriguez
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Sounds good, let me know.

I was just responding to someone else in an email that Nov/Dec are pretty busy for me, but I should have some time again starting in Jan/Feb if anyone wants to come shoot.

CharlieBrown17
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I'll let you know if I can make it that for a weekend then. Should have gear ready to roll by then
cledus6150
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I am thinking about getting a ruger 22/45 to plink with and maybe do a few steel challenges, are there any modifications to the gun like optics or the volquarsen accurizing kit that would not allow me to shoot in matches? Or do they have different divisions for 22's as well?
BenderRodriguez
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cledus6150 said:

I am thinking about getting a ruger 22/45 to plink with and maybe do a few steel challenges, are there any modifications to the gun like optics or the volquarsen accurizing kit that would not allow me to shoot in matches? Or do they have different divisions for 22's as well?

The only steel challenge break up for .22 is by sighting system/compensators into either open or irons.

So if you add a red dot or a compensator to your 22/45, you'll be placed in Rimfire Open division. If you use iron sights, you'll be in Rimfire Irons.

I shoot Rimfire Irons with a 22/45 that has a VQ trigger/sear in it.





cledus6150
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Thank you sir, I guess now the decision is do I buy a threaded one or not so I can use my suppressor at home.
BenderRodriguez
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Had to find this thread for a reply in another one, so I'm bumping it.

Go shoot a match.
BCStalk
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So the wife and I typically only do range days and I have always been a long gun guy but would like to get more into pistols. Any recommendations? Would be starting out with an XDM 9mm with a red dot because my eyes and iron sights don't get along. Really just don't know where to start. Any suggestions would be appreciated.
jabberwalkie09
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BCStalk said:

So the wife and I typically only do range days and I have always been a long gun guy but would like to get more into pistols. Any recommendations? Would be starting out with an XDM 9mm with a red dot because my eyes and iron sights don't get along. Really just don't know where to start. Any suggestions would be appreciated.

Not Bender but I believe that Optic guns are going to put you straight into open for USPSA and enhanced service pistol for IDPA I believe.

If it's what you have practiced with, then go with it. Just be well aware you will be shooting against yourself/wife for awhile until you learn the rules and get used find a rythym with shooting, moving, and reloading.

Though, if you have a gun without an optic i would consider shooting stock service pistol or limited just to learn for awhile. Then decide on a class and gun to focus on,
BCStalk
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Problem with stock is I've tried several rear sights and nothing helps my eyes focus past them
jabberwalkie09
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BCStalk said:

Problem with stock is I've tried several rear sights and nothing helps my eyes focus past them

Even solid black with a fiber optic front sight that's red or green?

A couple more questions, is the gun you carry mounted with an optic? Do you want to get into competition shooting to compete or for ltc/chl practical experience?
BenderRodriguez
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BCStalk said:

So the wife and I typically only do range days and I have always been a long gun guy but would like to get more into pistols. Any recommendations? Would be starting out with an XDM 9mm with a red dot because my eyes and iron sights don't get along. Really just don't know where to start. Any suggestions would be appreciated.

Absolutely. I can give you some drills and things to work on by yourself at the range if you don't feel that you're ready to shoot a competition yet.

If you're in Central Texas, you're always welcome to shoot with me. I teach pistol stuff to OBers for free because yall are such a cuddly bunch.

If you think you're ready for competition I can give you some gear recommendations, some advice about the rules and help you find a match close to you.

Just let me know what you need.



BCStalk
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Definitely not ready for competition but would like to in the future. We go to the range every weekend so any drills would help. We are limited to paper targets at the range we go to.
BCStalk
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My main gun is actually just a XD mod2. It's stock sights and I don't have an issue under normal conditions. I mainly have issues when the sight distance increases. It's almost impossible with iron sights on a rifle for me. Weird but its something I just have to deal with unfortunately. My main goal is to complete with my wife. It's just something we both would enjoy.
BenderRodriguez
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Bumping an old thread.

I've been teaching classes most weekends lately, and haven't been competing like I used to. Shot an IDPA match this weekend, and it showed that I've been doing classes instead of competitions. My accuracy was close to where it needed to be, even with me shooting very little in most classes. My draws, reloads, movements, and transitions were not nearly as smooth or fast as they used to be. I finished 5th in my division, 20th overall (out of 40 shooters, so solid middle of the pack mediocrity). Pistol skills are highly degradable, and mine have degraded. I need to do a better job of balancing teaching classes and taking them/competitions so I'm still someone worth taking a class from in the future.

