I just got this a few days ago so I haven't spent much time on it yet. I checked the wiring connections with an electrical skematic and it seems to be correct. It turns over fine with the starter but I can't get it to spark. It's a 6V positive ground system. Anything obvious I should check while I'm trouble shooting? I hate to start buying new electrical components not knowing if they are good or not.

Coolerguy,

If I'm not mistaken, that Farmall came with a magneto ignition.

I'll confess that until a year and a half ago, I'd never heard of magneto ignition, but when my dad asked me to get his old inherited Lincoln Pipeliner welder trailer running so he could sell it, I had to learn in a hurry.

Basically, you probably need to change (and set with a feeler gauge) the points and condenser, and make sure that the spark plugs and wires don't need replacing.

You're not taking about a lot of money. Some of those screws can be tough to break loose though.

OTOH, I've seen some electronic ignition conversion kits for those old engines, so make sure it doesn't already have that. In which case, forget what I said about points and condenser.

http://www.yesterdaystractors.com/cgi-bin/viewit.cgi?bd=farmall&th=553804

I don't know if the link will come out right, but just google yesterdaystractors.com. The site has forums for all the different tractor brands, and makes for interesting reading. I've learned a lot from it.

It is P&C ignition and as far as I can tell it's the original set up. If the magneto is spinning and my points and condensers are set does that mean it should spark? What's the ignition coil do? Right now I know my kill switch is bad so I'm bypassing that. I believe it should complete the circuit in the on position.

I have been on that website quite a bit the past few days.

Most spark fail issues with old tractors is the points being corroded. I apologize if you've already done this, but if you haven't already:

remove the distributor/mag cap and take piece of emery cloth/rough cardboard/piece of a paper grocery sack/anything slightly abrasive and drag it between the points so that each surface is clean and they make good contact. It is not necessary to remove the points to do so. This is SOP when I've had an old tractor sitting and it won't fire. Hope that helps.

ETA - I'm not trying to discount Ribeye's suggestion to get/set new points - but most of the time they still work, just need cleaning - if that's a no-go then replace is next.

I will try this as the next thing I do. Thanks for the advice.

Fuel and spark; that's all it takes. If the tractor was running when it was last used there is generally very little to getting one running again. Let us know how it goes and post some pics.

There's a longstanding thread on Automotive if you want an antique tractor fix. http://texags.com/forums/46/topics/2076225/replies

Got my grandfathers 1941 M running last year. Some of the stuff I ran into:

Put a new coil on it
Replace points & condensers
Make sure your rotor is spinning and making contact
Check your timing
Check your plugs, gaps, and plug wires
Is the alternator good?

Thanks for putting the link up again. Lots of good memories on that thread. The connection with the guy who used to sit by dad is still one of the most amazing things I've seen in TexAgs, and I do t think it's just my personal connection.

I'll echo the fact that you can usually get those old tractors going with not much effort. I helped dad start one or two that had been sitting for years.

Drain the water out of the engine, the gas tank, the transmission, and the final drive. Turn the engine by hand before you put a battery on it. Magnetos are pretty bullet proof, maybe file the points a little. Mags are "always on" the ignition switch is actually a kill switch. So make sure it is not shorting out somewhere.

Canyon brings us a good point, one that caused me to re-read your post above:

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Right now I know my kill switch is bad so I'm bypassing that. I believe it should complete the circuit in the on position.

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If you have a magneto - the kill switch goes to ground and kills the spark by shorting out the mag. The circuit will be open when running and closed to kill. IF your tractor has a mag it sounds like you are shorting it out.

Distributors are exactly the opposite - the switch makes the circuit to energize the coil.

That tractor thread in automotive is terrific, and that picture of your dad and granddad is absolutely classic.

Funny thing about the points I replaced in that old Lincoln welder -- when I told my dad I had ordered a new set, he asked me 'can't you just clean 'em up?'

He'd be in good company here. :-)

Thanks for the clarification. That will help a lot in trouble shooting.

A couple pics right when I got it. Hopefully I'll get some time tomorrow night for some trouble shooting.

Does that wire coming off the side of your mag go up to the operator seat, to a kill switch? If so does the switch go straight to ground?

ETA - dont' spill the beans yet - give me a few minutes when I have some time to figure out what contraption is on the generator side.

Hydraulic cylinder?

My first thought, but does an B have live hydraulics? Looks like it had a cable that was attached to it then went down around the rock shaft - dampener of some sort???

Eta - is that a cut hose at the bottom? I guess you're right - an after market cylinder

I know a lot of JD stuff, not so up on the red tractors

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I know a lot of JD stuff, not so up on the red tractors

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I changed the oil on my little JD yesterday, and noticed that the filter says something like Made in USA, Manufactured by John Deere, Inc. Moline, Illinois (I think it was Illinois.)

My question is, what, if any, is the connection with the old Minneapolis Moline?

