F16 Doctors: How much overhead costs do you have due to regulation?

1,870 Views | 30 Replies | Last: 9 mo ago by ts5641
TheEternalOptimist
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Was talking to a retired family doctor who is in his early 80s.

Said he used to run his clinic with only 4 employees - 2 nurses, 1 receptionist, and 1 recordkeeper who also did reception.

Said now its so regulated that it's almost impossible to run a practice like he did.

I would venture that medical malpractice has to be skyrocketing too?

Would love to get Aggie doctors take on how/if the regulatory compliance and lack of tort protections are driving up costs for your services.
javajaws
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This doesn't directly answer your question, but some anecdotal evidence of our healthcare system being bloated and near fraudulent.

Had to go to the ER a couple weeks ago because I got a cut on the top of my head. 2 staples and 30 minutes later I was done - no scans, no tests, nothing else. Literally walk in, clean out the cut, and hammer a couple of staples into my skull.

Yesterday I got the bill. After raking in $3700 from my insurance I guess they decided they needed more money so they billed me for another $800. 30 minutes for $4500 sure sounds like a lot of overhead to me.
Gator92
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Take me to the Vet...


AtticusMatlock
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The ACA made CMS billing a lot more complicated. It takes a lot more time and paperwork, and that's not even considering the expense of the electronic medical record systems. The goal was to reduce fraud but whatever savings the taxpayers are getting on fraud reduction have just been passed on in higher costs because of the expense of all of the requirements.

One of the goals of the ACA was to drive private practitioners out of business and for people to have one-stop "health homes" consisting of primary care and specialists who would all work for one big organization and share information. It was designed to create efficiency in the system but does reduce choice and provider freedom.

Very difficult to effectively run a clinic without being part of a larger organization to share resources.
MelvinUdall
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javajaws said:

This doesn't directly answer your question, but some anecdotal evidence of our healthcare system being bloated and near fraudulent.

Had to go to the ER a couple weeks ago because I got a cut on the top of my head. 2 staples and 30 minutes later I was done - no scans, no tests, nothing else. Literally walk in, clean out the cut, and hammer a couple of staples into my skull.

Yesterday I got the bill. After raking in $3700 from my insurance I guess they decided they needed more money so they billed me for another $800. 30 minutes for $4500 sure sounds like a lot of overhead to me.


Not doubting your story, but was the $3700 the actual charges, but not what was billed to insurance and the $800 was just the cost to you? Are you on a HDHP?
aggiedent
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Regulatory changes have certainly occurred, but nothing drastic. Maybe a couple extra hours of paperwork and a couple hundreds dollars more a year.

My malpractice insurance has increased probably on par with inflation……so no drastic jumps.

The biggest single pain in the butt is insurance. Many practitioners have to hire extra staff solely to deal with insurance companies. The downhill slide began with the creation of "managed care." A total misnomer. Should have been named "Cheap Ass Care" where they make everyone jump through enough hoops to feel as though you were a trained dog. Obamacare just speeded up the process.

So we've arrived at a point in time where we have the best healthcare on the planet, with perhaps the worst delivery system to get it………..and if you have bad insurance………you assuredly won't get the best care.
Funky Winkerbean
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How many are employed to just chase paper with insurance companies?
traxter
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Sorry, this post got long. Summary - insurance is a huge problem. Regulations add cost, but not as much. Private equity is also ruining healthcare.

Insurance and billing is huge. A long time ago, doctors just said "a regular appointment is X dollars, if you need this procedure it's Y dollars, etc." Now, no one knows what things cost because everyone's insurance is different. And insurance companies will use any excuse to cut payments to doctors. I knew a team of 3 nurses at one hospital that worked full time just fighting insurance companies denials of ER visits. They told me on average, they would be able to get 1 million dollars back per month from insurance, with their biggest month being 3 million.