The fun thing though despite my mediocre shooting is that I managed to get a couple of stages filmed both with my go pro and with a camera phone, so thought some who are tempted to try matches but want to get a feel for how shooting a stage goes would appreciate a walk through of a couple of IDPA stages.

Finishing uploading some video and stuff now, follow up post to come. Can also do a quick post on required gear if there is interest, but thought some might want to see a stage broken down, rules explained, etc so that'll be the next post.
BenderRodriguez
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This post is for folks who have never shot a match before and want to be walked through the thought process for a stage. If you have any specific questions I don't answer, feel free to ask.

Most matches consist of 5-6 stages. IDPA matches have lower round counts than USPSA matches. Both require not just shooting, but drawing from a holster, movements, and reloads. IDPA requires you shoot from "concealment", meaning a covering garment like a photographer vest or a long shirt. As you'll see in the video, I just use a big unbuttoned 2XL shirt as my concealment garment when I shoot IDPA.

The first thing to understand about pistol matches like IDPA/USPSA/Steel challenge is that they're looking for a combination of accuracy and speed. How IDPA does this is by adding time to your "raw time" for the stage depending on your accuracy. Here is an IPDA target:



Notice that the two small circles in the head and torso have a 0 in them, with areas on target but outside of those smaller zones having numbers like 1 and 3. Cardboard targets in IDPA and USPSA require (usually) two hits to be considered properly engaged. If both hits are in the 0 zone, no time is added to your raw time for the stage. If you have one 0 hit and one 1 hit, 1 second is added. If you have one 1 and one 3 hit, 4 seconds would be added to your time. If you miss the target completely, 5 seconds would be added to your time.

This way, if you go flying through the stage but hit nothing but 1s and 3s, while someone else goes slower than you but hits nothing but 0s, despite you finishing the stage faster, they will have a better score. Speed and accuracy are BOTH important.

There is one more type of target used: a non threat target that looks like this in IDPA:



A hit on a non threat target is a 5 second penalty to your time. Non threats are usually placed close to threat targets to reinforce the need for accuracy.

So with scoring/targets explained, here is what you usually see as you walk up to an IDPA stage:



This stage guide shows you your starting position, position of targets, and any special conditions for the stage. For this stage, instead of the typical 2 rounds required per cardboard targets, T1-T4 required 3 scoring hits, and T5 required 4 hits on the torso and one on the head to be scored.

*disclaimer-the following two paragraphs should only be worried about after you've shot a few matches, don't worry about it as a beginner, just wanted to show you where you can go with it as you continue to shoot*

This is where it gets interesting and part of why I like competition so much. The gun I shot this match with is a CZ P-09, which falls into the SSP division. Mag capacity in SSP is limited to 10 rounds in the magazine at the start, which means if I start the stage with one in the chamber I have 11 rounds before I need to reload. One of the (sillier, IMO) rules of IDPA is that you cannot drop a magazine with rounds left in it to the ground. If you reload before the magazine is empty, you must retain the magazine. This takes time, so most people prefer to shoot to slidelock and empty a magazine, then reload. The problem with this is that if I shot 11 rounds hitting the 3 required per target, I would need to do a flat footed reload in the middle of shooting target T4. I try to avoid reloading unless on the move between shooting positions, because if I can do both required things at once that cuts down on the total stage time. Any time spent standing there reloading is time I'm not shooting or moving to the next shooting position and it slows down my time. So my game plan for this stage was shoot the required 3 rounds at T1, then shoot 4 times at T2 and 4 times at T3 which allows me to reload while moving to position P2 to engage T4, cutting down on stage time. I chose to shoot the additional two rounds at T2 and T3 because I would be engaging them further away than T1, so one more shot gives me one more chance to shoot those targets cleanly as the best 3 shots will be scored.

This is what makes competition valuable: Now as I shoot this stage, the shooting portion itself (sight alignment, trigger control, reloads) is relegated to the near subconscious level, as I'm actively counting shots per target and observing if I've made good hits and if I need to change my plan to take a make up shot on T1 when I start. Training your brain to handle the mechanical manipulations required to shoot well while you observe the people and situation around you are highly, highly valuable skills for anyone who is going to consider carrying a gun in public. This to me is the greatest value to be gained from shooting competition: learning to shoot at the lizard brain level so you can think during a situation, observe and react properly to a changing and chaotic environment around you.

