coolerguy12,

When I got the repair kit for the Marvel Schebler TSX carb (like on your Farmall), I recall it including a new needle and seat. If you've got even a small nick on one of those, your mixture is probably going to be rich, which may be causing some of your problem.

The parts were pretty cheap on the internet, as I remember.

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Oh, and momma is gonna be pissed when that tractor exhaust blackens the inside of your garage door.

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You've got to give coolerguy credit, if she didn't say anything about the oil on the garage floor of his damn nice house, she won't sweat a little black smoke on the ceiling.

I only wish mine were so 'understanding'.

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Oh, and momma is gonna be pissed when that tractor exhaust blackens the inside of your garage door.

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You've got to give coolerguy credit, if she didn't say anything about the oil on the garage floor of his damn nice house, she won't sweat a little black smoke on the ceiling.

I only wish mine were so 'understanding'.

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Momma understands that the garage is my domain. I don't tell her how to decorate the kitchen and she doesn't tell me how to run my shop. As long as she can park in there at night she is happy.

Update: compression check is 85-90 across the board. I can still get it running but the exhaust seems excessive. After running it for a couple minutes it gets much harder to restart. The plugs get very black and are very wet when I pull them. I adjusted the idle screw while it was running and I didn't get much response from it. The throttle is working its just a very delayed response.

I'm getting pretty close to telling the guy to come pick it up because I'm tired of it being in my garage. I would say I'm about 85% better off than I was when I got it but that last 15% is killing me.

Don't give up. You're right there - it's just running too rich, that's why it floods, fouls the plugs, blows black smoke, and won't start. There's just too much fuel.

You mentioned you adjusted the idle screw, that's one of the two screws that should be on the carb. Most have an idle and a load screw. If the Load or Main mixture is rich it will still flood at idle. I think of the idle as a fine adjustment that sets the idle mixture but the Load adjustment is coarser, bigger, and sets the mixture for then engine under load. If you haven't adjusted it then I suggest leaning it out.

I know the last thing you want to do is mess with the carb again, and I don't think you should have to - but if you decide to here is my procedure. I disassemble the carb and put it in a bukcet of cleaner to set overnight. I take out all the set screws (noting their settings), plugs, everything. The next day I get some mineral spirits and air hose and blow out every tiny passageway I can find in the housing and then reassemble; preferably with a new needle, seat, and gasket set so I don't have leaks. As simple as these carbs are - one little blocked passageway can cause headaches.



AHH, a thought - real quick before I hit post.
The intake is unobstructed right? If you are running without the air cleaner hooked up that's fine, it's just tough to set the idle smooth without the air cleaner providing some restriction (not your problem here). If your air cleaner IS hooked up, it is flowing isn't it? I've seen oil bath and element type filters be completely stopped up in tractors that you would never suspect. Just a thought because too little air = too much fuel. DON'T QUIT.

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I'm getting pretty close to telling the guy to come pick it up because I'm tired of it being in my garage. I would say I'm about 85% better off than I was when I got it but that last 15% is killing me.

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Man, I know it's easy for me to say since I've no skin in the game, but I'm with Centerpole.

You've worked too damn hard to let it go now. I assume the owner is covering your parts costs. Order the kit for the carb (make sure it's the right kit - the model number should be stamped on the body) and try that before you run up the white flag.

You never know -- the needle and seat that are in there now may be the wrong parts that the guy prior to you mis-ordered.

FWIW, I've had projects where I finally had to cut my losses. It's never win at all costs, except in the movies.

He is paying for parts. I did the carb kit but never cleaned it like center suggested in a cleaner bath so I'll try that.

The owner mentioned that he had issues in the past with mud dobber nests so he said to check the intake. I pulled the oil bath filter and cleaned it out but I never shot a light up the intake. I really hope I find something there.

Owner is available to come get it after the 4th so I have a week and change to knock it out. Thanks for the encouragement and advice guys.

This thread has been a great read. Hope you figure it out. Nothing better than fixing something everyone else gave up on and then feeling like this:

I don't know if these will help, but they are from my M's operating manual. I'd guess it is probably similar.

Took apart and soaked the carb 24 HR in carb cleaner. Cleaned the plugs and made sure fuel was flowing. The tractor started great first crank and sounded awesome for about 5 seconds. Then it bogged down and died. Exhaust got black when it died. If I loosen the air hose to the carb fuel drops out of it. I know my needle is working so I think it's just sucking up too much fuel and "flooding" that way. The only adjustment screw on the carb is right by the fuel inlet and I believe does the idle mixture. The whole intake system is clean and it has new oil in the oil bath.

Wife is napping on the couch so I have plenty of time to try any troubleshooting you guys throw at me.

http://www.tractorbynet.com/forums/parts-repairs/58788-4-cylinder-gas-engine-updraft.html

This is exactly my problem. Carb has all new parts. Only thing I might be having a problem with is the needle sticking in the hole and not dropping down. But I'm sure I don't have a sealing problem when it's pushed up. Ill check float level I guess. This has to be the 15th time I have pulled this carb.