Yeah, I could google it.

This was a good read just to remember using the timing light, dwell meter, distributor wrench and that little flexible allen wrench thingy that would go through the port on the side of a distributor cap to adjust the points while running. Still have all that stuff out in my tool chest. I'll bet I haven't touched any of it for almost 30 years. Whereas back then it was almost an every month or so operation to make sure whatever we were driving was running right.

quote:

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Hydraulic cylinder?

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I don't know if it's the infamous exhaust lift or if it's something aftermarket.

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Does that wire coming off the side of your mag go up to the operator seat, to a kill switch? If so does the switch go straight to ground?

ETA - dont' spill the beans yet - give me a few minutes when I have some time to figure out what contraption is on the generator side.

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The wire coming off the mag goes to the + side of the coil. The - side of the cool goes to the fuse back to the negative side of the battery.

That contraption is a power lift that uses the exhaust. The exhaust manifold had Had an extra outlet with a valve that you pull a linkage and it would fill up the container with exhaust like a cylinder and as the pulley rose the cable that went to the Cultivator would tighten as it was raised. That raised the implement. To let down was the opposite action. It beat pulling the lift levers!!!

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The wire coming off the mag goes to the + side of the coil. The - side of the cool goes to the fuse back to the negative side of the battery.

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If it has a magneto, it doesn't have a coil. If it has a coil, it's a distributor.

Right ?

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I changed the oil on my little JD yesterday, and noticed that the filter says something like Made in USA, Manufactured by John Deere, Inc. Moline, Illinois (I think it was Illinois.)

My question is, what, if any, is the connection with the old Minneapolis Moline?

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The Minne-Mos were a separate company. Deere has factories in Moline, Ill, Waterloo, Iowa, lots of other places, I'm sure.

I think Miinneapolis and Moline were different companies and merged. They later absorbed Avery Tractor, and Dad had a MM-BF, which was basically an Avery R, in MM livery.

Http://www.troystractors.com/minneapolis-moline-bf-avery-r/

Even in a magneto system, I believe you still need the coil to transform the low voltage of the magneto up to the high voltage that will jump the spark plug gap.

But, I'm kind of new with this stuff. Most of the guys here seem to have forgotten more than I ever knew!

I had never seen an exhaust lift.

quote:

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Even in a magneto system, I believe you still need the coil to transform the low voltage of the magneto up to the high voltage that will jump the spark plug gap.

But, I'm kind of new with this stuff. Most of the guys here seem to have forgotten more than I ever knew!

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From what I can gather they can either be battery driven or magneto driven. I guess battery driven means the coil steps up voltage from the battery and magneto it steps up magneto voltage? It seems to me if that's correct and its magneto driven then I should be able to run it without a battery. Just hand crank for push start and it should run on its own.

If that wire goes from there, winds around, and ends up at the battery - you have distributor. There is no reason for a mag to be connected to the battery - certainly not the hot side. As canyon said the presence of an external coil is usually the deciding factor of what you are looking at.

Ribeye, yes magnetos have coils but they are generally internal and they are not energized from the battery. They get their energy from inertia of the spring system inside the magneto.

Also, I wonder if anyone ever operated this is a 12 v. It might not hurt to check and make sure there's not a resistor-usually a long piece of Ceramic with a wire terminal on each end-somewhere in the system

That is true. With a magneto you need no battery whatsoever. TO RUN THE ENGINE. Accesories (lights) need the battery.

Will second CP90. Have never seen an external coil on a magneto. I don't recall exactly how they work, but I'm pretty sure it's all internal to the magneto, and I think the mag gets its high voltage from internal windings.

Back to the 6v 12v question, since it's pretty easy to swap to 12, lots of folks do so. So look at the coil and see if it's marked for either voltage. Generator should be marked with its voltage.

And I've never seen the exhaust lift system, either. Kind of cool. It's really amazing to see on these old machines what they did with gears and levers and other mechanical means, the things we do so easily with electric, electronics, and hydraulics.

The Farmall A,B and C were different tractor configurations with the same Power unit thru the transmission. They could be very ornery for starting with starter. Or crank. But you could pull them 10 feet and they would start.

If there is a wire to the battery, it is not a magneto.

Freakin TA ate my post.

I'd never seen a converted external replacement coil magneto until I started googling for this thread. To be honest what you have LOOKS like a magneto, yet everything screams distributor. I'm thinking at some point your coil in the mag failed and was replaced with an external one - seems this was done on Cubs often - although I've never seen one.

When the engine turns over, does the mag have a loud mechanical click to it? That's a magneto impulsing. If it's silent it's a distributor.

I got to tinkering today and found out there is a magneto with an internal coil but the distributor is not plugged in. The distributor goes to the external coil which is supposed to be battery driven.

Points were perfect and looked almost new. I'm going to put it back together as magneto driven and see what happens.




What should the loose wire on top of the mag coil connect to?