I just returned from the 78th annual relay conference at Texas A&M. This conference was started in 1948 as a way for electrical engineers to collaborate on the best way to design and set protection relays for generators, transmission and distribution lines, and industrial loads.

The past couple of years has been dedicated to how to deal with inverter based resources (IBRs). These are generating units that rely on inverters for generation (solar, wind, and battery storage). The problem with inverters is they do not act in a predictable fashion like synchronous machines (turbine generators).

If there is a fault on the system, synchronous machines slow down gradually, provide a lot of fault current, and provide predictable "signatures" in the fault current so that relays are able to detect the fault and isolate it with minimal loss to electric customers.

Inverters do not do this. They rapidly change frequency to protect themselves, provide very little fault current, and do not provide a "signature" so that our relays are not able to distinguish a true fault from normal load current. This is a problem because the relays may not trip breakers when they need to. Or they'll trip when they're not supposed to.

If you look at the papers from the past three years, about 1/3 - 1/2 are dedicated to this problem and proposals to how to solve it.
https://na.eventscloud.com/website/78210/archive/

From listening to the presentations this week, it can be summed up from one such presentation by PG&E.
https://na.eventscloud.com/file_uploads/c215cc72a075d4060a5016e0e13df5c7_1-EventAnalysis-InnovativeToolsandStrategiesforProtectionEngineers.pdf

The relevant section is about half way down: Inconsistent IBR Fault Current Contributions. We may do our best to come up with a way to model IBRs and set our relays in a way we think they will behave. But this was a real world example of the SAME inverter during two faults behaving in two entirely different manners.

I believe the US is due for a regional blackout and it will be caused by this issue. One of the last papers yesterday was by Entergy presenting on line protection solutions for IBR interconnections.
https://na.eventscloud.com/file_uploads/b8e0753fbd9fe32e19801d92f3b48c7f_4-LineProtectionSolutionsforMultipleIBRInterconnectionsinanIncumbentUtilityInfrastructure.pdf

In passing they mention they are moving from 2% renewables in 2023 to 25% by 2030. As it stands, we have sufficient synchronous machines with enough inertia for the relays to see and isolate faults, but unless we require inverter manufacturers to design their products to address this issue, we're going to have a problem when more of these are connected to the grid.

Whatever Venkman, I said shut it down.

balderdash

Glad there's smart like you to understand all of this!

Another round of reciprocal tariffs should fix this, right?

Quote:

---

In passing they mention they are moving from 2% renewables in 2023 to 25% by 2030

---

I'm curious if this accounts for the change in administration? I'm all for renewable energy, I am just against subsidizing the hell out of it - especially given our abundance of Natural Gas reserves and existing infrastructure to get it where it is needed for power generation. I think Trump has the same approach but I really don't know.

Handle it, Venkman

vulnerable /= due.

The fact this is a major topic in your industry without handwaving or minimizing seems positive to me.

So the variable nature of the renewables is causing yet another problem?

And instead of solving the issue, we're just ramping up, full speed ahead, without concern for the consequences?

Sounds about right.

lead said:

---

vulnerable /= due.

---

I say "due" just looking at the interval since the last one. I just think IBRs are going to cause it.

Northeast Blackout (1965)
New York City (1977)
West Coast Blackout (1982)
Western North America Blackout (1996)
Northeast Blackout (2003)
Southwest Blackout (2011)

Captain Pablo said:

---

Handle it, Venkman

---

No man, we need a real engineer.

My memes during a blackout...

I watch Practical Engineering all the time on YouTube and Brady discussed this on a vid a few months back. We've got a serious issue going forward with the move to renewables. Blackouts are going to become more frequent and widespread.

I assume lots of expensive synchronous condensers is the solution? Does the ratepayer cover the cost of those?

Logos Stick said:

---

I watch Practical Engineering all the time on YouTube and Brady discussed this on a vid a few months back. We've got a serious issue going forward with the move to renewables. Blackouts are going to become more frequent and widespread.

---

I refuse to take any complaining about energy seriously until they start mentioning nuclear. Its the solution to the energy issues we have. Until then everyone is just blowing hot air, which tells me the issue isn't that serious.

Quote:

---

Archbishop (Mike): Lenny, officially, the Church will not take any position on the religious implications of these phenomena. Personally, Lenny, I think it's a sign from God. But don't quote me on that.

Peter Venkman: I think that's a smart move, Mike.

Mayor Lenny: Now, I'm not going to call a press conference and tell everyone to start praying.

Winston Zeddemore: I'm, uh, Winston Zeddemore, your Honor. I've only been with the company for a couple of weeks, but I got to tell you: these things are real. Since I joined these men, I have seen **** that'll turn you white!

Peter Venkman: Well, you can believe Mr. Pecker...

Walter Peck: My name is "Walter Peck."

Peter Venkman: ...or you could accept the fact that this city is headed for a disaster of biblical proportions.

Mayor Lenny: What do you mean, "biblical"?

