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Cow/Calf breeds discussion

31,837 Views | 76 Replies | Last: 5 yr ago by Courtesy Flush
shaynew1
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Re sale barn

As a producer there are other ways to market your cattle and get a better weigh up or realize some other premiums (genetics, vac programs, all natural)

As a buyer, people needing to fill specific orders or avoid health issues can buy cattle right off the ranches or other venue.
AgySkeet06
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quote:
Backup question.

On less than 50 acres. Is having a bull worth it? I've been told just keep cows and use A.I.


To me it would depend how much time you have to put into a breeding program. We AI'd show cattle for a long time and it can be time consuming. There is hormone treatments to cycle the cattle then the time and proper facilities (a good chute) to AI. Then monitoring and palpation (or ultrasound if your lucky, also some places offer blood sample pregnancy test for cattle) to see if they are pregnant. If not starting over on the next cycle. If the cows are in your backyard I wouldnt think it be too difficult. If they are a traveling distance away from your home and you only work them on weekends it could be challenging.

Questions to consider:
Do you have a contact for someone to AI already? Are they certified? I've seen some good show cattle ruined because someone who claimed they could AI screwed up and poked a cow wrong.
There are some good programs out there where you can learn basic skills but they can be expensive. Will also need to invest in the equipment.
Hunter_812
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I've sold my calves this year and they did good at the sale barn. This next year I should have several load lots that will all be uniform black and bwf. I feel like I can do better selling that many calves away from the sale barn. Save several thousand in commission/lot fees not going to the sale.
Allen76
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quote:
Allen76, would be curious who you are and who your classmate was. My grandfather owned the Alamo Angus Ranch. My dad and uncle helped run it. It was sold years ago, Zachary owns it now. It is still there, but it is called something else now.
Cool!

I was in the same small high school class with some folks who lived on the ranch. One of them is Carl Warnke, who played football for TAMU. His dad Jim Warnke was the foreman there at Alamo Angus. Most of the things I know about Alamo Angus, I got from Carl as I visited his house a couple of times. Two other classmates that lived there were Ricky Deleon and Arlene Willman. We are all 1972 graduates of Medina Valley HS.

My grandfather and my father were Polled Hereford breeders. My herd is originally from them. I have never bought a female, but have transferred my herd by continuing to change bulls from one Brangus to the next. I have one red cow with a white face left. All of my other cows are either all black or black baldy. They are various mixes of Brangus, Angus, and Black Baldy.

I remember Carl telling me that the owner of that ranch was Mr. Schwab, and he owned a small jet that they got to travel in sometimes.

Have I given you any names that you knew?
KRamp90
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We do Angus/Brangus in Luling. As noted above the black calves do better at auction. At least in our part of the world.

We have about 76 acres, and run probably 20 momma's, but we have a guy that checks in on them.

This year we are going to keep two or three of the boys and raise them up for sale as breeders if anyone is interested.
Allen76
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quote:
Hunter if you've got a truckload and want to hear some other marketing options I'd love to talk with you.

Or if anyone else on here does.
Shaynew,
What is a truckload? I would definitely consider options but I probably don't ever have a truckload. If all my cows were perfectly synchronized, I would have 23 !
fightingfarmer09
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Statistical analysis of thousands of auction barns will show that sale prices for cattle break down:
Black>red>white.

It's a buyer thing.

With that said blacks make more money, but red faced cattle eat in hot sun and don't seek out the shade like a black cow making it a faster weight gainer (according to the old rancher wisdom).

If you are going to have a small operation <100 momma cows you are better off buying a solid cross (Braford or Brangus). Unless you are investing 100s of thousands of dollars you will never out think/breed the large ranchers selling F1 cross. You can have an expensive hobby and mess with purebreds because you are interested in it, but unless you know the nuances of selling and buying breeding stock and able to judge actual value vs "auction prices" you will lose your shirt.

Also, just because you have X acres doesn't determine how many head you can run. Unless you have a set acreage for hay production and take that seriously you will be tied to the feed and hay market. This is much more volatile than the cattle market, and will ultimately determine if you survive a drought.

Hay was $100+ a bale in 2011. I can't imagine having more than 40% of my hay needs reliant on the market in a severe drought.

