infinity ag said:

---

Pookers said:

---

infinity ag said:

---

Pookers said:

---

infinity ag said:

---

Pookers said:

---

AJ02 said:

---

Most of the outsourcing I deal with always seems to go to India. And don't get me wrong, in general I consider Indians very intelligent people.

But they are book smart. They don't seem to have the "common sense" and ability to think outside the box on issues. They follow a set list of rules, and if something falls outside of that, it's like their brain short circuits and they kick it out. It's REALLY frustrating to deal with some of the boneheaded things they do that I have to go back and fix.

And don't get me started on relying on them for tech support with the time difference. I can submit a tech ticket at work, and at 3 am my cell phone is buzzing asking if they can remote in to my laptop to work on my issue. Then when I log on in the morning, they're offline. Repeat again the next night.

Then after 3 days of this, I get an email saying my ticket was closed due to failure to respond.

---

What's the average IQ of India again?

---

Pookers, that is a strawman. No one can accurately judge what an average IQ of a country is. I know many in the US who are downright dumb too. Let's not assuage ourselves with this fake metric.

---

The answer is 76.

---

OT, but who arrived at it? And how? All they did is sample a few people out out 1.4 BILLION people and average it and come up with a number. Bah.

---

Dude, they literally **** in the streets.

---

Again, OT and irrelevant.
I have worked with many Indians and none of them do this. Let's focus on the scam happening in the US affecting all of us. People's bathroom habits have nothing to do with us.

---

I've seen H1B guys at my previous employer use the bathroom. Then go and gargle water from their hands at the sink, backwash their lunch into the sink, and then leave. The sink was gross and they didn't wash their hands. As Trump says, "They have to go back".

Not commenting on the IQ debate, but I will say at my last job they had signs posted inside each bathroom stall. Asking people not to stand on the toilet seat when going to the bathroom, and to not wash their feet in the sink.

Pookers said:

---

H1B visas are trash and so are the paper Americans who support them.

---

Tgis bull**** Tech-Right slander will not stand.

Pookers said:

---

H1B visas are trash and so are the paper Americans who support them.

---

H1Bs the way they are currently handled are trash.
But there needs to be a pathway for outstanding and exceptional talent to make it to the US.
Either you get them here, or they become competition.

Just in my immediate circle I know exceptionally bright talented H1s that were at the top of the class in their far more competitive schools in Asia, and now work for US startups or corporations.

You want those people here.

This is how it used to be before Y2K.
Any indian or chinese who came into the US before that was almost always exceptional. There was a high bar. Somewhere along the line, companies realized they could use it to suppress wages and opened the floodgates.
Which worked out well for me of course. But that's a different story

infinity ag said:

---

I was reading Teamblind.com and saw this.

The poster is an H1B visa holder working for Amazon and he feels that the long term plan is to offshore all jobs to India and China and slowly make the H1B visa irrelevant (since no jobs will remain in the US anyway). US companies will hire people in their own countries. This will allow Trump to claim a win and assuage the MAGA crowd.

If this is true, the country's tech sector will suffer in the long run (while making high profits short term) as all the innovation will happen overseas.

My take on this is the H1B visa scheme is severely games by US corporations and Indian/Chinese body-shopping companies. They all make money and US citizens do not benefit. H1B was supposed to bring in "top talent", but in reality, it is a cheap labor program to lower salaries in the US. I don't trust Elon Musk to fix this. Will Trump? Not sure, he seems to be in Elon's pocket when it comes to the tech sector.

Read the thread, people talk about the shady things these companies do with faking resumes, experience etc.

https://www.teamblind.com/post/H1B-sunset-is-coming-soon-and-you-know-it-1SoVx3MR



Here is an example of how US Citizens (and US green card holders) are barred from jobs in the US - this one is in Dallas. "No GC & USC".

---

H1Bs are a dog whistle.

Why have H1Bs when you can offshore entire divisions. That's the real issue. Jobs going overseas.

How do you combat that?

Better schooling for one.
Incentives to not outsource.
Lower taxes
Less regulation
Ways to reduce the debilitating impact of high insurance costs

deddog said:

---

infinity ag said:

---

I was reading Teamblind.com and saw this.

The poster is an H1B visa holder working for Amazon and he feels that the long term plan is to offshore all jobs to India and China and slowly make the H1B visa irrelevant (since no jobs will remain in the US anyway). US companies will hire people in their own countries. This will allow Trump to claim a win and assuage the MAGA crowd.

