It's pointing more and more like the Unthinkable. The fuel cut-off switches are lift and pull. Not the easiest switch to employ and for obvious reasons; the switch has to be grasped firmly and lifted over a detent. Any engine shut down control, whether it's a fuel control switch or an Engine Fire T-Handle has to be pointed at and confirmed by BOTH pilots prior to initiation. To switch these cut off switches takes a concerted and deliberate effort. There is absolutely no scenario that would require both switches to be flipped immediately- actually, there is no situation where either switch would be flipped immediately.

Hey Southlake...hope all is well and that you're enjoying retirement!

I've read those cutoff switches are almost impossible to turn off by accident. In your opinion, do you think it was pilot suicide?

ToddyHill said:

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Hey Southlake...hope all is well and that you're enjoying retirement!

I've read those cutoff switches are almost impossible to turn off by accident. In your opinion, do you think it was pilot suicide?

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Life continues to be good to me. After 40 years, I don't miss flying a bit. Amazing that I had the opportunity.

It was in the back of my mind from day 1. Many fingers pointing in that direction but I never wanted to say anything until the accident report was out. Still hoping it's not the reason.

ToddyHill said:

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Hey Southlake...hope all is well and that you're enjoying retirement!

I've read those cutoff switches are almost impossible to turn off by accident. In your opinion, do you think it was pilot suicide?

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That close to the ground?

My mind goes back to the EgyptAir 990 crash in October, 1999. The NTSB, at the request of the Egyptian government, investigated and concluded the crash was the result of human manipulation of flight control surfaces and the NTSB wanted to hand over the investigation to the FBI because they felt it was a criminal act. (The crash occurred 60 miles offshore in the Atlantic).
Because the crash was in international waters, the Egyptian government was responsible and insisted that human error, not a criminal act, was the cause of the crash.

*Based on the youtube videos I've watched, it is possible for one of those double action switches to malfunction. Apparently it happened once on a 737 in the past, after which corrective action was taken. That switch is a diff part number than the ones on the 787...and the odds of that happening to both switches simultaneously approaches zero.

*disclaimer, I'm just a frequent passenger, not a pilot or aero engineer.

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[color=#000000]Any engine shut down control, whether it's a fuel control switch or an Engine Fire T-Handle has to be pointed at and confirmed by BOTH pilots prior to initiation. To switch these cut off switches takes a concerted and deliberate effort.[/color]

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I'm confused. Is this saying that both pilots were involved or could a single pilot turn it off temporarily somehow?

They were found in the pn position and data shows both engines attempted an auto restart.

The pilot at the controls would have been hands busy so if they were toggled off, it was the pilot not in control, and an obvious breach of procedure.

Two possibilities: the pilot not att the controls keilled both engines in a state that that pilot would have known was irrecoverable. That's a mass murder suicide.

The other is that an electrical glitch made the control circuitry react as if both those switches were turned off, one pilot busy flying asks the other about the fuel switches due to both engines Guinea, and they attempt a restart by toggling the switches and fail to recover. This is only plausible if the flying pilot sees an indication of fuel loss other than observing the switches themselves, which are on the center panel between both pilots. This seems implausible because the pilot flying didn't ask IF the fuel was cut off, but WHY it was done. The other denied having done it, which would be odd to do if the flying pilot literally saw it though. Why lie?

I'll add a Third possibility: is massive brain fart by co-pilot to reach for fuel switches instead of something else related to takeoff, then denying the error

Pretty sure there's already a thread about this on page one.

agent-maroon said:

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Quote:

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[color=#000000]Any engine shut down control, whether it's a fuel control switch or an Engine Fire T-Handle has to be pointed at and confirmed by BOTH pilots prior to initiation. To switch these cut off switches takes a concerted and deliberate effort.[/color]

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I'm confused. Is this saying that both pilots were involved or could a single pilot turn it off temporarily somehow?

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A single pilot can turn it off, but procedures are both should point at it and confirm it should be actuated.

agent-maroon said:

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Quote:

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[color=#000000]Any engine shut down control, whether it's a fuel control switch or an Engine Fire T-Handle has to be pointed at and confirmed by BOTH pilots prior to initiation. To switch these cut off switches takes a concerted and deliberate effort.[/color]

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I'm confused. Is this saying that both pilots were involved or could a single pilot turn it off temporarily somehow?