Final note. Now is a bad time to get into the business. Cattle are expensive to buy breeding stock and prices are beginning to erode.

http://www.dtnprogressivefarmer.com/dtnag/common/link.do;jsessionid=38C056598236DD9883E89C3888902E1C.agfreejvm2?symbolicName=/free/news/template1&product=/ag/news/bestofdtnpf&vendorReference=1b861f28-ff0b-4ef5-b365-607270b90575__1442863675027&paneContentId=3030&paneParentId=0
BurnetAggie99
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Yes just depends on the buyer. It happens in the show ring too, some judges want color and some want black. Drives me nuts.
BurnetAggie99
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Also some of the best marbled meat I've seen and tasted came from Maine/Angus cross. Maine's have the highest marbling content out of the continental breeds and Black Angus have the highest out of the British breeds. I remember Dr. Hesby saying Maine/Angus cross is like Black Gold.
shaynew1
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Hunter- I'm a rep w superior livestock and would be happy to talk w you (or anyone) about your program for next year. Not necessarily to convince you to market with us, but share some info about some value added programs you could start to help your calves bring a premium where ever you sell them. Short of special weaned sales at the barns it's tough to realize those premiums if you're just hauling them to a barn.

Allen- 48,000 lbs give or take. We've sold lighter loads w a freight adjustment thought. Not sure what I could do for you short of finding someone close that's got an order out, but I don't know many ppl in your area.
mts6175
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quote:
Cool!

I was in the same small high school class with some folks who lived on the ranch. One of them is Carl Warnke, who played football for TAMU. His dad Jim Warnke was the foreman there at Alamo Angus. Most of the things I know about Alamo Angus, I got from Carl as I visited his house a couple of times. Two other classmates that lived there were Ricky Deleon and Arlene Willman. We are all 1972 graduates of Medina Valley HS.

My grandfather and my father were Polled Hereford breeders. My herd is originally from them. I have never bought a female, but have transferred my herd by continuing to change bulls from one Brangus to the next. I have one red cow with a white face left. All of my other cows are either all black or black baldy. They are various mixes of Brangus, Angus, and Black Baldy.

I remember Carl telling me that the owner of that ranch was Mr. Schwab, and he owned a small jet that they got to travel in sometimes.

Have I given you any names that you knew?
Yessir. Charles Schwab was my grandpa. My dad was Richard, Charles Jr. and Robert are my uncles, if any of those names ring a bell to you. I called my dad after I saw your post and he said the only person he could think of that went to A&M off the top of his head was Carl Warnke. My dad was class of '72, so he's a little bit older than y'all, and ran my grandpa's businesses for him. I was born in '75, so while I know the names from family history, I didn't really know them as all of this was going on when I was a baby.

If I remember right off the top of my head, they had about 3,000 head out there, primarily Angus. My family owned a lot of them, but it was also a contract operation maintaining cattle owned by various people, mainly Wall Street folks that had ties to my grandpa's other businesses that wanted to say they owned cattle in Texas. Dad has some interesting stories from the people he had to deal with from that part of it, and some I'm sure you've heard knowing the Warnke's.

I can't remember exactly when Alamo was closed or who they sold it too, all of this was going on when I was still wet behind the ears, but I know it's still there and currently owned by the Zachary's. It's called the U Bar Ranch now. Not sure if they are running many cattle out there, Zachary owns it for the water rights and the land itself since it's now just outside of Loop 1604 the way the city has grown since then. My family has been out of the cattle business for a while now, but dad is currently lining up the finances to start up a new operation to sell replacement heifers. He keeps telling me he wishes they had been able to keep the siemen collection they had there at Alamo to use, said it was some amazing bulls we had out there.

BTW, my dad did say he can't remember us importing any Chianina. Said Jim Warnke may have worked on the ranch still after Alamo was shut down and sold, so it may have been through the new owners. He wasn't sure.

Sorry if I have derailed the thread, small world though.
Hunter_812
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Shaynew- My email is in my profile.
shaynew1
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Great. I'll shoot you an email next week.
rolling_ridgeag05
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One thing that gets overlooked and you need to keep in mind. You are a grass farmer more than a cattle rancher. As others have said use available resources (ASCS office, County Agent) for help with testing soil, grass, etc. Make sure you also have plenty of water available either through tanks or onsite faucets. The last thing you want to do is haul water. Water and grass will make or break you regardless of what breed you choose.