If this is true, the country's tech sector will suffer in the long run (while making high profits short term) as all the innovation will happen overseas.

My take on this is the H1B visa scheme is severely games by US corporations and Indian/Chinese body-shopping companies. They all make money and US citizens do not benefit. H1B was supposed to bring in "top talent", but in reality, it is a cheap labor program to lower salaries in the US. I don't trust Elon Musk to fix this. Will Trump? Not sure, he seems to be in Elon's pocket when it comes to the tech sector.

Read the thread, people talk about the shady things these companies do with faking resumes, experience etc.

https://www.teamblind.com/post/H1B-sunset-is-coming-soon-and-you-know-it-1SoVx3MR



Here is an example of how US Citizens (and US green card holders) are barred from jobs in the US - this one is in Dallas. "No GC & USC".

---

H1Bs are a dog whistle.

Why have H1Bs when you can offshore entire divisions. That's the real issue. Jobs going overseas.

How do you combat that?

Better schooling for one.
Incentives to not outsource.
Lower taxes
Less regulation
Ways to reduce the debilitating impact of high insurance costs

---

These are just tired old conservative talking points that have failed us that people regurgitate without applying any thought. Limbaugh said it (in 2010) so it must be right.

None of those will work in the short term. Those take 30 years to work out, as it has taken 30 years for corps to destroy American tech talent pool.
We will be all hollowed out by the time you wake up in 2055.

The only thing that will work is Trump wielding a big stick and telling the scummy CEOs to hiring in the US or face penalties. Nothing else will work. You are being naive if you think being nice and trusting corporations to do the right thing will work. Corporations by nature want everything for nothing. That is their job, can't blame them. It is the Govt's job to not allow that. Our Govt's have historically bent over to corporations.

I am all for MORE regulation. MORE taxes if you don't hire in the US. Sure, pay incentives to not outsource. Better schooling should happen regardless of this issue.

Only someone like Trump can fix this. I don't think anyone else can or will.

deddog said:

---

Pookers said:

---

H1B visas are trash and so are the paper Americans who support them.

---

H1Bs the way they are currently handled are trash.
But there needs to be a pathway for outstanding and exceptional talent to make it to the US.
Either you get them here, or they become competition.

Just in my immediate circle I know exceptionally bright talented H1s that were at the top of the class in their far more competitive schools in Asia, and now work for US startups or corporations.

You want those people here.

This is how it used to be before Y2K.
Any indian or chinese who came into the US before that was almost always exceptional. There was a high bar. Somewhere along the line, companies realized they could use it to suppress wages and opened the floodgates.
Which worked out well for me of course. But that's a different story

---

Agreed. I have two fantastic people on my team. Highly intelligent, hard workers. One from Venezuela, the other from Panama. I'd pick them any day over a lot of the American people I've worked with in the past.

AJ02 said:

---

deddog said:

---

Pookers said:

---

H1B visas are trash and so are the paper Americans who support them.

---

H1Bs the way they are currently handled are trash.
But there needs to be a pathway for outstanding and exceptional talent to make it to the US.
Either you get them here, or they become competition.

Just in my immediate circle I know exceptionally bright talented H1s that were at the top of the class in their far more competitive schools in Asia, and now work for US startups or corporations.

You want those people here.

This is how it used to be before Y2K.
Any indian or chinese who came into the US before that was almost always exceptional. There was a high bar. Somewhere along the line, companies realized they could use it to suppress wages and opened the floodgates.
Which worked out well for me of course. But that's a different story

---

Agreed. I have two fantastic people on my team. Highly intelligent, hard workers. One from Venezuela, the other from Panama. I'd pick them any day over a lot of the American people I've worked with in the past.

---

I am sure you also bring in Mohammed and Xiaohua into your own home, 2 nice boys who are well behaved and work hard, and would pick them above your own kids Steve and Melissa.

infinity ag said:

---

AJ02 said:

---

deddog said:

---

Pookers said:

---

H1B visas are trash and so are the paper Americans who support them.

---

H1Bs the way they are currently handled are trash.
But there needs to be a pathway for outstanding and exceptional talent to make it to the US.
Either you get them here, or they become competition.

Just in my immediate circle I know exceptionally bright talented H1s that were at the top of the class in their far more competitive schools in Asia, and now work for US startups or corporations.

You want those people here.

This is how it used to be before Y2K.
Any indian or chinese who came into the US before that was almost always exceptional. There was a high bar. Somewhere along the line, companies realized they could use it to suppress wages and opened the floodgates.
Which worked out well for me of course. But that's a different story

---

Agreed. I have two fantastic people on my team. Highly intelligent, hard workers. One from Venezuela, the other from Panama. I'd pick them any day over a lot of the American people I've worked with in the past.

