BMX Bandit said:

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Aglaw97 said:

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BMX Bandit said:

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Aglaw97 said:

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annie88 said:

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Over a damn parking spot.
Good Lord people.

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That's just it. It wasn't over a parking spot

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Then what were the arguing over?

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Who knows....but that level of rage, emotion, whatever isn't over a parking spot. It's over years of people telling these individuals that "black people, especially women, think they are entitled to everything" and "white men are the root of all of my problems and are constantly looking to keep me down".

That or both have miserable lives and spouses at home. Whatever the cause it wasn't a parking spot....it was something else and unfortunately both went to a defcon level 1 over those triggers at the same time and typically bad things happen after that.

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thanks Freud


The whole thing started over a parking space. That's what Annie and everyone else is pointing out makes this whole thing even more tragic.

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The Freudian point is actually the more important one IMO and for discussion on this forum. Rational people aren't going to die over a parking spot. This stuff is happening more and more because there are people who want division and don't mind this type of collateral damage. In fact they actually welcome some of it.

EMY92 said:

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Just based on the video, he looked to be aggressive, the woman was backing up and he kept approaching. I don't have any issue with the woman's actions.

Now, that could change with more facts, but based on the short video, I don't think she was in the wrong.

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Agree with the end. However, I would need to see and know more about how it started and what was said along the way. If she instigated and escalated it into a deadly situation, I don't give her points for backing away at the end. She was the first (and only) to pull the gun, so what exactly was happening, being said, and their positioning around that is the portion I'm most interested in.

Jack Squat 83 said:

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Yea, although I know little to nothing about this video/case, this one shouldn't have anything to do with race IMO, like so many others do. Maybe she shouldn't have pulled a gun, who knows. Could be and most likely is more to the story.

However, for you guys, what would you want your wife to do while a man keeps getting closer and closer despite her retreating and asking him to back off? Seriously would you want her to wait until this (obviously messed up) gentleman attacked her and did who knows what???

Then it would be, oh you should have shot that SOB when you could have!

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A) get out of the situation
B) don't get out and talk to other people while shaking a gun
C) shut her mouth and stop
D) I could keep going but let's not act like either are saints in this

Looks like she gave him ample opportunity to retreat, telling him to walk away and he just kept advancing. At the point she shot, he was close enough to attack in less than a second.

Also, does he look drunk to anyone else? He stumbles at a few points and is kind of rocking back and forth

TAMUallen said:

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Texaggie7nine said:

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Ducks4brkfast said:

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Texaggie7nine said:

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The second video is plenty of evidence. He followed her AROUND a car while she had the gun and told him to get away? You think a man should be able to threaten and stalk a female like that and she can't defend herself?

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People are allowed to get into arguments. People are allowed to move about freely in public.

A woman telling a man to get away is a prima facie case for deadly force?

Does this same standard apply to sporting events if a man a woman start arguing?

In line in for a ski lift?

If a woman tells a man to get away, he must? Or he dies?

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Why are you leaving out the fact that she had a gun pointed at him telling him to get away, while he followed her around multiple cars as she continued to back up and tried to get away from him? He still kept stalking her.

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You think this then excuses a bad shot?

It's clear your opinion but doesn't make it right

If we're going on opinions, I think he was treating her as somebody like him, worked up over a parking spot and acting like an idiot but still half way logical. He would've known he wasnt a threat and didnt think an irrational black woman would shoot him for them continuing to verbally argue. Made a very wrong analysis of the situation and was thinking I haven't done anything to actually be shot, so I won't be, then he was. The timing of the shot is a very bad one since this argument had been going on for a while in more compromising setups. When he was shot he was not looking like an immediate threat with his hands at his side that needed to be neutralized

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What planet are you from? You think a rational person who sees another human point a gun at them at tells them to "GET AWAY" as they walk backwards is someone that you can continue to walk at and make them think you are not a threat?

I hate to be the guy to ask "would you think the same if she were white and he were black" but I almost have to if you think she must be illogical to think a man walking at her while she tells him to get back and points a gun at him is not a threat.

[Calling other posters racist is out of bounds -- Staff]

Quote:

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Looks to me like clear self defense this time.