Regarding breed I've always been partial to Angus crossbreds. Calves tend to finish pretty easily unlike some other breeds that take forever and the longer it takes to finish the less money packers/feedlots make.
JSKolache
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black cows make more $
Motel California
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quote:
black cows make more $


+1

If there's any breed you like and it offers a red or black. For sure go with the black. Black is the trend
Allen76
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quote:
Zachary owns it for the water rights and the land itself since it's now just outside of Loop 1604 the way the city has grown since then.

The ranch right next to it, which used to be the Luckey Ranch or Luckey Feedlot, was purchased several years ago by Jim Uptmore, a big Aggie. Jim turned around and sold the water rights to San Antonio. There are lots of homes on that ranch now and I am not sure if there is actually any "ranch" left.
hammerhead
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We are running 2 Simbrah (one purebred and one is a 3/4) bulls over Beefmaster/Cross cows. Keeping every heifer and slowly culling the older Beefmaster mommas..

Every calf is under 75 lbs, coming out polled and the bulls are throwing solid black or red and few that are white faced. Even thou both bulls are 1/4 to 3/8's Brahma both have the look of a purebred Simmi (not fullblood Fleck) so they are tightening sheaths, knocking a little ear off and heifers have great bags. Calves come small and grow fast.

About to add a few Brangus mommas into the mix....looking forward to that cross for replacements.
Agmechanic
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On our place the Black-white face and red white face calves bring the most $$$$$. We have a hodgepodge of genetics but the cows produce good looking calves with good weights consistantly. The white face "angus" look gets us the most money.

Now if I could buy about 30more cows with out going broke Id be set
Agmechanic
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The drought his us hard and we sold damn near everythig off.

Only have 25 but have grass for 70+
Motel California
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quote:
The drought his us hard and we sold damn near everythig off.

Only have 25 but have grass for 70+


2011 drought forced me to sell everything
fightingfarmer09
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quote:
quote:
The drought his us hard and we sold damn near everythig off.

Only have 25 but have grass for 70+


2011 drought forced me to sell everything


Which is exactly why anyone just getting into the business should be well diversified in hay sources and not dependent on the market going forward. Irrigated hay is one of the best investment, and most critical, that anyone getting into the large scale cattle business can make. That and a hay barn, which is the only structure on a ranch that will generate income.
Motel California
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quote:
quote:
quote:
The drought his us hard and we sold damn near everythig off.

Only have 25 but have grass for 70+


2011 drought forced me to sell everything


Which is exactly why anyone just getting into the business should be well diversified in hay sources and not dependent on the market going forward. Irrigated hay is one of the best investment, and most critical, that anyone getting into the large scale cattle business can make. That and a hay barn, which is the only structure on a ranch that will generate income.


I'm well diversed into all things hay and we have barns.
Agmechanic
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Hay schmay. You cant run a cow calf on hay alone. No water=no hay either
Agmechanic
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Aaand no groundwater up here to irrigate, and irrigation is not cheap.
aggieband 83
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quote:
black cows make more $
I never thought I would see the day there would be registered black hereford but there are. It is entirely because of buyers wanting black calves.
Allen76
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quote:
quote:
black cows make more $
I never thought I would see the day there would be registered black hereford but there are. It is entirely because of buyers wanting black calves.
HAHA I didn't know that. I know there is a black version of darn near every other breed now, but did not know that about Hereford.

Since my granddad and my dad raised polled Herefords, Black Angus were the "enemy" back in our stock show days. Then at A&M Meats Class, Dr. Gary Smith says that Angus beat out Hereford by a smidgen in the marbling category, meaning Hereford was almost the same, but since Angus was #1 it got all the pub. That of course left out more recent fads and developments like more Wagyu in the USA etc.

For those of you who posted on here who like Red Brangus or Red Angus, maybe you should look into the black strain of that...................... just kidding.
PabloEsteban87
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quote:
quote:
black cows make more $
I never thought I would see the day there would be registered black hereford but there are. It is entirely because of buyers wanting black calves.