---

I am sure you also bring in Mohammed and Xiaohua into your own home, 2 nice boys who are well behaved and work hard, and would pick them above your own kids Steve and Melissa.

---

Steve and Melissa are lazy and don't pick themselves up by their bootstraps like I did back in 1978. /Boomercon

infinity ag said:

---

Pookers said:

---

AJ02 said:

---

Most of the outsourcing I deal with always seems to go to India. And don't get me wrong, in general I consider Indians very intelligent people.

But they are book smart. They don't seem to have the "common sense" and ability to think outside the box on issues. They follow a set list of rules, and if something falls outside of that, it's like their brain short circuits and they kick it out. It's REALLY frustrating to deal with some of the boneheaded things they do that I have to go back and fix.

And don't get me started on relying on them for tech support with the time difference. I can submit a tech ticket at work, and at 3 am my cell phone is buzzing asking if they can remote in to my laptop to work on my issue. Then when I log on in the morning, they're offline. Repeat again the next night.

Then after 3 days of this, I get an email saying my ticket was closed due to failure to respond.

---

What's the average IQ of India again?

---

Pookers, that is a strawman. No one can accurately judge what an average IQ of a country is. I know many in the US who are downright dumb too. Let's not assuage ourselves with this fake metric.

---

It's not intellectual, it's cultural. India is very rigid with authority structure. You don't question, you don't deviate, you do exactly what the checklist says or you're in trouble. Where I work had this whole presentation on their office in India working to change that attitude. Except, they don't take into account turnover and the fact that people don't live at work. I don't know if it's naivety, stupidity, or liberal rose colored glasses that make them think it can work.

mickeyrig06sq3 said:

---

infinity ag said:

---

Pookers said:

---

AJ02 said:

---

Most of the outsourcing I deal with always seems to go to India. And don't get me wrong, in general I consider Indians very intelligent people.

But they are book smart. They don't seem to have the "common sense" and ability to think outside the box on issues. They follow a set list of rules, and if something falls outside of that, it's like their brain short circuits and they kick it out. It's REALLY frustrating to deal with some of the boneheaded things they do that I have to go back and fix.

And don't get me started on relying on them for tech support with the time difference. I can submit a tech ticket at work, and at 3 am my cell phone is buzzing asking if they can remote in to my laptop to work on my issue. Then when I log on in the morning, they're offline. Repeat again the next night.

Then after 3 days of this, I get an email saying my ticket was closed due to failure to respond.

---

What's the average IQ of India again?

---

Pookers, that is a strawman. No one can accurately judge what an average IQ of a country is. I know many in the US who are downright dumb too. Let's not assuage ourselves with this fake metric.

---

It's not intellectual, it's cultural. India is very rigid with authority structure. You don't question, you don't deviate, you do exactly what the checklist says or you're in trouble. Where I work had this whole presentation on their office in India working to change that attitude. Except, they don't take into account turnover and the fact that people don't live at work. I don't know if it's naivety, stupidity, or liberal rose colored glasses that make them think it can work.

---

I'd argue its both. And either way, we don't need them here. This "immigration" stuff is going to lead to some VERY difficult times down the road for everyone involved if history is any indication (it is).

Urban Ag said:

---

Pookers said:

---

H1B visas are trash and so are the paper Americans who support them.

---

Back in 2016/2017 I ended up inheriting some H1B's after an organization of about 30 people was merged in to mine. One gal was from China and had a baby (with her Chinese husband) about six month later. Not only did the kid get instant citizenship but she was able to take very generous full pay, four month leave the company offered. Thought that was kind of bullsh** but anyway. The others were Indian. When the first one's H1B was about to expire she came to me and asked me to sign off on the paperwork to renew. Having never dealt with one I told her I would review it, talk to HR, talk to legal, and advise her of her status when I could get to it. She got extremely pushy with me basically called me multiple times a day to whine about her immigration status. Her husband even called me at one point and got close to threatening. Told HR and legal I wanted to fire her they wouldn't let me. After reviewing the State Dept documents and the actual requirements I told legal there was absolutely no way I was signing off as it would be in fact fraud. The requirements are ridiculous. No employer is actually interviewing that many Americans and for a single role and also unable to find a qualified American. Complete BS.