Another thing insurance does is prior authorizations. They make it incredibly difficult for doctors to prescribe certain medications, order certain tests, and such. The doctors have to get on the phone or write a letter to insurance requesting approval. And it's supposed to be another doctor on the other end, in the same specialty. However frequently it's nurses or other non physicians reviewing the requests. Some insurances also have a policy of default denial, forcing the physician to resubmit, at which point they'll actually review it. If you're trying to see enough patients to make a profit, this eats into your time to see patients, or your personal time.

The ACA made it illegal for doctors to own hospitals, so many healthcare facilities have very highly paid healthcare administrators at the top that make quite a bit more than the physicians. And like most large corporations, they make it difficult for the small guy to run a business. So lots of private practices are getting purchased by private equity. There are cases where private equity purchases hospitals, then sells the land to a realestate firm, who then lease the land back to the hospital at a significantly higher rate, which saddles the hospital with debt.

There are regulations, but I don't think they're that huge. Certain things cost money, such as electronic medical records. These really are the future (present now). Most physicians prefer paper because it's faster, and cheaper to have a filing cabinet than to pay for an electronic system subscription. But electronic does allow it to be sent easier to other physicians, and to export to a patient when they move. Lots of problems with interoperability within systems, as they all want you to stay with them, so they make it hard to migrate.

In the case of the ER bill above, most of the cost is fake money. The hospital bills insurance huge amounts of money in hopes that it might get a few hundred out of it. Then the ER doctor is not employed by the hospital, so they bill separately (or the company they work for does). In general, they have to bill everyone the same, otherwise they're committing insurance fraud. But they get different reimbursement rates from different insurances. And you can negotiate a cash pay.

Everyone thinks doctors are getting rich, and some are. Most are certainly better off than 90% of Americans. But there are certain specialties (like pediatrics) that do not make much. Depending on where they work, and whether they accept medicaid, they could be making less than 6 figures. Physician income has actually decreased, when you account for inflation.

There's a lot of hatred towards the medical community right now, thanks to COVID. And everyone's access to google is making everyone a doctor. But there is seriously a lot of pressure for young people to decide not to go to med school. When you think about it, after college, it's an additional 7 years minimum to be an indepdnently practicing physician. During those 7 years you're spending 4 years living off loans and acquiring debt. And then 3+ years of living off a resident salary of 55-70k, depending on which part of the country you live. They have to move for medical school, and then for residency, often without a ton of say in where they get to be a resident. Physicians often delay starting a family, purchasing a home, saving for retirement, and life in general until they're done with residency. If the stress is going to increase, and the payoff decrease, we're just going to see a greater decline in physicians.


aggiedent
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Funky Winkerbean said:

How many are employed to just chase paper with insurance companies?


For me……..because I do very few managed care plans…….only 1. That said, I have a dermatologist friend who had to hire 4 employees to do nothing but insurance reimbursement. He went from 6 employees to 10.
sam callahan
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Overregulation is a problem.

But make no mistake, insurance companies deliberately use oppressive and burdensome procedures as a rationing mechanism.
Nomsag1
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I've been practicing for 16 years as an oral surgeon. My overhead has gone up 3-4 times what it was when I opened. The bad news is insurance reimbursement has stayed relatively the same (No increase with inflation) I feel like I'm working harder for less reimbursement.
Rex Racer
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TheEternalOptimist said:

Was talking to a retired family doctor who is in his early 80s.

Said he used to run his clinic with only 4 employees - 2 nurses, 1 receptionist, and 1 recordkeeper who also did reception.

Said now its so regulated that it's almost impossible to run a practice like he did.

I would venture that medical malpractice has to be skyrocketing too?