Ray Stantz: What he means is Old Testament, Mr. Mayor. Real Wrath-of-God type stuff!

Peter Venkman: Exactly.

Ray Stantz: Fire and brimstone coming down from the skies! Rivers and seas boiling!

Egon Spengler: 40 years of darkness! Earthquakes, volcanoes!

Winston Zeddemore: The dead rising from the grave!

Peter Venkman: Human sacrifice, cats and dogs living together, mass hysteria!

Mayor Lenny: ENOUGH, I get the point! And what if you're wrong?

Peter Venkman: If I'm wrong, nothing happens! We go to jail; peacefully, quietly. We'll enjoy it! But if I'm right, and we can stop this thing... Lenny, you will have saved the lives of [faces lights up] millions of registered voters. [Mayor slightly smiles and the Archbishop of New York smiles and nods in agreement]

Walter Peck: I don't believe you're seriously considering listening to these men.

Mayor: [contemplates; to officers while pointing at Peck] Get him out of here.

Peter Venkman: [smirks] Bye. [an officer tries to escort him out of the room]

Walter Peck: I'll fix you, Venkman. I'm going to fix you!

Peter Venkman: I'm going to get you a nice fruit basket. [thumbs at Peck; to Ray] I'm going to miss him!

Walter Peck: All right, all right! [leaves the room on his own]

Mayor Lenny: [to Ghostbusters] We got work to do. Now what do you need from me?

---

So, Venkman, will there be dogs and cats living together?

Cowbird said:

---

Glad there's smart like you to understand all of this!

---

When your 2yo shlts his diaper, it smells like shlt and is easily detectable. Oh, he pooped, let me change him. > traditional power generation faults, identified, cleared, crisis averted.

Imagine your 2yo filled his diaper but it smelled like coffee, or cut grass, or dryer sheets, or cat vomit. You gotta figure out what the smell is, where it came from, and by then he's smearing the new sofa. -> inverted based faults, harder to identify, turn off too little or too much. or too late, then bad things happen

More inverter fear porn. Just another day on TA.

nm

So glad I have a generator now.

How long could the power be out? Worst case?

Tom Fox said:

---

How long could the power be out? Worst case?

---

Insert, "That's racist" gif.

ttha_aggie_09 said:

---

Tom Fox said:

---

How long could the power be out? Worst case?

---

---

That's kind of my question. Are we talking a day, a week, a month or F-O-R-E-V-E-R.

rocky the dog said:

---

My memes during a blackout...

---

Well, this is not shocking news.

Tom Fox said:

---

How long could the power be out? Worst case?

---

That's a good question. They usually last less than a day up to a week. I'm not sure there has been one with IBRs as a significant source or what it would look like to cold start with them.

Dr. Venkman said:

---

Tom Fox said:

---

How long could the power be out? Worst case?

---

That's a good question. They usually last less than a day up to a week. I'm not sure there has been one with IBRs as a significant source or what it would look like to cold start with them.

---

Best guess?

Cowbird said:

---

Glad there's smart like you to understand all of this!

---

I go to this conference to hear the smart people (PhDs at utilities) present on their solutions. And the past couple of years has me worried.

Tom Fox said:

---

Dr. Venkman said:

---

Tom Fox said:

---

How long could the power be out? Worst case?

---

That's a good question. They usually last less than a day up to a week. I'm not sure there has been one with IBRs as a significant source or what it would look like to cold start with them.

---

Best guess?

---

I'd say worst case is a week in some areas like we saw during derecho 2021.

Dr. Venkman said:

---

Tom Fox said:

---

Dr. Venkman said:

---

Tom Fox said:

---

How long could the power be out? Worst case?

---

That's a good question. They usually last less than a day up to a week. I'm not sure there has been one with IBRs as a significant source or what it would look like to cold start with them.

---

Best guess?

---

I'd say worst case is a week in some areas like we saw during derecho 2021.

---

Perfect. Thanks. I am prepared for that.

Uh, 220, 221. Whatever it takes.

Not to beat a dead horse.

But the blackout to fear is one associated with a solar discharge (solar flares and/or Coronal Mass Ejection).

The most famous of these was the Carrington Event, 1859. The current generated by the shifting magnetic potentials was amplified by actin on long wires (telegraph lines), acting as antennas. Literally lit up the equipment and set it on fire.

The same force acting on our power grid, at a minimum could make the CA wildfires look paltry, and at worst it would take many years to replace all the damaged power transmission equipment. Not sure what it would do to residential and industrial equipment attached to the line or to satellites etc.

All in all, when the next one comes, it will likely be a very bad time.

Isn't the answer to just isolate the inverter from the grid with energy storage (battery)? On my residential system, the solar is just charging the batteries, and the inverter takes the DC from the battery and inverts it AC for the house. Battery technology is a lot better at detecting anomalies, I assume because there is usually some sort of "smart charging" circuitry applied to it that picks up on too low or too high voltage. You could use feedback from the battery system instead of the inverter to isolate problem sites?

Is this something reactive power from the inverters or capacitor banks mitigate though?