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Good grief! Are you an SEC official per chance?! That is nowhere near "clear self defense".

Texaggie7nine said:

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The second video is plenty of evidence. He followed her AROUND a car while she had the gun and told him to get away? You think a man should be able to threaten and stalk a female like that and she can't defend herself?

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Assumes facts not in evidence.

Unless they have your child, wife, property, etc., if someone is pointing a gun at you, walk the **** away and don't engage. It's the most basic concept that for whatever reason, some people just can't grasp.

Again, it can't be clear until we have more facts around the circumstances of her pulling it to begin with. If I'm not threatening you, you don't get to pull a gun on me and then shoot me because my response at that point was to come at you. Now if there was reason for her to feel threatened and it was pulled in defense, ok. But if it was pulled just to intimidate but no real threat from him yet, that's a problemo

I'm not saying she was legally clear to brandish the firearm, I would need a lot more info and evidence.

But he continued to aggressively approach her physically while she had the gun pointed at him; so I do believe she will meet the standard of reasonable fear for her life.

Of course that doesn't matter if she cannot demonstrate that she wasn't participating in the escalation that led to it.



If we are talking about what "should happen" and recognizing we are speculating about a lot that it's not on the video, this feels like one that should either be self defense or plead down to a lessor manslaughter charge

Texaggie7nine said:

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TAMUallen said:

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Texaggie7nine said:

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Ducks4brkfast said:

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Texaggie7nine said:

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The second video is plenty of evidence. He followed her AROUND a car while she had the gun and told him to get away? You think a man should be able to threaten and stalk a female like that and she can't defend herself?

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People are allowed to get into arguments. People are allowed to move about freely in public.

A woman telling a man to get away is a prima facie case for deadly force?

Does this same standard apply to sporting events if a man a woman start arguing?

In line in for a ski lift?

If a woman tells a man to get away, he must? Or he dies?

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Why are you leaving out the fact that she had a gun pointed at him telling him to get away, while he followed her around multiple cars as she continued to back up and tried to get away from him? He still kept stalking her.

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You think this then excuses a bad shot?

It's clear your opinion but doesn't make it right

If we're going on opinions, I think he was treating her as somebody like him, worked up over a parking spot and acting like an idiot but still half way logical. He would've known he wasnt a threat and didnt think an irrational black woman would shoot him for them continuing to verbally argue. Made a very wrong analysis of the situation and was thinking I haven't done anything to actually be shot, so I won't be, then he was. The timing of the shot is a very bad one since this argument had been going on for a while in more compromising setups. When he was shot he was not looking like an immediate threat with his hands at his side that needed to be neutralized

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What planet are you from? You think a rational person who sees another human point a gun at them at tells them to "GET AWAY" as they walk backwards is someone that you can continue to walk at and make them think you are not a threat?

I hate to be the guy to ask "would you think the same if she were white and he were black" but I almost have to if you think she must be illogical to think a man walking at her while she tells him to get back and points a gun at him is not a threat.

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If I'm on the jury, she's going to prison.

Deadly force: justified when a person reasonably believes it's necessary to prevent imminent death or great bodily harm to themselves or another, or to prevent the imminent commission of a forcible felony.

Reasonable belief of danger - the threat must be more than just words or a minor physical altercation.

Proportional force - deadly force likely won't be justified against a non-deadly threat.

As long as she didn't escalate the situation, it's a good shoot IMO. The video shows him to be the aggressor but I would like to know what happened before the video.

Enrico Pallazzo said:

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Again, it can't be clear until we have more facts around the circumstances of her pulling it to begin with. If I'm not threatening you, you don't get to pull a gun on me and then shoot me because my response at that point was to come at you. Now if there was reason for her to feel threatened and it was pulled in defense, ok. But if it was pulled just to intimidate but no real threat from him yet, that's a problemo

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She supposed to let him attack her and take her gun and kill her with it? He's clearly effing crazy….or high as a kite on something. Advancing on someone pointing a loaded gun at you? Insane.

Texaggie7nine said:

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TAMUallen said:

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Texaggie7nine said:

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Ducks4brkfast said:

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Texaggie7nine said:

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The second video is plenty of evidence. He followed her AROUND a car while she had the gun and told him to get away? You think a man should be able to threaten and stalk a female like that and she can't defend herself?