Would love to get Aggie doctors take on how/if the regulatory compliance and lack of tort protections are driving up costs for your services.
Your doctor has gone the opposite direction of my wife's endocrinologist. When we first started seeing him, he had a large suite. Then Obamacare hit, and he stopped taking insurance. He just charges a flat rate per visit. He trimmed down to a smaller suite at another location and trimmed his staff drastically to one nurse and one receptionist. Then he moved to a smaller suite and let go of his nurse and receptionist. Then he moved into another medical practice and has one exam room he uses, and email his ex-wife or text him for an appointment, and it's very hit or miss as to whether or not you get a response. Heaven help you if you have to postpone an appointment. You might not ever see him again.
schmellba99
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AtticusMatlock said:

The ACA made CMS billing a lot more complicated. It takes a lot more time and paperwork, and that's not even considering the expense of the electronic medical record systems. The goal was to reduce fraud but whatever savings the taxpayers are getting on fraud reduction have just been passed on in higher costs because of the expense of all of the requirements.

One of the goals of the ACA was to drive private practitioners out of business and for people to have one-stop "health homes" consisting of primary care and specialists who would all work for one big organization and share information. It was designed to create efficiency in the system but does reduce choice and provider freedom.

Very difficult to effectively run a clinic without being part of a larger organization to share resources.
No, it wasn't.
AtticusMatlock
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Hard to respond to your post unless I know what you.are disagreeing with.
bigtruckguy3500
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Patient centered medical home is a concept that can, when correctly implemented, increase efficient delivery of healthcare and reduce costs. The problem is you have to have buy in from everyone, and you have to be a part of a large medical system to benefit from it.

Kaiser Permanente is one large system that does the patient centered medical home that I believe AtticusMatlock is talking about. They're actually a pretty good healthcare system from what I have heard. Lots of physicians that work there are happy working there.

slaughtr
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I teach Residents.

None of them are going into business for themselves anymore. Like, zero percent.
Funky Winkerbean
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What seems lost in everything you mentioned is the patient. The one needing service and funds the entire circus. My disdain for medical care is centered here but COVID did make it worse.
Sid Farkas
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Gator92 said:

Take me to the Vet...

hey, if a vet is good enough for Smuckers, he's good enough for me and Kramer.
TexasAggie73
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Many different issues with the cost if medical care, from insurance companies and the different billing they require to pre authorization., to set billing allowed.
Just take a look at EOB's and there is no one that someone can make sense of it. The whole system is crazy. My wife left private practice because she got tired of fighting the insurance companies. And this was 30 years ago
traxter
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Funky Winkerbean said:

What seems lost in everything you mentioned is the patient. The one needing service and funds the entire circus. My disdain for medical care is centered here but COVID did make it worse.
The patient doesn't really fund the circus anymore, insurance and the government does (for the most part). And thus, they control things. The uninsured, or those with high deductible plans, are stuck suffering because of that.

There are plenty of doctors who have gone to direct patient care models, where they do not take insurance. They just charge cash for care. People can submit claims to insurance themselves, but the doctor won't accept the insurance. And the patients and the physicians in this model are both happier.


Macpappy99
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A standardized and transparent billing/payment system would go a long ways towards reducing cost. While hospitals and doctors provide detailed information on specific billing forms, insurance companies do not have to provide information back at that same level of detail. This leaves the providers having translate what the insurance company has sent to know if they were paid for everything correctly. I can honestly say that this is something that Medicare does better than the for profits.
waitwhat?
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javajaws said:

This doesn't directly answer your question, but some anecdotal evidence of our healthcare system being bloated and near fraudulent.

Had to go to the ER a couple weeks ago because I got a cut on the top of my head. 2 staples and 30 minutes later I was done - no scans, no tests, nothing else. Literally walk in, clean out the cut, and hammer a couple of staples into my skull.

Yesterday I got the bill. After raking in $3700 from my insurance I guess they decided they needed more money so they billed me for another $800. 30 minutes for $4500 sure sounds like a lot of overhead to me.
On the flip side, I broke my foot a few years ago and went to an ER, got the painkillers and xray and cast and all that stuff, and simply never received a bill.
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IIIHorn
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javajaws said:

This doesn't directly answer your question, but some anecdotal evidence of our healthcare system being bloated and near fraudulent.