Just realized I forgot to hook up the throttle to the carb. I decided to play with it by hand and cranked it up. The damn thing was throwing smoke all over the place but by god she was running. I finally got it shut down and was unable to get it to run again with the throttle hooked up.

When it's attached it's always in the closed position so maybe that's what's choking up my air flow. I have read a little on these throttles but not much. I guess I'm about to get a crash course in 1945 throttle technology.

Okay. Let's kick this thing's butt. (red face for it, not you)

Don't worry about the needle sticking that way because all it will do is run you out of gas, besides the weight of the float should pull it back down in operation.

We've got to stop it from flooding and my suggestion would be to close any adjustment needles all the way. Shut it off (not the valve under the tank, we want fuel to the bowl) and let's see if we are getting too much fuel through passages gas SHOULD be coming through, or if it's coming from somewhere else. With the needles all closed off it should not start or flood - then slowly start opening them until it hits.

What make/model carb is it? Can you post a couple pics of the outside? I see the bowl pictures, but I'm curious if it looks like Log's.

We posted same time. If you can take a pic of the throttle side of the engine, where the throttle linkage goes to the governor and all. That exhaust cylinder thingy is unhooked isn't it?

Carb side where the governor links to the carb butterfly valve. Exhaust lift is not hooked up.


Linkage to carb butterfly valve. Shown is the only adjustment screw.


Magneto side showing where the throttle lever hooks to the governor. When I move the throttle lever I get no change on the butterfly valve. Not sure if that's by design or a problem in the governor. When I did have it running I would get slight adjustments out of moving the throttle lever but not much.



Running the tractor earlier woke up momma who is 5 months pregnant. If you guys don't hear from me again it was nice knowing you.

The linkage from the butterfly to the governor has no movement even if I try to force it. Is it possible I need to rebuild the governor? I'm reading online it should have a spring but I'm not getting any evidence of that.

I really doubt that your governor is causing the flooding - although I admit that usually the 'rest' position is the butterfly open and then once the engine starts to spin the governor closes the throttle to slow the engine down. That's why Farmalls will race a little when they first fire.

Before I tore the governor apart, I'd rather take a coat hanger and fashion a makeshift throttle rod to control by hand. or unhook it up there where it pins to the gov and play with it by hand.

I'm most concerned where all the gas is coming from. IF the float isn't sinking, and the float is set at the right height, and the choke is not closed, and the idle needle isn't too open, and you have no big vacuum leaks - you SHOULD not be flooding. The gas is coming from somewhere. Either a restriction on the intake side is causing it draw excess fuel out or the bowl is running over into the intake; it has to come from somewhere.

Best I can tell that's a Marvel Schebler TSX type A carb. It has the idle adjustment only.

It only floods after the tractor turns over so I don't think it's a float/needle issue. Could it be that the fuel is being sucked up the jet but is blocked by the butterfly valve and drops back out of the air flow into the intake?

When I read about adjusting the governor they say you unhook the linkage, move the throttle handle to full throttle and then thread the linkage to make it match. When I move the throttle handle I get no movement on the left side where the gov links to the carb.

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I'm most concerned where all the gas is coming from

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It's not a ton of gas. I'll open the intake and the puddle on the floor is about 4" across. It's not a full intake hose pouring out.

I guess what I meant by 'all the gas' is the gas that is flooding and killing the engine. If you bypass the governor by taking that cotter pin out on the throttle side, can you make the engine run to your satisfaction without flooding if you manage the throttle by hand?

I see that someone has already monkeyed with the governor a little. Isn't that a nut on the magneto side in front of spring? If so, that's not factory, it appears they would put that there to tighten up the throttle response from the operator to the carb by compressing the spring more.

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It only floods after the tractor turns over so I don't think it's a float/needle issue. Could it be that the fuel is being sucked up the jet but is blocked by the butterfly valve and drops back out of the air flow into the intake?

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I can see that; and the lack of air would explain the rich mixture, wet plugs, & black smoke.

The carb side is really jenky. I'm going to get into the governor to see what I find.

It runs with a "hand throttle" but still not well. I think it's just a timing issue. It won't run with the throttle hooked up to the governor.

Good deal. I was trying to isolate the problem, but if you're happy with the way it runs disconnected from the governor, then it's time to start adjusting on that!!

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Running the tractor earlier woke up momma who is 5 months pregnant. If you guys don't hear from me again it was nice knowing you.

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First, congratulations! Second, unless you've already got a high dollar life insurance policy on yourself, methinks you're safe. :-)

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It only floods after the tractor turns over so I don't think it's a float/needle issue. Could it be that the fuel is being sucked up the jet but is blocked by the butterfly valve and drops back out of the air flow into the intake?

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This is even starting to frustrate me. I can't imagine how you feel.

OK, I've got a couple of things --

1. Just to eliminate any possibility of it being a float/bowl problem, can you put a pair of vise grips on the fuel line just as it enters the carb and then start it?

