i am a fan of antler restrictions because it benefits everyone. No matter what you come up there will always be deer like this that slip thru the cracks.

Call your Gamewarden. Show him that picture and he'll more than likely let you cull him.

tried that already.

tried contacting TP&W? they might have a different take on the situation?

With regulations on the book, they aren't real likely to make exceptions. Opens too many problems.

How many megapixel is that moultree camera? bad horns, great photo. looks like a good puzzle type of picture.

I also like antler restrictions, but I would still drop that deer.


queue the high and mighty...

2.09



______________________________________________________
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shoot
skin
shut up

Gilligan it is a moultrie i40.

I am a fan of the antler restrictions but just saying they don't always work. this deer has been protected for years. This is the first year we have seen him.

That is a hell of a camera... nice picture. ugly buck!

Bring an axe and chop off all but a stub on one side at a 45 degree angle to make a spike - instant legal deer.

I agree. I'd shoot him and shut up about it. Serves the greater good.

The 13" regs are going to let more tall narrow rack bucks survive and give them a reproductive advantage. If the right kind of genetic variance causes narrow racks, over time the 13" policy could result in substantially higher numbers of narrow racks.

awesome camera, ****ty buck. just shoot.

Well consider me someone thats not a fan of the antler restrictions. Hunt in East Texas. Saw my first buck on Sunday morning. Had to pass on him because he didn't meet the 13 inch requirement. And with the doe restrictions, it limits my ability to kill a damn deer. I don't hunt for horns. If a buck has a nice wide rack, great. But I hunt to put some deer meat in the freezer. If I wanted to hunt for big racks, I'd spend the money to hunt in the hill country, South Texas, etc. Maybe I'm not smart enough to understand the true impact the restrictions will have over time, but right now, its keeping me from filling the freezer with backstrap and deer sausage.

If you need meat then take a doe.

I have seen some significant improvements in the quality of deer in Colorado and Lavaca counties the last two years as the restrictions are starting to take effect. The problem with these and other counties is that there are too many hunters per acre and they historically took waaaay too many 1.5 year old deer. This year at my FIL's place outside Halletsville, he has seen 2 15inch wide 10 pointers and a wider 8 pointer. They have never seen that level of quality in the 40 years he has owned the land. Of course there will be plenty of back 40 bucks and culls that don't get culled, but overall I think the restrictions are starting to show great dividends.

quote:

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If you need meat then take a doe.

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Apparently you aren't very familiar with the regs in East Texas. Not always an option. And it varies from county to county over here. Some counties have a two day doe window. Others have a four day period for killing does. Some have as much as 16 days. Problem is I can't hunt every single day of the season and with work/family there's no guaranty I can hunt those specific days. And even if I can get away to hunt, in East Texas there's no guaranty I'm going to see a doe. I've sat and seen nothing plenty of times over the years. Which is why I hate the antler restrictions. I was raised on the principle of killing a deer for meat. Like I previously stated, if a buck has a nice wide rack...great. That's gravy on top. But if not, I would prefer to have the ability to still put meat in my freezer.

Honest question...other than getting larger deer with wider racks...what is the purpose of the antler restrictions?

GRRR. Hunting for the stupid HEAD instead of the meat on the body...

Originally the big deal about shooting a deer with a big rack was that it meant it was a big deer with lots of meat on it, and more deerskin.

somehow along the way, putting a giant head on your wall became more important than more good venison. Oh well.

[This message has been edited by MouthBQ98 (edited 11/18/2008 10:45a).]

To each their own. I personally hunt more for the meat, but I also get excited when I see a nice rack. Fact is, hunting deer is an extremely lucrative business in Texas and many people do hunt mostly for the horns. The laws were probably passed to allow for larger antlers and at the same time older, larger deer with more meat to be had.

Regardless of a person's goal when they get in the blind or the tree, other hunters should not chastise them or otherwise indicate that one method/motivation is better than another.