Also Black Charolais cattle as well. I believe they are registered as purebred not fullblood at 31/32 Charolais.
Colt98
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Allen76
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breeds discussion....

I googled Black Hereford to see if they have a white face. Almost all of the pictures look like a Hereford with black hair instead of auburn and the white parts are about the same as tje standard Hereford.

Most of the pictures have cattle with a dark (blackish) pigment around the eye, but a few do not have it (those are white hair, or pink skinned).

I bring this up because my Dad's herd had a few years where pinkeye was a problem. We were always doctoring cattle for it and a few of them actually lost sight in an eye because of it. As he learned about it, he started choosing bulls with a dark pigment around the eyes. These were Hereford bulls so the pigment is auburn. This cured pinkeye about 99 percent! As his herd developed and his cows all possessed the darker skin around the eye, there was no more pinkeye problem. At this time the only time I see pinkeye is if I get a calf with pink skin around an eye.

Just another little tidbit when choosing your breed, especially your bull, if you might be considering whiteface, choose one with the dark pigment around the eyes.
Motel California
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Is "black baldie" not Herford and Angus mixed?

Which is the same thing as black Herford?
Allen76
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quote:
Is "black baldie" not Herford and Angus mixed?

Which is the same thing as black Herford?
They look very similar. Both are black with white face. However the lines between the two colors are usually different if all the pictures on google images for Black Hereford are correct.

Hereford (red or black) has white chest, stomach, brush of the tail, and top of the neck, and the white on the face and chest appears to go back a little farther than on a black baldy.

Black baldies usually have no white on top of the neck or brush of the tail, and very little white on the stomach, and much less white (or none) on the chest. The white on the face is not as far back to the ears like on a Hereford.

I have no idea what the actual genetic mix is for the Black Hereford though. Have to google that one. I guess it is possible that it is also Hereford and Angus but with less percent Angus and genetics chosen for black dominance.

If you breed a black baldy back to an Angus or Brangus, you can get another Black Baldy, or a Silver calf usually with white face, or most of them are called "Motley Faced" .... a mix of black & white spot pattern all over the face. In my opinion, these motley faced ones are the ones that really screw with the auction buyers. My cattle are all Angus/Brangus/Hereford but you can get a motley face from any variation of breeds like dairy crossed with Angus, Brangus, or whatever. Imagine those buyers, who have only a few seconds to make a decision, not having color as an indicator. They have to go by body shape, conformation, etc. If you are staring at something standing still and you can take your time, you can usually decide what you like or do not like about it. But the buyer sees it trot into the auction pen and they may or may not be moving around, and the buyer has only a few seconds to make up his mind.

The previous discussions on color.... I usually get top dollar for all black and black baldy, the motley faced and silver are usually well below them.
Allen76
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Receipt I got from selling five calves this past Monday. (MF means motley faced)

Black MF....595 lbs.....167.00.....$993.65
Black.........440 lbs......215.00.....$946.00
Grey(Silver)...315 lbs....228.00.....$718.20
Black MF.....650 lbs....150.00.....$975.00
Black MF.....505 lbs.....178.00.....$898.90

A brief analysis of this: I should not have sold the little grey one yet, but I had him in the pen and we are going into winter. Many times the difference between larger and smaller calves is not this much, so there is a guessing game but I would have kept the little one if I had known the price would be $275.45 difference.

The three MF are definitely the lowest per pound, but they are also the largest three out of the five.

The Black (all black) did extremely well. When I unloaded him I realized what a good looking little bull he was. The buy that bought him also bought the fifth calf so I don't think it was purchased for breeding. All of them were bought for feeder calves (most likely).

All of them were intact bulls.
Motel California
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Thanks
Allen76
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Well there it is, right there on Wikipedia on the Black Hereford....

"The Black Hereford has a white face like the Hereford, but the red body colour of the Hereford is replaced by black from the Holstein-Friesian white face and black coat colour are both genetically dominant in cattle. The pied pattern of the Holstein-Friesian does not appear in the offspring."

So there you go:

Black Baldy = Hereford x Angus
Black Hereford = Hereford x Holstein-Friesian

I have no idea what a Holstein-Friesian is. I know what most of us call "Holstein" is a black and white dairy cow.
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