Ultimately after my refusal to play ball they moved the H1B's out of my org and I guess over to someone that was willing to play the fraud game. Not me. Terrible program.

---

I've worked with many H-1Bs. I don't recall them ever needing to renew it. They were always able to get a green card within the allotted time window. Company always picked up the bill for the immigration lawyer.

mickeyrig06sq3 said:

---

Out of touch executive leadership is so focused on short term fiscal reports and not the long-term ramifications of the offshoring staffing strategy within IT. They all believe that they can outsource your entry and mid-level positions but keep your expert tier stateside. Great strategy, except the very pool you're grabbing your experts from is shrinking because there's no entry pipeline anymore, so you have no choice to go to H1B.

---

Boomers are absolute morons when it comes to tech. I am so tired of seeing the same garbage outsourcing from them over and over. Then they get shocked when they have zero young employees and their succession plans all go up in smoke.

infinity ag said:

---

Pookers said:

---

infinity ag said:

---

Pookers said:

---

AJ02 said:

---

Most of the outsourcing I deal with always seems to go to India. And don't get me wrong, in general I consider Indians very intelligent people.

But they are book smart. They don't seem to have the "common sense" and ability to think outside the box on issues. They follow a set list of rules, and if something falls outside of that, it's like their brain short circuits and they kick it out. It's REALLY frustrating to deal with some of the boneheaded things they do that I have to go back and fix.

And don't get me started on relying on them for tech support with the time difference. I can submit a tech ticket at work, and at 3 am my cell phone is buzzing asking if they can remote in to my laptop to work on my issue. Then when I log on in the morning, they're offline. Repeat again the next night.

Then after 3 days of this, I get an email saying my ticket was closed due to failure to respond.

---

What's the average IQ of India again?

---

Pookers, that is a strawman. No one can accurately judge what an average IQ of a country is. I know many in the US who are downright dumb too. Let's not assuage ourselves with this fake metric.

---

The answer is 76.

---

OT, but who arrived at it? And how? All they did is sample a few people out out 1.4 BILLION people and average it and come up with a number. Bah.

---

It's pretty easy with PISA scores, which correlate very well with IQ. The sample sizes used in PISA testing are more than enough to be statistically significant to represent the overall population average.

North East Asians always score the highest, then whites, then hispanics/middle easterners, and then blacks. Indians haven't taken the PISA nationally since 2009 but they ranked 72 out of 73 nations. They are not remotely like North East Asians at all from this standpoint.

infinity ag said:

---

Pookers said:

---

AJ02 said:

---

Most of the outsourcing I deal with always seems to go to India. And don't get me wrong, in general I consider Indians very intelligent people.

But they are book smart. They don't seem to have the "common sense" and ability to think outside the box on issues. They follow a set list of rules, and if something falls outside of that, it's like their brain short circuits and they kick it out. It's REALLY frustrating to deal with some of the boneheaded things they do that I have to go back and fix.

And don't get me started on relying on them for tech support with the time difference. I can submit a tech ticket at work, and at 3 am my cell phone is buzzing asking if they can remote in to my laptop to work on my issue. Then when I log on in the morning, they're offline. Repeat again the next night.

Then after 3 days of this, I get an email saying my ticket was closed due to failure to respond.

---

What's the average IQ of India again?

---

Pookers, that is a strawman. No one can accurately judge what an average IQ of a country is. I know many in the US who are downright dumb too. Let's not assuage ourselves with this fake metric.

---

You can judge average IQ on large groups of people, like the different groups in South Africa, who have clear lines.

infinity ag said:

---

deddog said:

---

infinity ag said:

---

I was reading Teamblind.com and saw this.

The poster is an H1B visa holder working for Amazon and he feels that the long term plan is to offshore all jobs to India and China and slowly make the H1B visa irrelevant (since no jobs will remain in the US anyway). US companies will hire people in their own countries. This will allow Trump to claim a win and assuage the MAGA crowd.

If this is true, the country's tech sector will suffer in the long run (while making high profits short term) as all the innovation will happen overseas.

My take on this is the H1B visa scheme is severely games by US corporations and Indian/Chinese body-shopping companies. They all make money and US citizens do not benefit. H1B was supposed to bring in "top talent", but in reality, it is a cheap labor program to lower salaries in the US. I don't trust Elon Musk to fix this. Will Trump? Not sure, he seems to be in Elon's pocket when it comes to the tech sector.

