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I never said it wasn't valuable. How long does it take to make senior? How long does it take to make manager? There is a very common misconception out there that if you work a couple years for the big 4 then move to industry you will be a supervisor, director, or manager right away. This is very untrue and a lot of PPA students eat that up and believe it.

Three years down the road they tell me how much time they wasted because their salary was way less than industry and they would be so much further along if they went straight to industry. They missed out on three years of relationships because they thought big 4 mattered that much. If you know where you want to be then it's better to build your network there. You will be further along because relationships and networking is key. If you stay for 5 years and get a title change that is different. As another poster said, plan working there a long time and eventually it will pay off. Short term not as much but good experience.

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There's some interesting pieces here, but you're definitely discounting the MUCH broader network at a big 4 firm. Industry can have some initial benefits; but, if you make the wrong company bet, you can really suffer. If you're joining a GE, eBay, PepsiCo type of CFO training ground, that's a different animal than a stale IT Services company where everything is purely mechanical.

Big 4 is still the best starting point in my opinion. As long as you're not an idiot and you work hard, you're going to have the opportunity to do just about anything 3-5 years later. The point about walking over as a Director is very true though - expect to move over at a lower "rank" than you would expect and then earn your keep. It's the same thing when we're talking to Partners who are trying to get into a CFO role - they just haven't had the operational experience and I'm more likely to go with a CFO from investment banking than public accounting,

Context: I am an executive recruiter at a firm that has a fairly robust CFO practice. I've worked on a number of these projects and a normal CFO role is going to put more weight on Big 4 experience than an active CPA.

Joe, I completly agree with you and that was kind of my point. If you make the 3-5 year mark you will be a lot more profitable with experience. Many people get worn out on the lifestyle quicker than that. I can't disagree with anything you said. I just have a lot of PPA friends who either do big 4 because they do the internship and don't feel like going through career fair even though that internship makes them very marketable. It is easier to get recruited at career fair then as an external hire in my opinion.

I studied finance and I interned for a major oil company for a couple years and was fortunate to sign on with them full time. I now do voluntary recruiting for the company at A&M as an add on to my normal job. When sifting through resumes I love seeing the big 4 internship experience.

I believe it would be more beneficial for both sides if they came and worked for us right out of college. The same opportunity may not be available in the future. We do hire externally, however, we prefer to hire on campus which helps us remain visible on the campuses we recruit at.

I think that the optimal time to leave is new manger, 5-6 years of experience. That's where the experience / salary curve seems to translate best for new opportunities.

Joe, I'd love to connect with you at some point. Do you have contact information you'd be comfortable sharing on Texags?

Or make partner and you've got your suite at Kyle Field.

Dont worry about the ten grand difference 5 years out..... Think the half mil delta 20 years out.

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I studied finance and I interned for a major oil company for a couple years and was fortunate to sign on with them full time. I now do voluntary recruiting for the company at A&M as an add on to my normal job. When sifting through resumes I love seeing the big 4 internship experience.

I believe it would be more beneficial for both sides if they came and worked for us right out of college. The same opportunity may not be available in the future.

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Exactly how many years of full time industry experience do you have?

1 year of full time and 2 internships for the company two different summers. I know that may sound ridiculous, however, I have had parents and relatives in the energy industry so we talk about the subject a good amount. Also being a lead recruiter for A&M has helped me understand the recruiting side of things better.

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Or make partner and you've got your suite at Kyle Field.

Dont worry about the ten grand difference 5 years out..... Think the half mil delta 20 years out.

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Is it wrong to think this way? What's wrong staying until partner?

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1 year of full time and 2 internships for the company two different summers. I know that may sound ridiculous, however, I have had parents and relatives in the energy industry so we talk about the subject a good amount. Also being a lead recruiter for A&M has helped me understand the recruiting side of things better.

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You have one year of FT experience with one company. You don't have enough to tell people how they'd be "better off".

Most 23 yos don't know what they want to do long term. If they think they do, they are often wrong. The best case scenario is to widen their options as wide as possible, to get a better determination over the 4+ years of actual work experience what they want to do than the 4+ years spent in college without that same experience being the driver.

It's cute that you think being involved in recruiting at an entry level gives you the experience to opine on what most in a major should do, but those of us who also hire, at significantly higher levels than you, would tell you your advice is completely backwards and incorrect.

^ no need to be condescending. I am on the recruiting team for a reason and I was selected by the Treasure of the company who also is an Aggie. She has meetings with us ame we also talk about these things. I haven't told anyone what to do I am giving my personal opinion. Yes I'm the young which allows me to understand what types of jobs and salaries people my age are looking for. I also have meetings with the head of all for finance/accounting recruiting twice a week. To discredit everything I am saying is foolish. Is this for all companies? No. This is for ours, however, I know other recruiters at other companies (mostly oil and gas) that share the same views.

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1 year of full time and 2 internships for the company two different summers. I know that may sound ridiculous, however, I have had parents and relatives in the energy industry so we talk about the subject a good amount. Also being a lead recruiter for A&M has helped me understand the recruiting side of things better.