---

People are allowed to get into arguments. People are allowed to move about freely in public.

A woman telling a man to get away is a prima facie case for deadly force?

Does this same standard apply to sporting events if a man a woman start arguing?

In line in for a ski lift?

If a woman tells a man to get away, he must? Or he dies?

---

Why are you leaving out the fact that she had a gun pointed at him telling him to get away, while he followed her around multiple cars as she continued to back up and tried to get away from him? He still kept stalking her.

---

You think this then excuses a bad shot?

It's clear your opinion but doesn't make it right

If we're going on opinions, I think he was treating her as somebody like him, worked up over a parking spot and acting like an idiot but still half way logical. He would've known he wasnt a threat and didnt think an irrational black woman would shoot him for them continuing to verbally argue. Made a very wrong analysis of the situation and was thinking I haven't done anything to actually be shot, so I won't be, then he was. The timing of the shot is a very bad one since this argument had been going on for a while in more compromising setups. When he was shot he was not looking like an immediate threat with his hands at his side that needed to be neutralized

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What planet are you from? You think a rational person who sees another human point a gun at them at tells them to "GET AWAY" as they walk backwards is someone that you can continue to walk at and make them think you are not a threat?

I hate to be the guy to ask "would you think the same if she were white and he were black" but I almost have to if you think she must be illogical to think a man walking at her while she tells him to get back and points a gun at him is not a threat.

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Fact is, theyre both idiots. For some reason you think this was a good shot.

It wasn't a good shot.

If it was, we wouldnt have this thread.

Youre also giving an incomplete story of an incomplete story. Was he acting smart? Nope. Does the narration state that this had been ongoing? Yep.

For some twisted reason, you think that yelling "get away" which was emphasized by the reporting for added emotional effect, then makes it an acceptable shot. He looked the least threatening of the videos presented and very slowly walking in a non threatening manner when the shot occurred. Firing when he is actually putting his hands downward isn't doing her favors.

As I've said, this is incomplete and this does not look to be a good shot.

Hardcore Greg said:

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JDUB08AG said:

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What the hell is that guy doing walking towards her when she has a gun pointed at him? How incredibly stupid.

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This. If I am at the point I feel I need to draw on someone and then they keep advancing, I am definitely fearing for my life at that point. I'm dealing with a psycho who isn't afraid of mag dump to the chest.

Good shoot imo.

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The facts behind "if I feel" is the key factor though. If you pulled because you feel someone was being an ahole and you want to intimidate them, then you have a problem. There better be an initial threat/fear for one's life behind that brandish. I can't say we know what her situation was

Logos Stick said:

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Texaggie7nine said:

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TAMUallen said:

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Texaggie7nine said:

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Ducks4brkfast said:

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Texaggie7nine said:

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The second video is plenty of evidence. He followed her AROUND a car while she had the gun and told him to get away? You think a man should be able to threaten and stalk a female like that and she can't defend herself?

---

People are allowed to get into arguments. People are allowed to move about freely in public.

A woman telling a man to get away is a prima facie case for deadly force?

Does this same standard apply to sporting events if a man a woman start arguing?

In line in for a ski lift?

If a woman tells a man to get away, he must? Or he dies?

---

Why are you leaving out the fact that she had a gun pointed at him telling him to get away, while he followed her around multiple cars as she continued to back up and tried to get away from him? He still kept stalking her.

---

You think this then excuses a bad shot?

It's clear your opinion but doesn't make it right

If we're going on opinions, I think he was treating her as somebody like him, worked up over a parking spot and acting like an idiot but still half way logical. He would've known he wasnt a threat and didnt think an irrational black woman would shoot him for them continuing to verbally argue. Made a very wrong analysis of the situation and was thinking I haven't done anything to actually be shot, so I won't be, then he was. The timing of the shot is a very bad one since this argument had been going on for a while in more compromising setups. When he was shot he was not looking like an immediate threat with his hands at his side that needed to be neutralized

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What planet are you from? You think a rational person who sees another human point a gun at them at tells them to "GET AWAY" as they walk backwards is someone that you can continue to walk at and make them think you are not a threat?