Read the thread, people talk about the shady things these companies do with faking resumes, experience etc.

https://www.teamblind.com/post/H1B-sunset-is-coming-soon-and-you-know-it-1SoVx3MR



Here is an example of how US Citizens (and US green card holders) are barred from jobs in the US - this one is in Dallas. "No GC & USC".

---

H1Bs are a dog whistle.

Why have H1Bs when you can offshore entire divisions. That's the real issue. Jobs going overseas.

How do you combat that?

Better schooling for one.
Incentives to not outsource.
Lower taxes
Less regulation
Ways to reduce the debilitating impact of high insurance costs

---

These are just tired old conservative talking points that have failed us that people regurgitate without applying any thought. Limbaugh said it (in 2010) so it must be right.

None of those will work in the short term. Those take 30 years to work out, as it has taken 30 years for corps to destroy American tech talent pool.
We will be all hollowed out by the time you wake up in 2055.

The only thing that will work is Trump wielding a big stick and telling the scummy CEOs to hiring in the US or face penalties. Nothing else will work. You are being naive if you think being nice and trusting corporations to do the right thing will work. Corporations by nature want everything for nothing. That is their job, can't blame them. It is the Govt's job to not allow that. Our Govt's have historically bent over to corporations.

I am all for MORE regulation. MORE taxes if you don't hire in the US. Sure, pay incentives to not outsource. Better schooling should happen regardless of this issue.

Only someone like Trump can fix this. I don't think anyone else can or will.

---

Yeah. This is a horrendous idea and not based in reality.

Punitive taxes don't encourage growth . You're going to tax multinational companies for having foreign employees? You want the government to decide which jobs a company needs to have on American soil?

You want American companies to compete with foreign companies while restricting their ability to import talent, and taxing them if they hire talent overseas? You sound more like Bernie

infinity ag said:

---

AJ02 said:

---

deddog said:

---

Pookers said:

---

H1B visas are trash and so are the paper Americans who support them.

---

H1Bs the way they are currently handled are trash.
But there needs to be a pathway for outstanding and exceptional talent to make it to the US.
Either you get them here, or they become competition.

Just in my immediate circle I know exceptionally bright talented H1s that were at the top of the class in their far more competitive schools in Asia, and now work for US startups or corporations.

You want those people here.

This is how it used to be before Y2K.
Any indian or chinese who came into the US before that was almost always exceptional. There was a high bar. Somewhere along the line, companies realized they could use it to suppress wages and opened the floodgates.
Which worked out well for me of course. But that's a different story

---

Agreed. I have two fantastic people on my team. Highly intelligent, hard workers. One from Venezuela, the other from Panama. I'd pick them any day over a lot of the American people I've worked with in the past.

---

I am sure you also bring in Mohammed and Xiaohua into your own home, 2 nice boys who are well behaved and work hard, and would pick them above your own kids Steve and Melissa.

---

You don't think there are talented engineers in India?
China? You need to get out more and work with folks far more talented than yourself.
It's a sobering experience.

Either you hire the best or you have them compete against you.
We need to allow H1s, though i'm fine by making it a lor more expensive for companies to do so.

You cannot stop companies from moving jobs overseas. A lot of times it makes business sense, and especially if you are competing in those markets.

deddog said:

---

infinity ag said:

---

AJ02 said:

---

deddog said:

---

Pookers said:

---

H1B visas are trash and so are the paper Americans who support them.

---

H1Bs the way they are currently handled are trash.
But there needs to be a pathway for outstanding and exceptional talent to make it to the US.
Either you get them here, or they become competition.

Just in my immediate circle I know exceptionally bright talented H1s that were at the top of the class in their far more competitive schools in Asia, and now work for US startups or corporations.

You want those people here.

This is how it used to be before Y2K.
Any indian or chinese who came into the US before that was almost always exceptional. There was a high bar. Somewhere along the line, companies realized they could use it to suppress wages and opened the floodgates.
Which worked out well for me of course. But that's a different story

---

Agreed. I have two fantastic people on my team. Highly intelligent, hard workers. One from Venezuela, the other from Panama. I'd pick them any day over a lot of the American people I've worked with in the past.

---

I am sure you also bring in Mohammed and Xiaohua into your own home, 2 nice boys who are well behaved and work hard, and would pick them above your own kids Steve and Melissa.

---

You don't think there are talented engineers in India?
China? You need to get out more and work with folks far more talented than yourself.
It's a sobering experience.

Either you hire the best or you have them compete against you.
We need to allow H1s, though i'm fine by making it a lor more expensive for companies to do so.

You cannot stop companies from moving jobs overseas. A lot of times it makes business sense, and especially if you are competing in those markets.