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Lol

Associate - 64k
Senior - 96k (3 years in)
Manager - 128k
Director - 170k

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1 year of full time and 2 internships for the company two different summers. I know that may sound ridiculous, however, I have had parents and relatives in the energy industry so we talk about the subject a good amount. Also being a lead recruiter for A&M has helped me understand the recruiting side of things better.

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Lol


this guy

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Or make partner and you've got your suite at Kyle Field.

Dont worry about the ten grand difference 5 years out..... Think the half mil delta 20 years out.

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Is it wrong to think this way? What's wrong staying until partner?

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Well, for one the people I know still in Public after 10+ years are not the ones I would have ever expected in college and I don't think any of them started out thinking they would make a run at partner. Very few people make partner so if you kill yourself and don't make it you'll be a 38 year old with 15 years of Big 4 Audit experience which is a very weird place to be in the marketplace. I agree with the guys above, 5-6 years, maybe up to 8, is just about ideal. Once you start working you'll see that for most working in Public Accounting is something you evaluate on an annual basis and try to figure out if it's worth another busy season to stay. One day most people say...nope.

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Associate - 64k
Senior - 96k (3 years in)
Manager - 128k
Director - 170k

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Huh?

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Associate - 64k
Senior - 96k (3 years in)
Manager - 128k
Director - 170k

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Huh?

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International tax pwc.

NM.

I interned big 4 and then went investment banking. I'm now on the finance side in industry. I'm at a mid sized public o&g company. Seeing the types of roles we hire from public accounting, I would say it's definitely worth it to stay until manager. A senior is not getting hired to be our director of accounting/controller, director of internal audit, our tax manager or our sec reporting manager, and at a company our size there aren't any other interesting roles (we have three senior types who support the roles listed above).

As for CAO and CFO type roles, I think you are far better off staying in public accounting 10 or so years. Not necessarily until you make partner, but close.

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1 year of full time and 2 internships for the company two different summers. I know that may sound ridiculous, however, I have had parents and relatives in the energy industry so we talk about the subject a good amount. Also being a lead recruiter for A&M has helped me understand the recruiting side of things better.

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You realize every employee at a B4 is on a recruiting team as well and they too also help hire new staff. That's really not that special.

Buffalo, that's not true. I have plenty of friends that work for big 4 my age and a couple years older that haven't even been invited to attend recruiting events. There is a difference between being on the team and being a lead recruiter. Because of the Aggie network everyone wants to be on the team. Look I'm not trying to make myself look special. I'm giving my opinion and an opinion others in my industry share. No one has to agree. As another poster said, it seems like people in public accounting reevaluate year after year because a lot of them know they will never make partner. I kept saying if you stay 3-5 years it's a lot more beneficial than just a couple, but I am not sure how many people make it 3-5 years. I would be interested to see that stat.

Would agree with TXAGFAN and Aggiesincebirth. In order to benefit from going Big 4, you really have to be there over 3 years but not more than 8-10. It can be an awkward place for folks to know you are at the cusp of making partner but looking to leave - i.e. you are not making the cut for partner.

The one thing not discussed regarding the partner route is the sales aspect of that job. You are going to have a tough time making partner if you do not excel at client relations and bringing in new business. Making partner is not simply sticking it out for 15 years. On the other hand, I've quipped before that partners are not the ones who stuck it out and made it, but are the ones who could never land a lucrative job in industry (both are factitious assumptions).

My advice for any accounting major would be to get your CPA, get the big four experience, then as others have indicated continue to evaluate each year if the rigors and big 4 environment are for you. However, if you intend to leave big 4 and climb the ladder in the corporate world, you will work the same hours and make the same personal sacrifices that you would as a big 4 partner.

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Buffalo, that's not true. I have plenty of friends that work for big 4 my age and a couple years older that haven't even been invited to attend recruiting events. There is a difference between being on the team and being a lead recruiter. Because of the Aggie network everyone wants to be on the team. Look I'm not trying to make myself look special. I'm giving my opinion and an opinion others in my industry share. No one has to agree. As another poster said, it seems like people in public accounting reevaluate year after year because a lot of them know they will never make partner. I kept saying if you stay 3-5 years it's a lot more beneficial than just a couple, but I am not sure how many people make it 3-5 years. I would be interested to see that stat.

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I'm on the Talent Acquisition team at a mid-major O&G (Read I'm actually a Corporate Recruiter). Maybe I'm miss understanding, but are you saying you've taken the lead role in the recruiting efforts at A&M, while at the same time holding another full time role? Is your HR/Talent team not involved? We take along former students with us for technical review of candidates, but I wouldn't call that a lead recruiter by any stretch. Just wondering.

Birth, it isgreat that you have found yourself in a great company with a great future.


BUT, the point of advice threads is to give the senerio that is the intersection of likely to happen and most valuable if it does. Basically what is the expected outcome for a member of a cohort.

For every accounting student that doesn't make it into a BBM or an investment banking company the answer for the surest path to the greatest payout over their career is a stint at a big 4. The next best option is a leadership development program at a GE, j&j, citi, or similar.

