Sorry, you're scooting outside my range of expertise. I will say the wire coming off the magneto the right, with the blue insulating sleeve, is probably the kill switch.

Well. That is interesting. I'm sure you've gathered from the comments here that the combination of an external coil with a magneto is very uncommon. I did find a thread on a website earlier today where users were talking about external coil conversion for magneto tractors where the coil IN the mag failed. Since your's has been disconnected I wonder if that is exactly what you have here.

Everything bellow is wild a@@ speculation because I've never messed with that particular mag - but here's what I THINK could be, based on what I can see in those pictures. I'm going to refrain from typing 'in my opinion, or I think, or as well as I can see' so that it doesn't get too long. Please understand it is implied and I am spitballing.

Where the wire is going out of the side of the mag, was at one time a lug with a nut on it. It was insulated and that lug went was where you could attach a wire, that when grounded to the frame, killed the spark. It could have been a button there, but something that shorted the system. That being so, I think the wire you are asking about tucked in between the end of the condenser on the side nearest your screwdriver in the top pic. It would have been insulated by a washer from the frame of the mag. When all that was shorted out by something hooked to the lug it out killed the circuit. Now, if the coil failed and someone wanted to use an EXTERNAL coil the thing they would have done is provided power right where that coil did - and what do you know - we have a handy little lug here (kill terminal) to do just that. The external coil was then wired INTO the case in about the same spot that the old coil was wired in - right behind that insulated lug. Voila, you have now essentially converted that magneto into a distributor, and all the old impulse parts, coil, and things that made it a Mag have been bypassed.

IF that's the case, you have to wonder why it was bypassed to start with - so it's possible it's kaput without a coil. Won't know till you try. Try it both ways, but look the insulation over where the lug on the side of the mag chassis is, I read that they can short there over time. Put that baby in a vise and get pair of pliers to turn the lugs, because trying to overcome the impulse will wear on your hands after a few turns.

Boom.

Dang, after watching this video I feel like I need to go to Vegas. I'm a good guesser tonight, that appears to be wired exactly like I thought for the conversion. Since you've put in a 6v battery you just need to make sure you're voltages are all correct and your external coil is good. Oh, and YOU WERE CORRECT, you're ignition switch needs to be closed to send power to the coil since you effectively have a distributor not a magneto.


Now, ribeye - what about that SA200 your dad had you working on. Red face or black face? Did you get it sold? I'll start the bidding at a $20 and a Snicker bar.

I'm going to try to put it back as a magneto set up and leave out the external coil. I figured the nut on the side of the mag is a kill switch because it has insulation from the mag wall around it. So if that screw grounds I'll get no spark.

The reason the mag is still there even with battery drive is that the mag also spins the distributor. I would love to put this back to stock though.

Any ideas on the black wire that is internal with the coil? There is no where obvious it hooks to. Best guess is it should hook to the "kill screw" to ground the coil.

Edit: just recead Centerpoles and it appears that's correct.

Thanks for all the help guys. I can't wait to post a video of this cruising through suburbia.

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the mag also spins the distributor.

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Say what?

Everything you said there is correct, the only thing is - why was it bypassed to start with? Maybe it failed, maybe someone thought they could get better fire from the external coil, but either way, for some reason they bypassed it.

I am presuming that there was a wire form the center of your distributor cap to the external coil. Of course, that will have to be moved back over to the internal coil connection.

Hook it up and put the bottom bolt attachment ear in your vise there. Take one plug wire and hold it near the case, then turn the mag with a pair of pliers, or with your hands if you can (it'll hurt after a few times). Remember it's only going to fire 1 out of 4 impulses on each plug.

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the mag also spins the distributor.

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Say what?

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The shaft that spins the mag is the same shaft that spins the distributor.

Center is right, the mag may be toast but I'm going to try to take this back to basics and go from there.

Center, the distributor feed wire (not sure if that's a term) hooked to the external coil. I plan to hook it back to the magneto coil after I confirm the kill switch isn't permanently grounding.

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Any ideas on the black wire that is internal with the coil? There is no where obvious it hooks to. Best guess is it should hook to the "kill screw" to ground the coil.

Edit: just recead Centerpoles and it appears that's

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Frankly, it looks to me like there used to be a stud coming out of the top of the coil, and that black wire used to attach to it.

I'll have to post the inside of the coil cover when I get home. It has a curved brass piece that touches that nub. That's how it gets power from the coil to the distributor. That curved piece goes the the coil cover outlet.