---

Open a history book please and see that this does not end well. The clown world economy is going to collapse at some point and then you will have people fighting for land.

Pookers said:

---

deddog said:

---

infinity ag said:

---

AJ02 said:

---

deddog said:

---

Pookers said:

---

H1B visas are trash and so are the paper Americans who support them.

---

H1Bs the way they are currently handled are trash.
But there needs to be a pathway for outstanding and exceptional talent to make it to the US.
Either you get them here, or they become competition.

Just in my immediate circle I know exceptionally bright talented H1s that were at the top of the class in their far more competitive schools in Asia, and now work for US startups or corporations.

You want those people here.

This is how it used to be before Y2K.
Any indian or chinese who came into the US before that was almost always exceptional. There was a high bar. Somewhere along the line, companies realized they could use it to suppress wages and opened the floodgates.
Which worked out well for me of course. But that's a different story

---

Agreed. I have two fantastic people on my team. Highly intelligent, hard workers. One from Venezuela, the other from Panama. I'd pick them any day over a lot of the American people I've worked with in the past.

---

I am sure you also bring in Mohammed and Xiaohua into your own home, 2 nice boys who are well behaved and work hard, and would pick them above your own kids Steve and Melissa.

---

You don't think there are talented engineers in India?
China? You need to get out more and work with folks far more talented than yourself.
It's a sobering experience.

Either you hire the best or you have them compete against you.
We need to allow H1s, though i'm fine by making it a lor more expensive for companies to do so.

You cannot stop companies from moving jobs overseas. A lot of times it makes business sense, and especially if you are competing in those markets.

---

Open a history book please and see that this does not end well. The clown world economy is going to collapse at some point and then you will have people fighting for land.

---

What specifically does not work well? Hiring the best possible talent?

deddog said:

---

Pookers said:

---

Open a history book please and see that this does not end well. The clown world economy is going to collapse at some point and then you will have people fighting for land.

---

What specifically does not work well? Hiring the best possible talent?

---

Mass "immigration" like we've been doing since 1965.

deddog said:

---

Pookers said:

---

deddog said:

---

infinity ag said:

---

AJ02 said:

---

deddog said:

---

Pookers said:

---

H1B visas are trash and so are the paper Americans who support them.

---

H1Bs the way they are currently handled are trash.
But there needs to be a pathway for outstanding and exceptional talent to make it to the US.
Either you get them here, or they become competition.

Just in my immediate circle I know exceptionally bright talented H1s that were at the top of the class in their far more competitive schools in Asia, and now work for US startups or corporations.

You want those people here.

This is how it used to be before Y2K.
Any indian or chinese who came into the US before that was almost always exceptional. There was a high bar. Somewhere along the line, companies realized they could use it to suppress wages and opened the floodgates.
Which worked out well for me of course. But that's a different story

---

Agreed. I have two fantastic people on my team. Highly intelligent, hard workers. One from Venezuela, the other from Panama. I'd pick them any day over a lot of the American people I've worked with in the past.

---

I am sure you also bring in Mohammed and Xiaohua into your own home, 2 nice boys who are well behaved and work hard, and would pick them above your own kids Steve and Melissa.

---

You don't think there are talented engineers in India?
China? You need to get out more and work with folks far more talented than yourself.
It's a sobering experience.

Either you hire the best or you have them compete against you.
We need to allow H1s, though i'm fine by making it a lor more expensive for companies to do so.

You cannot stop companies from moving jobs overseas. A lot of times it makes business sense, and especially if you are competing in those markets.

---

Open a history book please and see that this does not end well. The clown world economy is going to collapse at some point and then you will have people fighting for land.

---

What specifically does not work well? Hiring the best possible talent?

---

Destroying the middle class so executives can get bigger bonuses.

texagbeliever said:

---

deddog said:

---

Pookers said:

---

deddog said:

---

infinity ag said:

---

AJ02 said:

---

deddog said:

---

Pookers said:

---

H1B visas are trash and so are the paper Americans who support them.

---

H1Bs the way they are currently handled are trash.
But there needs to be a pathway for outstanding and exceptional talent to make it to the US.
Either you get them here, or they become competition.

Just in my immediate circle I know exceptionally bright talented H1s that were at the top of the class in their far more competitive schools in Asia, and now work for US startups or corporations.

You want those people here.