I certainly understand that deer hunting in Texas has become big money and bis business and very lucrative for landowners in certain areas of the state. And I don't have a problem with people that hunt for big bucks only. That's their decision and choice and how they want to spend their time/money. Cool with me. However I do have a problem with the state gearing regs seemingly for the main purpose of growing deer with larger racks. While it may benefit some hunters, I don't think it benefits all hunters...and it certainly goes against the principles I grew up with concerning deer hunting.

Part of the point was made earlier. There are way too many hunters per acre. Without antler restrictions, too many bucks come out of the herd. These restrictions are about the only way to maintain any balance at all in the herd.

Then why not regulate the number of bucks you are legally allowed to take. Right now, in most East Texas counties you can take a legal 13 inch spread buck, and a spike, or a buck with one unbrached antler. Just knock it down to one buck...period. No spike or antler requirements. Just one buck. Or if they needed to really beef the bucks back up one year, no bucks. But at least allow me the entire season to shoot a damn doe. And I don't like the argument that there are too many hunters per acre. Last thing we need to do is discourage more hunters with strict regs...and I promise you thats whats happening.

I could be wrong, but I think another intended effect of the restrictions is to try and increase the average age in the herd. Which will increase the repro health of the herd. Dynastar if you are just worried about the meat, I can bring you a cooler full. Ya'll have the problem of being told when you can shoot, and I have the problem of being told to shoot more than I can use. I donate a bunch every year anyway, no reason I can't send some your way if you want.

they just recently added the spike buck to the list hoping that people who are meat hunting will pass on marginal bucks (read young) and take a spike. According to TPWD spikes are genetically inferior and so they give you the option to take them out of the heard. As you said your self, you go out some times and never even see a deer, so imagine if they put does on the table for everyone who hunts in your county to shoot a doe. There would be no breeding stock left.

Texas is not setup to only allow X number of deer to be killed out a particular county and I don't think you want it that way. You would have to draw every year for a hunt on your own land.

Yes TPWD is doing this to try and make bigger bucks. With bigger bucks come more people wanting to hunt them. With more people wanting to hunt more revenue from licenses.

But they are also doing to to produce a better, healthier herd with better age structure. I will let some of the resident biologists speak to that.

**edit for clarifcation

[This message has been edited by RB1985cj7 (edited 11/18/2008 1:14p).]

As an East Texas hunter, I agree with every thing Dynastar has said.

As far as implementing antler restrictions to manage a healthier herd, I have a hard time with this. There was nothing wrong with the deer herds before the antler restrictions were passed (and there were a lot more hunters in the field)

The antler restrictions just do not fit well with the doe restrictions without infringing on rights / privelages of hunters. One or the other should be eliminated.

These restrictions have done nothing, but turn honest hunters into so called poachers, as the "shoot and shut up" comments support.

the "shoot & shut up" technique is way different from poaching. and if you don't know that you need to get out more.

the antler restrictions are a great tool b/c people as a whole aren't smart enough to let bucks get old enough to reach maturity. and letting bucks reach maturity allows the better genes to be passed on through "survival of the fittest".

of course, a few bucks will slip through the cracks of this rule because no rule is universal. and there's nothing wrong with taking out the few that are mature and will never be legal. so just shoot and shut up.

I agree and disagree with the rule. I like the fact that we are allowing deer to age. The older the deer, the bigger the body. I am not an antler hunter, but I do agree with the management point of view.

I disagree with the rule for the sole reason of what the OP said.

Edit: although, that buck could possibly be a shooter next year.


[This message has been edited by dannyag07 (edited 11/18/2008 2:35p).]

RockinU...thanks for the offer. If I end up striking out this year, I may take you up on that offer. The wife absolutely loves deer sausage. But hopefully I can find the right sized buck here locally. And the neighboring county has a doe season coming up over Thanksgiving, so I might have a chance to hunt a place over there during that time frame.