I hate to be the guy to ask "would you think the same if she were white and he were black" but I almost have to if you think she must be illogical to think a man walking at her while she tells him to get back and points a gun at him is not a threat.

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If I'm on the jury, she's going to prison.

Deadly force: justified when a person reasonably believes it's necessary to prevent imminent death or great bodily harm to themselves or another, or to prevent the imminent commission of a forcible felony.

Reasonable belief of danger - the threat must be more than just words or a minor physical altercation.

Proportional force - deadly force likely won't be justified against a non-deadly threat.

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To me it's a potentially deadly threat. You have your gun pointed at someone and they keep pursuing you. What else is she supposed to assume other than "holy sh**, this is a madman coming after me to take my gun and kill me or beat me severely with it"?

aggiehawg said:

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Quote:

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Agree with the end. However, I would need to see and know more about how it started and what was said along the way. If she instigated and escalated it into a deadly situation, I don't give her points for backing away at the end. She was the first (and only) to pull the gun, so what exactly was happening, being said, and their positioning around that is the portion I'm most interested in.

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She was safe in her car. She left that protection armed, openly so. That's escalation wherein she was presenting the deadly threat. Backing up a few feet with the gun still pointed at him is not retreating nor deescalation.

To put this into perspective, had he been armed and she pointed her gun at him in the fashion she did, he would then have a claim of self defense had he shot her.

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Look at her mannerisms with the gun while talking to the minivan that got the **** out of the area. Added that they got away quickly, they thought there were going to be shots fired

Enrico Pallazzo said:

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Hardcore Greg said:

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JDUB08AG said:

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What the hell is that guy doing walking towards her when she has a gun pointed at him? How incredibly stupid.

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This. If I am at the point I feel I need to draw on someone and then they keep advancing, I am definitely fearing for my life at that point. I'm dealing with a psycho who isn't afraid of mag dump to the chest.

Good shoot imo.

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The facts behind "if I feel" is the key factor though. If you pulled because you feel someone was being an ahole and you want to intimidate them, then you have a problem. There better be an initial threat/fear for one's life behind that brandish. I can't say we know what her situation was

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True, but even then, charge her with something like brandishing. To me things kind of "reset" when she has gun pointed at him and he starts acting aggressive and rushing after her. She seemed to genuinely fear for her life…even if she may be an idiot and maybe shouldn't have pulled a gun to begin with. But she was clearly dealing with a psycho who she thought would be scared off and leave her alone after pulling her gun.

Hardcore Greg said:

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Enrico Pallazzo said:

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Again, it can't be clear until we have more facts around the circumstances of her pulling it to begin with. If I'm not threatening you, you don't get to pull a gun on me and then shoot me because my response at that point was to come at you. Now if there was reason for her to feel threatened and it was pulled in defense, ok. But if it was pulled just to intimidate but no real threat from him yet, that's a problemo

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She supposed to let him attack her and take her gun and kill her with it? He's clearly effing crazy….or high as a kite on something. Advancing on someone pointing a loaded gun at you? Insane.

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She drives away or simply goes into the Walmart instead of parking, getting out with gun in hand and waiting for situation to escalate?

Hardcore Greg said:

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Logos Stick said:

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Texaggie7nine said:

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TAMUallen said:

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Texaggie7nine said:

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Ducks4brkfast said:

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Texaggie7nine said:

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The second video is plenty of evidence. He followed her AROUND a car while she had the gun and told him to get away? You think a man should be able to threaten and stalk a female like that and she can't defend herself?

---

People are allowed to get into arguments. People are allowed to move about freely in public.

A woman telling a man to get away is a prima facie case for deadly force?

Does this same standard apply to sporting events if a man a woman start arguing?

In line in for a ski lift?

If a woman tells a man to get away, he must? Or he dies?

---

Why are you leaving out the fact that she had a gun pointed at him telling him to get away, while he followed her around multiple cars as she continued to back up and tried to get away from him? He still kept stalking her.

---

You think this then excuses a bad shot?