This is how it used to be before Y2K.
Any indian or chinese who came into the US before that was almost always exceptional. There was a high bar. Somewhere along the line, companies realized they could use it to suppress wages and opened the floodgates.
Which worked out well for me of course. But that's a different story

---

Agreed. I have two fantastic people on my team. Highly intelligent, hard workers. One from Venezuela, the other from Panama. I'd pick them any day over a lot of the American people I've worked with in the past.

---

I am sure you also bring in Mohammed and Xiaohua into your own home, 2 nice boys who are well behaved and work hard, and would pick them above your own kids Steve and Melissa.

---

You don't think there are talented engineers in India?
China? You need to get out more and work with folks far more talented than yourself.
It's a sobering experience.

Either you hire the best or you have them compete against you.
We need to allow H1s, though i'm fine by making it a lor more expensive for companies to do so.

You cannot stop companies from moving jobs overseas. A lot of times it makes business sense, and especially if you are competing in those markets.

---

Open a history book please and see that this does not end well. The clown world economy is going to collapse at some point and then you will have people fighting for land.

---

What specifically does not work well? Hiring the best possible talent?

---

Destroying the middle class so executives can get bigger bonuses.

---

Great.
So your solution is? We don't hire the talent, and instead compete against it?
That's a losers strategy. Its a quick path to economic ruin.

But at least you'll stick it to the executives and their bonuses.

Pookers said:

---

deddog said:

---

Pookers said:

---

Open a history book please and see that this does not end well. The clown world economy is going to collapse at some point and then you will have people fighting for land.

---

What specifically does not work well? Hiring the best possible talent?

---

Mass "immigration" like we've been doing since 1965.

---

Fair. i don't agree with it either, even though i have benefitted.

This discussions was about H1Bs specifically.
The current H1B system is being manipulated by companies. However, not allowing any H1s is a bad idea. Want to make it more expensive to hire H1s? Absolutely, go for it. If you're sponsoring H1s make sure they are truly worth it. But make no mistake, there are some exceedingly talented folks worldwide that you want in the US.

For smaller companies (I work for one) outsourcing is a very efficient way to grow. I can hire 10 engineers in India for the price of 1 really good one in the US. There is a much higher ROI with the 10 engineers, alows us to grow. We want to get to a point where we can hire a US only team - if we were forced to hire only in the US, we would pretty much have to shut shop.

Outsourcing also makes many US companies more competitive globally. We don't like to hear it, and rail on CEOs, but it still doesn't change the fact that it's true.

deddog said:

---

Pookers said:

---

deddog said:

---

Pookers said:

---

Open a history book please and see that this does not end well. The clown world economy is going to collapse at some point and then you will have people fighting for land.

---

What specifically does not work well? Hiring the best possible talent?

---

Mass "immigration" like we've been doing since 1965.

---

Fair. i don't agree with it either, even though i have benefitted.

This discussions was about H1Bs specifically.
The current H1B system is being manipulated by companies. However, not allowing any H1s is a bad idea. Want to make it more expensive to hire H1s? Absolutely, go for it. If you're sponsoring H1s make sure they are truly worth it. But make no mistake, there are some exceedingly talented folks worldwide that you want in the US.

For smaller companies (I work for one) outsourcing is a very efficient way to grow. I can hire 10 engineers in India for the price of 1 really good one in the US. There is a much higher ROI with the 10 engineers, alows us to grow. We want to get to a point where we can hire a US only team - if we were forced to hire only in the US, we would pretty much have to shut shop.

Outsourcing also makes many US companies more competitive globally. We don't like to hear it, and rail on CEOs, but it still doesn't change the fact that it's true.

---

Gutting career mobility in the name of short term increased profit margins will go well

texagbeliever said:

---

deddog said:

---

Pookers said:

---

deddog said:

---

infinity ag said:

---

AJ02 said:

---

deddog said:

---

Pookers said:

---

H1B visas are trash and so are the paper Americans who support them.

---

H1Bs the way they are currently handled are trash.
But there needs to be a pathway for outstanding and exceptional talent to make it to the US.
Either you get them here, or they become competition.

Just in my immediate circle I know exceptionally bright talented H1s that were at the top of the class in their far more competitive schools in Asia, and now work for US startups or corporations.

You want those people here.

This is how it used to be before Y2K.
Any indian or chinese who came into the US before that was almost always exceptional. There was a high bar. Somewhere along the line, companies realized they could use it to suppress wages and opened the floodgates.
Which worked out well for me of course. But that's a different story

---

Agreed. I have two fantastic people on my team. Highly intelligent, hard workers. One from Venezuela, the other from Panama. I'd pick them any day over a lot of the American people I've worked with in the past.