RB, you may be right about increasing the overall health of the herd, although I'd like to hear proof from some of the biologist on this board...hello, ursus, where are you?!? And I guess we'll have to agree to disagree about bigger bucks = more people wanting to hunt and more revenues. I've talked to lots of other hunters here in East Texas, and most of them absolutely hate the antler restriction regs. Spend lots of hours in the woods with no meat to take home. If you're willingly passing up smaller bucks to wait for the big boy, that's fine. But if you don't have the choice, trust me, it sucks to let him walk.

quote:

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the antler restrictions are a great tool b/c people as a whole aren't smart enough to let bucks get old enough to reach maturity.

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Once again, this is a fundamental difference in hunting philosophy. I have no problem if someone wants to pass up on a deer in hopes that he gets older and grows a nice huge rack. But there are still hunters out here that hunt for meat. And I've yet to hear someone explain how these antler restrictions are better for us.

Sorry for all the ranting and raving today on this issue. I had to pass on a buck Sunday morning, and I'm still pissed about it. And yes, I could have shot and shut up and processed it myself. Just didn't feel like taking that risk Sunday morning. The local Game Warden doesn't believe in the "shoot and shut up" excuse.

Well, like I said earlier. The older the deer, the bigger the body... to an extent. I am a meat hunter as well. If there are more and bigger deer to choose from in a few years, will it be worth it? I know it sux now, but think about it from the future standpoint.

As I am sure most of you have read this but you should read TPWD reasoning

quote:

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The primary goals of the experimental antler-restriction regulation were:

1. Improve the age structure of the buck herd;
2. Increase hunter opportunity; and
3. Encourage landowners and hunters to become more actively involved in better habitat management.

This regulation was designed to reduce the intense hunting pressure on bucks, particularly young bucks.

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bucks killed age structure.


The reason people are killing less is because it is harder to kill a 4.5 year old buck than it is to kill a 1.5 year old yearling. this is not a bash on your hunting skill just a known fact.


***edit for added graph

[This message has been edited by RB1985cj7 (edited 11/18/2008 2:51p).]

quote:

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the "shoot & shut up" technique is way different from poaching. and if you don't know that you need to get out more

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How are you going to draw the line in the sand and decide what is acceptable poaching and what is unacceptable poaching?

My grandfather hunted deer all year long and at night with buck shot when he was a kid. The laws changed and all of a sudden, he would be a poacher if he continued. They used to run dogs after deer all over the country on an open range. There were no posted signs. If a neighbor heard you running dogs on his land at 1 am in the morning, he would grab a lantern and join you. Texas passed laws prohibiting hunting with dogs and "clubbed" up the woods and closed the range. After that, they would be outlaw poachers if they continued what they were doing.

My point is, we give up a lot of liberties when we accept laws that are sold to us by convincing us that it is for our better good (e.g. gun control). Obviously, the above examples of historical hunting practices were detrimental to all hunters and today we can celebrate the fact that those laws passed because we saved the white tail from certain demise.

Will today's antler restrictions be celebrated in the years to come? I have no way of knowing, but what I do know is that if we keep making it harder and harder for people to hunt, there will be no one left to celebrate...

[This message has been edited by Neches21 (edited 11/18/2008 3:05p).]

we are not making it harder and harder for people to hunt. we are just making it harder for them to find an animal that is legal. At no point are we telling people they can't get out and hunt.

I see the point you are trying to make and I think you see the point the state is trying to make.

quote:

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I think you see the point the state is trying to make

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Absolutely....I just dont think the state should mandate it as law. I think they should educate hunters on the benefits of only harvesting deer with a spread wider than 13". Hunter education DOES work to influence groups of people.

Let the land owners, ranchers, and deer lease managers decide on their own whether or not they should adhere to these principles. Afterall, these people have been implementing these ideas (or even stricter) for years.

This gives me the option of joining a lease that is managed for larger and older deer for trophey purposes, or joining a lease that is only concerned with harvesting deer for meat. I just feel it should be my / our choice.

With the approach that Neches21 has, there will be no more deer left before long in some areas.

Before we speak about the short term benefits (or lack thereof) in East Texas), what about the long term affects from those 6 counties that started it all? From all I am hearing, most down there really are appreciative of ARs.

[This message has been edited by Aggiewes (edited 11/18/2008 3:53p).]