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Think it's saying that procedure is both pilots involved in the cutoff, but in the air India incident it appears one pilot cutoff out of procedure

This guy used to be a pilot and goes over the report. Also at 1:30 shows pic of the switches and he talks about it is almost impossible to accidently hit them and shut them off.

OK so the procedure is for both pilots to confirm & initiate, but it's physically possible for a single pilot to do so outside of protocol. That makes sense.

rynning said:

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Pretty sure there's already a thread about this on page one.

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There's always one

Why would the RAT deploy if engines were cutoff intentionally or not intentionally?

I, like a lot of posters here, have a lot in common with airline engineers. We all believe there is safety in redundancy

Crazy. Many commercial pilots including myself gave our opinions as to possible causes of the accident. It's hopeless when we have to include insane pilots as a possible cause. Hope we don't see this at our US carriers like we've seen at EgyptAir, German Wings and now possibly Air India.

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[color=#000000]Why would the RAT deploy if engines were cutoff intentionally or not intentionally?[/color]

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To provide emergency power!!

v1rotate92 said:

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Crazy. Many commercial pilots including myself gave our opinions as to possible causes of the accident. It's hopeless when we have to include insane pilots as a possible cause. Hope we don't see this at our US carriers like we've seen at EgyptAir, German Wings and now possibly Air India.

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You can start by making sure there's no trans pilots

If the data reveals no issues with the aircraft prior to both fuel cutoff switches being selected to cutoff at 800' immediately after takeoff it means only one thing to me. One of the pilots was a sociopath.

jt2hunt said:

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v1rotate92 said:

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Crazy. Many commercial pilots including myself gave our opinions as to possible causes of the accident. It's hopeless when we have to include insane pilots as a possible cause. Hope we don't see this at our US carriers like we've seen at EgyptAir, German Wings and now possibly Air India.

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You can start by making sure there's no trans pilots

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Yep. You can research the administration that pressured the FAA to allow it

Two is one and one is none!

Can you double post that for me please ???

jt2hunt said:

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Two is one and one is none!

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Amen brother. Hell I'm just an IT guy but we believe the same in our industry.

jt2hunt said:

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Two is one and one is none!

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Not following…
Are you saying the Fuel Cutoff switches need a redundant system?

Everything V1 has said is spot on.

Cut off switches are below the throttles because that area on the console has very little hand traffic.

Boeing switches are designed to be difficult so as to inhibit erroneous activation. Used to be they were all lever type switches, now most are latched in or out push buttons.

Interesting that Airbus switches are all push "buttons" - except for the fuel cut-off switches.

Also, the standard latch buttons are in the "In/ lights out" configuration for engine start. As the engines come up to speed, aircraft systems come on line automatically. This is a far cry from the old days when you only turn a system on or off with the associated switch.

Sorry, rambling a bit here…

Martin Q. Blank said:

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ToddyHill said:

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Hey Southlake...hope all is well and that you're enjoying retirement!

I've read those cutoff switches are almost impossible to turn off by accident. In your opinion, do you think it was pilot suicide?

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That close to the ground?

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That's when it is unrecoverable.

"Why you cut off?!"

"I did not cut off!"

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Par for the course, really.

Not surprised by this exchange at all.

Eso si, Que es said:

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Why would the RAT deploy if engines were cutoff intentionally or not intentionally?

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Dual engine shutdown + airborne condition (wheel weight sensor shows plane off the ground) then the rat deploys automatically as dual engine shot down kills the power generation and triggers the backup.

Stat Monitor Repairman said:

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"Why you cut off?!"

"I did not cut off!"

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Par for the course, really.

Not surprised by this exchange at all.

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Kindly do the needful.

If offered, I would select the option when purchasing that allowed for picking a white male veteran captain and first officer and would pay 30% more for the privilege of that option.

Tom Fox said:

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If offered, I would select the option when purchasing that allowed for picking a white male veteran captain and first officer and would pay 30% more for the privilege of that option.

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You would get the female pretending to be a male

EX TEXASEX said:

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I like a lot of posters here, have a lot in common with airline engineers. We all believe there is safety in redundancy

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There's also safety in redundancy.

The Sun said:

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Stat Monitor Repairman said:

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"Why you cut off?!"

"I did not cut off!"

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Par for the course, really.

Not surprised by this exchange at all.

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Kindly do the needful.

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On a scale of 1-10, 10 being best, are you satisfied with your help today?

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[color=#000000]On a scale of 1-10, 10 being best, are you satisfied with your help today?[/color]

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Unfortunately, I know exactly what you are talking about!!