Had to go to the ER a couple weeks ago because I got a cut on the top of my head. 2 staples and 30 minutes later I was done - no scans, no tests, nothing else. Literally walk in, clean out the cut, and hammer a couple of staples into my skull.

Yesterday I got the bill. After raking in $3700 from my insurance I guess they decided they needed more money so they billed me for another $800. 30 minutes for $4500 sure sounds like a lot of overhead to me.
The staples were overhead.
Madagascar
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Thanks for your detailed breakdown! I've found better care with concierge services also. It's sad that's what it's come to both for physicians and for hospital systems. Sometimes I just don't understand how places can be so poorly run and so desperate for money at the same time for so long. Usually one of those factors gives but it seems like more and more hospitals are just going under which hurts everyone at the end of the day.

In addition to problems from the ACA, I'd also like to see EMTALA repealed so we can stop throwing money away on people who will never pay and drive up the cost of service.
docb
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TheEternalOptimist said:

Was talking to a retired family doctor who is in his early 80s.

Said he used to run his clinic with only 4 employees - 2 nurses, 1 receptionist, and 1 recordkeeper who also did reception.

Said now its so regulated that it's almost impossible to run a practice like he did.

I would venture that medical malpractice has to be skyrocketing too?

Would love to get Aggie doctors take on how/if the regulatory compliance and lack of tort protections are driving up costs for your services.
I'm certainly not in my 80s so I can't speak to some of what the above doctor dealt with early in his career. But I can certainly say that for myself the insurance allowable fees if you are a preferred provider have not increased at all in lines with our overhead (inflation, covid price hikes, employee costs, employee health insurance increases, etc.) Really can't see where regulations has anything to do with it. I quit being a preferred provider for all but two insurance companies. And yes I would say I make less money than I did 10-15 years ago comparatively even though I work just as hard.

The other maybe even more alarming thing in medical/dental is the acquisition of practices by private equity groups. Practices used to have to be owned by a doctor so I am not sure what happened. What I am seeing is ridiculous charges and treatment plans by these offices. They seem to view the patient more as how much money can we generate over what does this patient need to get better. Honestly I am glad I am closer to the end of my career than the beginning.
Pizza
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javajaws said:

This doesn't directly answer your question, but some anecdotal evidence of our healthcare system being bloated and near fraudulent.

Had to go to the ER a couple weeks ago because I got a cut on the top of my head. 2 staples and 30 minutes later I was done - no scans, no tests, nothing else. Literally walk in, clean out the cut, and hammer a couple of staples into my skull.

Yesterday I got the bill. After raking in $3700 from my insurance I guess they decided they needed more money so they billed me for another $800. 30 minutes for $4500 sure sounds like a lot of overhead to me.


One of my buddies developed a fluid filled cyst over his eyebrow. The hospital bill would've been well over 5k to have it removed.

He said F that, poked it with a sewing needle, the fluid drained out, his forehead looked completely normal after that, and the cyst never came back.
schmellba99
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AtticusMatlock said:

Hard to respond to your post unless I know what you.are disagreeing with.
The idea that anything from the government was designed to be more efficient is laughable. There was never any intent at all for anything to be more efficient - that is the antithesis of government. Everything they have ever done has resulted (almost always by design) in a more bloated bureaucracy that also ends up causing far more work in the private sector to adhere to regulations.

Now, was there in some back office with an intern the intent of doing good? Maybe. But that's as far as that intent ever got.
Ags4DaWin
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traxter said:

Sorry, this post got long. Summary - insurance is a huge problem. Regulations add cost, but not as much. Private equity is also ruining healthcare.

Insurance and billing is huge. A long time ago, doctors just said "a regular appointment is X dollars, if you need this procedure it's Y dollars, etc." Now, no one knows what things cost because everyone's insurance is different. And insurance companies will use any excuse to cut payments to doctors. I knew a team of 3 nurses at one hospital that worked full time just fighting insurance companies denials of ER visits. They told me on average, they would be able to get 1 million dollars back per month from insurance, with their biggest month being 3 million.