Yes, hook it back to the coil on the magneto when you want to go back to original.

Terminology-wise, so you know where Canyon is coming form, magneto and distributor are mutually exclusive, you have one or the other. What you have is a magneto that has been converted so it acts like a distributor, and you are correctly thinking of that 1/2 of the mag AS a distributor, but most folks would call the whole thing a magneto.

As for the internal wire that came from the coil and was disconnected - I believe it hooks into the capacitor/condenser, whatever that thing is that that lays horizontal, extends through the case (but on the inside). You are correct that all that has to be insulated from the frame of the magneto or it will short everything out and you won't get spark.

That brass nub makes contact with the cap and then the fire goes through there to the center of your 'distributor cap' on your magneto. That's the same fire that would come from the center of your external coil.

So what do you call the metal piece that spins to send a spark to the seperate plugs? That's what I'm calling the distributor. It distributes the spark. Sorry for the confusion.

I am not sure, but if someone added a coil going to battery, the mag coil went out and they used the mag as a distributor. Another thing. If the condenser gets weak or wore, you will never get a spark.

Don't worry about it, but yes, it can add to the confusion. It's the part of the MAG that Distributes the spark EXACTLY like a distributor does! It's very evident how that works on the mag you are working on because it is compartmentalized, but most mags aren't that way. Here is the American Bosch DU2 magneto on my Rumely Oil Pull -



Not as evident that it has a magneto that then distributes the spark like yours; this one is all together. Even more so on the the Wico X or C that were common on 2 cyl John Deeres. From the inter web, a Wico X:



Just the 2 spark plug wires and that's it. So you can see these are OBVIOUSLY magnetos; yours is just configured differently, and on top of that it's been monkeyed with to MAKE it a distributor. You would be hard pressed to do that on most mags.

I hope that's not your girlfriend's phone number on your workbench there. She may not appreciate the publicity.

Yeah, sorry for the confusion. I'm on mobile and it's a little harder to read and watch all the videos. A mag and a distributor are different things. The rotating part on the inside would be a rotor, the cap is the part the wires plug into. Not trying to be a jerk, it just helps if the right terms are used

http://farmall.winnfreenet.com/ignition.php

I'm here to learn. Thanks for the help.

Center, I take notes on my work bench. That's a scooter store in kemah. Still there in case I ever need it again. I have have compression numbers from my S2000 plus some drawings a neighborhood kid did.

Canyon, that link is what started me thinking last night that everything you and I were saying was doubly confusing because it was shaping up like his mag had been 'converted'. I'd never heard of a converted mag until I read that and it caused me to research it more.

This thread maketh me have feeling about rusty iron I shouldn't be having - lest I go get something out of a barn I try to keep locked back, waaaaayyyy back on my priority list...

GP?

Yes. A 1929, IIRC it's from the 203 serial number group, I don't have the number here at the house. They started in '28 @200,000 or a few after that. The '200' serial number group is highly sought after. This one was in the 203 group; early '29.

You fellas are right. The coil is internal on a magneto system, unless the ignition has been 're-engineered.'

It's been about 18 months since I repaired that Lincoln pipeliner for dad and I guess I just didn't remember that. That Fairbanks Morse Magneto cap only had (4) cap wires, not (5).

Thanks for setting me straight.

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Now, ribeye - what about that SA200 your dad had you working on. Red face or black face? Did you get it sold? I'll start the bidding at a $20 and a Snicker bar.

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That Lincoln SA200 Pipeliner was an early model Black Face that still had copper windings (before they switched to aluminum) that dad inherited from his older brother. He used it for a few years to build some nice steel pipe cattle pens and fences, and then he lent it to some 'friends'.

His friends never really felt the need to return it and by the time he finally got it back, he no longer needed it. So it set up for about 10 years in one of his barns.

That's when he calls me in and says to get it running 'good' because he's selling it.

Man, in addition to all the ignition stuff, the fuel tank had to be drained and cleaned, the carb had to be rebuilt and, of course, it needed a battery.

But, when all was said and done, it fired up almost immediately and ran like a top. He got $4,200.00 in December, 2014, but it was mounted on its own custom trailer with a tool box and an oxy/acet tank rack. The tires were shot, but I guess it didn't matter to the guy who bought it.

Now he's got a 150 gallon Continental Belton Skid Sprayer he's decided to sell, but of course, it's been setting up for years and won't start. At least it's just a 7HP Briggs and Stratton.