It's clear your opinion but doesn't make it right

If we're going on opinions, I think he was treating her as somebody like him, worked up over a parking spot and acting like an idiot but still half way logical. He would've known he wasnt a threat and didnt think an irrational black woman would shoot him for them continuing to verbally argue. Made a very wrong analysis of the situation and was thinking I haven't done anything to actually be shot, so I won't be, then he was. The timing of the shot is a very bad one since this argument had been going on for a while in more compromising setups. When he was shot he was not looking like an immediate threat with his hands at his side that needed to be neutralized

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What planet are you from? You think a rational person who sees another human point a gun at them at tells them to "GET AWAY" as they walk backwards is someone that you can continue to walk at and make them think you are not a threat?

I hate to be the guy to ask "would you think the same if she were white and he were black" but I almost have to if you think she must be illogical to think a man walking at her while she tells him to get back and points a gun at him is not a threat.

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If I'm on the jury, she's going to prison.

Deadly force: justified when a person reasonably believes it's necessary to prevent imminent death or great bodily harm to themselves or another, or to prevent the imminent commission of a forcible felony.

Reasonable belief of danger - the threat must be more than just words or a minor physical altercation.

Proportional force - deadly force likely won't be justified against a non-deadly threat.

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To me it's a potentially deadly threat. You have your gun pointed at someone and they keep pursuing you. What else is she supposed to assume other than "holy sh**, this is a madman coming after me to take my gun and kill me or beat me severely with it"?

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Look at the video again. It wasn't an aggressive pursuit once she had the gun and was at the car. There was 5-6 feet in between them. She doesn't have a duty to retreat, but I just don't think it rises to a deadly threat at that point.

Hardcore Greg said:

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Enrico Pallazzo said:

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Hardcore Greg said:

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JDUB08AG said:

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What the hell is that guy doing walking towards her when she has a gun pointed at him? How incredibly stupid.

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This. If I am at the point I feel I need to draw on someone and then they keep advancing, I am definitely fearing for my life at that point. I'm dealing with a psycho who isn't afraid of mag dump to the chest.

Good shoot imo.

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The facts behind "if I feel" is the key factor though. If you pulled because you feel someone was being an ahole and you want to intimidate them, then you have a problem. There better be an initial threat/fear for one's life behind that brandish. I can't say we know what her situation was

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True, but even then, charge her with something like brandishing. To me things kind of "reset" when she has gun pointed at him and he starts acting aggressive and rushing after her. She seemed to genuinely fear for her life…even if she may be an idiot and maybe shouldn't have pulled a gun to begin with. But she was clearly dealing with a psycho who she thought would be scared off and leave her alone after pulling her gun.

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Problem there is he wasn't rushing and was putting his hands to the side as he slowly walked. Out of the times he was approaching, this was the calmest.

Bad situation all around and I truly believe it should've never happened by either side

aggiehawg said:

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Quote:

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Backing up a few feet with the gun still pointed at him is not retreating nor deescalation.

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Video evidence shows that he perused her for a significant amount of time. She went around another car, pointing at him telling him to get away, and he followed her all the way around the car. With that context, yes, any movement towards her while she was pointing the gun and saying get back should be perceived as a deadly threat.

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Yeah, unclear. Not enough known about situation to make determination.

Way too many questions.

Who started it? You don't get to start situation and then claim self defense like that (covered in CHL classes).

Nothing like Carmelo self-defense claim.

Which means lean towards justified shooting or lower level charges, unless there are facts to the contrary.

TAMUallen said:

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Hardcore Greg said:

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Enrico Pallazzo said:

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Hardcore Greg said:

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JDUB08AG said:

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What the hell is that guy doing walking towards her when she has a gun pointed at him? How incredibly stupid.

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This. If I am at the point I feel I need to draw on someone and then they keep advancing, I am definitely fearing for my life at that point. I'm dealing with a psycho who isn't afraid of mag dump to the chest.

Good shoot imo.

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The facts behind "if I feel" is the key factor though. If you pulled because you feel someone was being an ahole and you want to intimidate them, then you have a problem. There better be an initial threat/fear for one's life behind that brandish. I can't say we know what her situation was

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True, but even then, charge her with something like brandishing. To me things kind of "reset" when she has gun pointed at him and he starts acting aggressive and rushing after her. She seemed to genuinely fear for her life…even if she may be an idiot and maybe shouldn't have pulled a gun to begin with. But she was clearly dealing with a psycho who she thought would be scared off and leave her alone after pulling her gun.