Another thing insurance does is prior authorizations. They make it incredibly difficult for doctors to prescribe certain medications, order certain tests, and such. The doctors have to get on the phone or write a letter to insurance requesting approval. And it's supposed to be another doctor on the other end, in the same specialty. However frequently it's nurses or other non physicians reviewing the requests. Some insurances also have a policy of default denial, forcing the physician to resubmit, at which point they'll actually review it. If you're trying to see enough patients to make a profit, this eats into your time to see patients, or your personal time.

The ACA made it illegal for doctors to own hospitals, so many healthcare facilities have very highly paid healthcare administrators at the top that make quite a bit more than the physicians. And like most large corporations, they make it difficult for the small guy to run a business. So lots of private practices are getting purchased by private equity. There are cases where private equity purchases hospitals, then sells the land to a realestate firm, who then lease the land back to the hospital at a significantly higher rate, which saddles the hospital with debt.

There are regulations, but I don't think they're that huge. Certain things cost money, such as electronic medical records. These really are the future (present now). Most physicians prefer paper because it's faster, and cheaper to have a filing cabinet than to pay for an electronic system subscription. But electronic does allow it to be sent easier to other physicians, and to export to a patient when they move. Lots of problems with interoperability within systems, as they all want you to stay with them, so they make it hard to migrate.

In the case of the ER bill above, most of the cost is fake money. The hospital bills insurance huge amounts of money in hopes that it might get a few hundred out of it. Then the ER doctor is not employed by the hospital, so they bill separately (or the company they work for does). In general, they have to bill everyone the same, otherwise they're committing insurance fraud. But they get different reimbursement rates from different insurances. And you can negotiate a cash pay.

Everyone thinks doctors are getting rich, and some are. Most are certainly better off than 90% of Americans. But there are certain specialties (like pediatrics) that do not make much. Depending on where they work, and whether they accept medicaid, they could be making less than 6 figures. Physician income has actually decreased, when you account for inflation.

There's a lot of hatred towards the medical community right now, thanks to COVID. And everyone's access to google is making everyone a doctor. But there is seriously a lot of pressure for young people to decide not to go to med school. When you think about it, after college, it's an additional 7 years minimum to be an indepdnently practicing physician. During those 7 years you're spending 4 years living off loans and acquiring debt. And then 3+ years of living off a resident salary of 55-70k, depending on which part of the country you live. They have to move for medical school, and then for residency, often without a ton of say in where they get to be a resident. Physicians often delay starting a family, purchasing a home, saving for retirement, and life in general until they're done with residency. If the stress is going to increase, and the payoff decrease, we're just going to see a greater decline in physicians.





Great summary

After my experience I told my kids to never even consider a career in healthcare.
JW
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Hospitals and Insurance are killing it
traxter
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Madagascar said:


In addition to problems from the ACA, I'd also like to see EMTALA repealed so we can stop throwing money away on people who will never pay and drive up the cost of service.
I understand that frustration of people that drive up costs without paying. But, I don't think you fully get what EMTALA does.

-If you show up to a hospital and you don't have insurance on you, or cash, the hosptial can't say "sorry, go down the street to the county hospital"
-If you are in the ER, and getting great service, but they don't have a specialist that you need or equipment necessary to treat at that hospital, that ER can call another one and tell them what's wrong, and the only reason the other hospital can deny a transfer is if they 1) lack the capability you need, or 2) lack the bed space to take another patient
-If your wife is in labor and normally gets seen at a different hospital, the ER you show up to can't say "sorry, go to your own hospital"

Those are the big ones, but there are more.
ts5641
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Trump and Musk have said multiple times we have to eliminate these burdensome regulations that are choking most businesses.
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