He's actually given me some time to fix this one. Usually it's - 'Fix it. The man's on his way to pick it up.' :-)

Any takers?

So at this point I'm really hoping the magneto is permanently grounded and it's a simple fix. The guy in the first video mentioned that the mag can be set to spin both directions. Mine is hard to spin one way but spins very easy the other way. I need to check tonight when I get home that the one with high torque is the correct direction. If it's not I think it's safe to say the mag is shot. I think it's more likely the condenser is grounding since it won't spark on the external coil.

I was able to talk to the guy that set it up with an external coil and he said he got it running with that set up. If the mag doesn't do it I'm going to get a new coil and try it out. The reason for the switch is that the mag was giving a very weak and intermittent spark. Is that a grounding issue or a mag coil issue?

I can't really tell you why the spark was weak. It could be any one of several things: coil, condenser, shorting inside (which the guy in the video experienced), or a combination of all those things. It should give you satisfaction that you are deeper in a mag than most folks ever get. They are a mysterious device that makes spark and when they didn't most guys boxed them up and sent them to Jack Chandler at Magneeders to be fixed. Mr. Chandler has passed away and I'm not in the loop who is the go-to guy now besides coolerguy12!

I am not sure what the fellow meant by setting the mag up to turn either way. I guess I didn't pick up on that. I do know that you can only turn your magneto one way to make it start, and that is the 'hard' way. Your magneto should be very hard to turn one way and then all of a sudden POP and be free. As you continue to turn it will come around, get very hard to turn, and then release again. That is the impulse and it's what makes a Magneto a magneto. Here's why,

Obviously early engines did not have batteries so they have to generate a spark somehow. That is done by spinning the magnet very near the coil, but it has to be done FAST to generate electricity. Turning an engine by hand isn't fast enough to generate the spark - so magnetos have an 'impulse coupling' that stores that rotational energy and then releases it just before TDC or spark, to spin the magnet fast enough to create the spark. ( I think it actually ******s the timing some too) Once the engine was running and the RPMs were fast enough the inertia overcame mechanics inside the impulse coupling so they didn't engage; but to START the engine relied on the impulse of the magneto. That is why the mag is hard to turn one way, you have to store all that energy in the springs to get it to flywheel and create a spark. If it's turning the 'easy' way then the impulse is completely bypassed and you won't ever be able to start the engine.



With an external coil that is powered by a battery this is isn't necessary, the battery provides the juice, but when the battery dies.....

I hope it wasn't insulting to go into that much detail - you probably already knew it all anyway, but I had a poster text me yesterday and tell me we were 'geeking out' on the tractor thread and I wanted to give him some more to chew on.

I appreciate any and all information and I honestly had no clue this thread would get so much attention. Tonight is my night to really get to work on it so hopefully it all works out. I'll be sure to post some more detailed pictures of everything so we can geek out some more

is the black wire that comes off the top of the mag coil supposed to be a permanent ground? My wire that comes up from the insulated side of the point is not grounding out (good news) but when I hook that wire to the coil wire with the condenser the whole system grounds out permanently. I think the mag coil might be toast at this point.

We are on the ragged edge of any help I can give, but to answer your question; no, I really don't think it should go to ground from either one of those coil wires. Weren't they both hooked in at the same place there? I think grounding that will definitely kill the spark, that's the same effect the kill switch would have.

Do we know the model of that mag? * found it, H4
hmmm....
http://www.yesterdaystractors.com/cgi-bin/viewit.cgi?bd=farmall&th=953992

Thanks for the link. I'm confident the mag coil over heated and melted all its insulation causing it to ground. Now the question is, get it back to mag with a $50 coil or keep it battery driven with a new external coil? Pros and cons?

All you'll lose by using the external coil is originality. Not a big deal unless you are going for a fully correct restoration - and even if that's the case you have all the time in world to change it back. Using the external is the quicker/easier/getyourunning alternative.

Don't know what your end goal is, but unless you say it's to 'restore it to showroom condition' then I'd get it running as easily as possible. That way we can start diagnosing the next thing!

New coil, condeser, and plugs and I finally have a spark. Next up is to clean the fuel system and see what happens.

I drained the oil and it had a ton of water in it. Should I just change it again after running it a bit to clean it out?

Any weird tricks I need to know about this carb? I haven't even looked at the fuel system yet but it can't be too hard can it? Gravity fed with a carb at the bottom. Easy enough I hope.