To give you an idea of how important it is, I have been out of the big 4 for more than a decade and it still comes up in every conversation with every recruiter.

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I think that the optimal time to leave is new manger, 5-6 years of experience. That's where the experience / salary curve seems to translate best for new opportunities.

Joe, I'd love to connect with you at some point. Do you have contact information you'd be comfortable sharing on Texags?

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joe at onpartners.com and anyone is welcome to connect with me on LinkedIn: http://www.linkedin.com/in/joeolson1

It should be noted that I don't do any recruiting for folks 3-10 years into their career, but happy to provide (what I hope to be) appropriate guidance.

I think that Birth is saying that since he is an Aggie, they put him in charge of recruiting efforts for on-campus visits. (What restaurant do you take the kids out to - how should things be structured? etc)

They have a number of other Aggies that go, but he is the one responsible for ensuring that things go smoothly. I don't think he's doing the HR/Recruiting role as much as being a public face for the type of people they want to hire.

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The one thing not discussed regarding the partner route is the sales aspect of that job. You are going to have a tough time making partner if you do not excel at client relations and bringing in new business. Making partner is not simply sticking it out for 15 years. On the other hand, I've quipped before that partners are not the ones who stuck it out and made it, but are the ones who could never land a lucrative job in industry (both are factitious assumptions)..

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I agree with this to an extent, but there is a place for partners that are more or less relationship managers and also great at running the entire office operation. It just depends on the partner setup and clients being serviced. But, still very sales-like in a way and recognizing areas of need for current clients.

For the record, I never worked in public accounting. I more or less wasn't interested in it at all and didn't feel like sacrificing 5 or 6 years to eventually move to industry. My brother is a partner at a B4 (Tax) and had plenty of offers on his way up the ladder, several that he was very close to taking, but he decided to aim for Partner. I would say he has had many sleepless work nights. I really doubt the 50 hour work week referenced earlier.

Sounds like the answer is, there's no good answer, it's whatever's best for each personal situation.

I will comment on the statements around working at big 4 for 15 years and not making partner is an awkward place to be. I think it's a pretty good place to be. If you are not tapped for partner, there are still non-equity roles that pay quite well where you can live out your career if you are happy at the firm. They rarely ask a SM to leave the firm.

If not, you can go many other executive routes... Controller, Director, VP etc etc etc

Law of averages, for true accountants, you are better off long term spending some time in big 4 rather than going straight to industry. Then ride the grind as long as you choose to.

Oh and lastly there are advisory routes in big 4 which are far better (hrs, pay, type of work) than straight audit. Audit is pretty horrible,...God bless the auditors.

i would love to see accurate data of how much time the average aggie associate spends on texags during the 65+ hour average work week..

in consulting, there were indeed some non-stop, forget to eat lunch, fire-drill, pushing buttons all day long while projecting your screen 7am to midnight type of busy days.. and a few times it turned into weeks. but compensation aside, i just don't see how folks can sustain any sort of valuable focus for months on end at that burn rate.

and i caught a glimpse of texags being up on a second screen a number of times when i ventured down to the tax floors to smuggle some of their breakfast during busy season so don't say it doesn't happen!



....not judging. i am posting this from work during business hours.

Given the velocity of the responses on this thread compared to other job network threads, I would say the accountants are some of the highest volume Texags surfers

Most Big 4 auditors aren't sustaining a 65+ chargeable hour week for more than a week or two. Now 55-60 for months? Definitely. Also CJO unlike a lot of consulting/advisory they typically have a fixed budget which is watched very closely so the + in 65+ is when they are on Texags. Most aren't charging ass in seat time.

I don't miss it...at all.

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Most aren't charging ass in seat time.

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but are they counting it in their work/life balance claims? to ask another way, if i am in the client's office 65 hours a week but only charging 55 hours actually worked and not charging the time on texags, lunch, or gossip between meetings.. can i still claim a work schedule of 65 hours a week?

If you could have otherwise gone home earlier, then no. But most jobs people spend at least 10-20% of their time doing those things simply as a result of waiting on others to get them what they need to do their job. For example, if I give something to my boss to review and I have nothing to do until he gives me comments but the thing he is reviewing has to be completed before I go home, does the hour I spend on Texags while waiting on him to get back to me not count as hours I have to be in the office? Same question for if I give the work to my subordinate but I am waiting on him/her to finish?

When I was an associate, during busy season the Internal Audit Manager at the client gave my senior manager a printout of what websites were associated with the IP addresses in our conference room. Texags was at the top of the list. My SM told the guy he should not be monitoring their external auditors internet usage,...and then he had a talk with us.

what else was on the list?

and did your boss say "use your mifi for texags you idiots"?

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When I was an associate, during busy season the Internal Audit Manager at the client gave my senior manager a printout of what websites were associated with the IP addresses in our conference room. Texags was at the top of the list. My SM told the guy he should not be monitoring their external auditors internet usage,...and then he had a talk with us.

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What a terrible Internal Audit department.

Haven't read all the posts but each big four promotes at different rates from what I hear with EY promoting faster and PwC on the slower end