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Problem there is he wasn't rushing and was putting his hands to the side as he slowly walked. Out of the times he was approaching, this was the calmest.

Bad situation all around and I truly believe it should've never happened by either side

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I believe it should have never happened as well, which you can say about a large % of these types of interactions. Regardless, if I ever drew on someone and they kept coming after me (at ANY rate of speed), I am sh*tying bricks and certainly fearing for my life. That is not the response anyone would expect imo.

She is clearly dealing with a crazy/dangerous/irrational person.

Quote:

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True, but even then, charge her with something like brandishing. To me things kind of "reset" when she has gun pointed at him and he starts acting aggressive and rushing after her. She seemed to genuinely fear for her life…even if she may be an idiot and maybe shouldn't have pulled a gun to begin with. But she was clearly dealing with a psycho who she thought would be scared off and leave her alone after pulling her gun.

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Whether she feared for her life or not is not the legal question. Whether that was reasonable belief is the question.

Yeah, as I said from the start, it's possible she wasn't justified in first pulling the gun, in which case, I think this is manslaughter. Because what else are you supposed to do when you have drawn a gun and told someone to get away and they keep coming at you time and time again?

Texaggie7nine said:

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Yeah, as I said from the start, it's possible she wasn't justified in first pulling the gun, in which case, I think this is manslaughter. Because what else are you supposed to do when you have drawn a gun and told someone to get away and they keep coming at you time and time again?

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Apparently just hand them the gun and let them kill you with it or beat you into a coma. You must forfeit the fight, paying the ultimate price.

Hardcore Greg said:

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TAMUallen said:

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Hardcore Greg said:

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Enrico Pallazzo said:

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Hardcore Greg said:

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JDUB08AG said:

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What the hell is that guy doing walking towards her when she has a gun pointed at him? How incredibly stupid.

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This. If I am at the point I feel I need to draw on someone and then they keep advancing, I am definitely fearing for my life at that point. I'm dealing with a psycho who isn't afraid of mag dump to the chest.

Good shoot imo.

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The facts behind "if I feel" is the key factor though. If you pulled because you feel someone was being an ahole and you want to intimidate them, then you have a problem. There better be an initial threat/fear for one's life behind that brandish. I can't say we know what her situation was

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True, but even then, charge her with something like brandishing. To me things kind of "reset" when she has gun pointed at him and he starts acting aggressive and rushing after her. She seemed to genuinely fear for her life…even if she may be an idiot and maybe shouldn't have pulled a gun to begin with. But she was clearly dealing with a psycho who she thought would be scared off and leave her alone after pulling her gun.

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Problem there is he wasn't rushing and was putting his hands to the side as he slowly walked. Out of the times he was approaching, this was the calmest.

Bad situation all around and I truly believe it should've never happened by either side

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I believe it should have never happened as well, which you can say about a large % of these types of interactions. Regardless, if I ever drew on someone and they kept coming after me (at ANY rate of speed), I am sh*tying bricks and certainly fearing for my life. That is not the response anyone would expect imo.

She is clearly dealing with a crazy/dangerous/irrational person.

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She was also crazy/dangerous/irrational in my opinion from what I've seen.

I know that if I was in the situation, was walking from a spot not as close, she was there then waiting on me, ready to shoot with gun in hand, I'm shooting first. Let's not excuse her criminal actions because of this incomplete reporting of the situation either.

aggiehawg said:

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Quote:

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True, but even then, charge her with something like brandishing. To me things kind of "reset" when she has gun pointed at him and he starts acting aggressive and rushing after her. She seemed to genuinely fear for her life…even if she may be an idiot and maybe shouldn't have pulled a gun to begin with. But she was clearly dealing with a psycho who she thought would be scared off and leave her alone after pulling her gun.

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Whether she feared for her life or not is not the legal question. Whether that was reasonable belief is the question.

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So basically whether a rational person would fear for their life in that situation? Yep, only a psycho or someone high on PCP or something would not fear for their life if someone was still coming after you while you've got them dead to rights.