Here is the other stage shown in the video:



This one requires you to start carrying an object and shooting strong hand only for the first three targets, before putting down the car seat/fake baby and finishing the course of fire. This stage forced a flat footed reload. In the video, you'll notice I fire 3 shots at T5 to reload between targets instead of halfway through one. This is just to help prevent me from making a mental error by putting one shot on T6, reloading then moving on to T7 without putting a second shot onto T6. I still had 3 rounds left by the time I got to T5, but I was observing the strong hand only targets and if needed would have used it on an earlier target to try and make up for a bad trigger pull. Again, we're back to relegating the mechanics of pistol shooting to a lower level function to increase observation, which is a valuable skill hard to learn in any other environment.

This post is too long, so I'll put the video of my running through these two stages and an explanation of what you're seeing in the next post.


BenderRodriguez
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You can see from the gopro footage a little easier why I decided to take the extra shots at T2 and T3 in the first stage as I was explaining in the last post: they're further away than T1 or T4, and allow me to at least complete the reload while moving to engage T4...though my reload started flat footed. Combination of rusty reloads and the short distance between the two shooting positions. You'll also notice that despite T5 only requiring 5 shots total, I take 6. This is because I noticed my first shot on the head was outside of the 0 scoring area, and attempted a make up shot.

The big take away (for me) from the second stage on video is my flubbed reload. You can see I don't get the magazine properly aligned immediately, and it slows me down. Like I said, too much teaching lately, and not enough competitions. Pistol skills degrade, and my reloads got worse when I wasn't practicing them as regularly as I used to.

I hope the video shows you the skills you can gain from trying out competition that you simply won't get from static range practice: learning to think, receive new information and adapt to it while shooting, reloading, moving and drawing from a holster under pressure, shooting from non static positions, etc. The video doesn't show it, but you will learn how to quickly fix malfunctions as you compete too if/when your gun doesn't go bang like you're expecting.

As I said over a year ago, I strongly encourage anyone who carries a gun for self defense to try out competition. It will help you gain a better understanding of your abilities with a pistol under pressure situations and improve your shooting. Keep in mind I finished middle of the pack on this day. There were plenty of people who outshot me, and plenty of people who shot worse than me. If you think you're a better shooter than I am who hasn't competed, you owe it to yourself to test yourself under competition pressure, or if you think you're a worse shooter than I am it certainly shouldn't stop you from coming out and trying it. As long as you're safe, no one will care how fast or slow you are...we're just happy to see you out competing.

If you don't have the equipment to compete, I have spare everything. Come shoot a match with me.

reddog90
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Thanks for the write up. I went and watched my first uspsa match last week. I walked through the stages and tried to think how I'd shoot them and then compared that to each shooter. It was a good time even though I didn't shoot. I plan to watch or shoot idpa next week.

What is your holster setup for SSP? Can I shoot a stippled 19 with night sights? What about slide milling? If the milling rules it out I have a stock VP9 but I'll have to get some kydex for that.
BenderRodriguez
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reddog90 said:

What is your holster setup for SSP? Can I shoot a stippled 19 with night sights? What about slide milling? If the milling rules it out I have a stock VP9 but I'll have to get some kydex for that.

I like the Comp Tac international as a general "try this first" holster for competition if they make one for your gun. Legal for IDPA or USPSA, affordable, decent holster.

Stippling and after market slide milling isn't allowed in SSP. Just go ahead and shoot the gun in ESP instead if you want to shoot your 19, or a factory VP9 should work for SSP.

herbie
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for an intense weekend of defensive shooting take Tom Givens' Combative Pistol course. 2 day weekend course over 500 rounds and lots of instruction. there is NO BS with Tom
reddog90
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What holster and belt do you run?
Some Junkie Cosmonaut
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herbie said:

for an intense weekend of defensive shooting take Tom Givens' Combative Pistol course. 2 day weekend course over 500 rounds and lots of instruction. there is NO BS with Tom


where is he located? looking for somewhere to take courses in the dallas area.
herbie
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Tom has classes all over US will have to find when he is in your area. my class was taught at the Orange gun club range.
http://lazytoad.com/fuzzy/comb-pist-1.html
BenderRodriguez
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reddog90 said:

What holster and belt do you run?

I have used stuff like the wilderness 5 stitch for matches before when I can't use a dedicated inner/outer belt set up.

For this match I just used the Magpul Tejas leather belt I carry with, a comp tac international holster and an esstac double pistol mag kywi pouch.
 
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