If it's not the float/seat/needle, it should die in 5 seconds, just like before. If it runs until the bowl runs dry, you know what to do.


2. Is there any chance that under vacuum (after starting) you're sucking fuel in through a small crack or hole in the bowl, or maybe around the main jet seat? Gravity alone wouldn't cause a leak, but a strong vacuum might.


You did say that if ran well for the first 5 seconds, though, right?

I've mentioned before that he should fill the carb, then shut the fuel valve under the tank, then try it. It should start and run on the gas in the bowl for quite a bit. If it starts to die, turn the valve back on for a second, and back off if need be.

I'll try shutting the fuel off while its running. Better yet I might fill the bowl and then just disconnect the fuel line entirely.

I'm convinced it has to be a problem with the throttle linkage. It ran like a boss with me controlling the throttle disconnected from the governor. Right now the throttle butterfly never moves no matter what the throttle position is. It's always shut.

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First, congratulations

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Thank you very much. Baby girl coming in November. Hope she likes playing in the garage...

I can't see that the throttle is the problem. I think with the throttle closed, it's getting way too much gas and flooding, and by manually opening it, it leans out enough to run.

If the governor is not working the throttle butterfly, that's a separate problem.

This has been annoying me, and I think some of these below have been mentioned before. I Googled a few sites for old tractors, and some of the same suggestions kept coming up, so, I'm going to spitball here, and sorry for the repeat and rehash of things you've done.

Speaking of butterflies, is the choke open and secure, where it does not flop closed when the engine starts?

Is the float floating? Leave it in a jar of gas overnight, see if it is still buoyant, and shake it and listen for gas inside the float.

Is the float binding? If the float pivot pin is worn, the float might be scraping the side of the bowl. My favorite cure for this I found online was to place a block of wood on the carb, then wack the wood with a hammer.

Is the fuel and the fuel passage in the carb absolutely clean? The least little grain of rust can hold the needle off the seat.

Is the seat (of needle.seat) firmly installed into the carb? This was a new one on me, but lots of folks claimed that seat needed to be firmly screwed in, and some even planed the flange where the seat installed, claiming it had warped. I seem to recall the seat had a gasket, is it there? And some folks added gasket sealer to it.

One other trick I saw mentioned, was to "seat" the needle. If the needle has a neoprene end that fits the seat, some of the old guys claimed you ought to tap the needle lightly into the seat to "set" the end of the needle to conform with the seat.

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Better yet I might fill the bowl and then just disconnect the fuel line entirely.

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Is there not a shut off valve under the tank? The Deeres had those, lots of folks killed the tractor at night by starving it of gas. I do that now, just to keep stale gas from gumming up the carb.

Good luck, and congrats on the coming little one.

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I can't see that the throttle is the problem. I think with the throttle closed, it's getting way too much gas and flooding, and by manually opening it, it leans out enough to run.

If the governor is not working the throttle butterfly, that's a separate problem.

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I'm 90% sure it's not working so I want to mess with that first.

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Speaking of butterflies, is the choke open and secure, where it does not flop closed when the engine starts?

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Choke is open and ridged. Takes enough force to move the lever I'm confident it's not moving itself.

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Is the float floating? Leave it in a jar of gas overnight, see if it is still buoyant, and shake it and listen for gas inside the float.

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I have held it under water and get no bubbles. I have dried it and checked for gas coming out a pin hole. No gas inside it. The carb does not flood until I try to run the tractor.

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Is the float binding? If the float pivot pin is worn, the float might be scraping the side of the bowl. My favorite cure for this I found online was to place a block of wood on the carb, then wack the wood with a hammer.

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I don't think so. When it's removed I'll flip it over while blowing in the fuel line and it shuts off. The only problem is sometimes the needle stays up but that would starve it of gas

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Is the fuel and the fuel passage in the carb absolutely clean? The least little grain of rust can hold the needle off the seat.

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I soaked it 24 hours in carb cleaner. It's as clean as I'll ever get it. All the passages I can see pass the flashlight test.

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Is the seat (of needle.seat) firmly installed into the carb? This was a new one on me, but lots of folks claimed that seat needed to be firmly screwed in, and some even planed the flange where the seat installed, claiming it had warped. I seem to recall the seat had a gasket, is it there? And some folks added gasket sealer to it.

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Gasket is installed. New needle and seat.

One other trick I saw mentioned, was to "seat" the needle. If the needle has a neoprene end that fits the seat, some of the old guys claimed you ought to tap the needle lightly into the seat to "set" the end of the needle to conform with the seat.

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Better yet I might fill the bowl and then just disconnect the fuel line entirely.

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Is there not a shut off valve under the tank? The Deeres had those, lots of folks killed the tractor at night by starving it of gas. I do that now, just to keep stale gas from gumming up the carb.

There is a fuel shut off but I figure this way the gas in the line can't flood it.

I don't get it

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I don't get it

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I thought it was obvious.

"I'm baffled."

Now you see the level of intellect you are working with. I stared at that picture longer than I care to admit.

Now you see the level of smart@$$ that you're working with.