---

I am sure you also bring in Mohammed and Xiaohua into your own home, 2 nice boys who are well behaved and work hard, and would pick them above your own kids Steve and Melissa.

---

You don't think there are talented engineers in India?
China? You need to get out more and work with folks far more talented than yourself.
It's a sobering experience.

Either you hire the best or you have them compete against you.
We need to allow H1s, though i'm fine by making it a lor more expensive for companies to do so.

You cannot stop companies from moving jobs overseas. A lot of times it makes business sense, and especially if you are competing in those markets.

---

Open a history book please and see that this does not end well. The clown world economy is going to collapse at some point and then you will have people fighting for land.

---

What specifically does not work well? Hiring the best possible talent?

---

Destroying the middle class so executives can get bigger bonuses.

---

Boomers and selling off the next generation, what else is new

mickeyrig06sq3 said:

---

Out of touch executive leadership is so focused on short term fiscal reports and not the long-term ramifications of the offshoring staffing strategy within IT. They all believe that they can outsource your entry and mid-level positions but keep your expert tier stateside. Great strategy, except the very pool you're grabbing your experts from is shrinking because there's no entry pipeline anymore, so you have no choice to go to H1B.

---

Agree. We have to give our young highly educated graduates a foot in the door to grow. Otherwise offshore gets the experience and then we pull them over here at higher levels because "no one here has their expertise". Well, no one here has the expertise because you didn't hire anyone here to grow that expertise. We've already decimated our manufacturing industries and will decimate our service industries with this plus AI. US citizens need a starting point.

deddog said:

---

infinity ag said:

---

deddog said:

---

infinity ag said:

---

I was reading Teamblind.com and saw this.

The poster is an H1B visa holder working for Amazon and he feels that the long term plan is to offshore all jobs to India and China and slowly make the H1B visa irrelevant (since no jobs will remain in the US anyway). US companies will hire people in their own countries. This will allow Trump to claim a win and assuage the MAGA crowd.

If this is true, the country's tech sector will suffer in the long run (while making high profits short term) as all the innovation will happen overseas.

My take on this is the H1B visa scheme is severely games by US corporations and Indian/Chinese body-shopping companies. They all make money and US citizens do not benefit. H1B was supposed to bring in "top talent", but in reality, it is a cheap labor program to lower salaries in the US. I don't trust Elon Musk to fix this. Will Trump? Not sure, he seems to be in Elon's pocket when it comes to the tech sector.

Read the thread, people talk about the shady things these companies do with faking resumes, experience etc.

https://www.teamblind.com/post/H1B-sunset-is-coming-soon-and-you-know-it-1SoVx3MR



Here is an example of how US Citizens (and US green card holders) are barred from jobs in the US - this one is in Dallas. "No GC & USC".

---

H1Bs are a dog whistle.

Why have H1Bs when you can offshore entire divisions. That's the real issue. Jobs going overseas.

How do you combat that?

Better schooling for one.
Incentives to not outsource.
Lower taxes
Less regulation
Ways to reduce the debilitating impact of high insurance costs

---

These are just tired old conservative talking points that have failed us that people regurgitate without applying any thought. Limbaugh said it (in 2010) so it must be right.

None of those will work in the short term. Those take 30 years to work out, as it has taken 30 years for corps to destroy American tech talent pool.
We will be all hollowed out by the time you wake up in 2055.

The only thing that will work is Trump wielding a big stick and telling the scummy CEOs to hiring in the US or face penalties. Nothing else will work. You are being naive if you think being nice and trusting corporations to do the right thing will work. Corporations by nature want everything for nothing. That is their job, can't blame them. It is the Govt's job to not allow that. Our Govt's have historically bent over to corporations.

I am all for MORE regulation. MORE taxes if you don't hire in the US. Sure, pay incentives to not outsource. Better schooling should happen regardless of this issue.

Only someone like Trump can fix this. I don't think anyone else can or will.

---

Yeah. This is a horrendous idea and not based in reality.

Punitive taxes don't encourage growth . You're going to tax multinational companies for having foreign employees? You want the government to decide which jobs a company needs to have on American soil?

You want American companies to compete with foreign companies while restricting their ability to import talent, and taxing them if they hire talent overseas? You sound more like Bernie

---

Absolutely. Tariff the corporations. Make them pay 25% more for every foreigner they hire for a certain number of years until Americans find jobs again. Linkedin is littered with Americans not able to find jobs and these corps are lying to us that American managers "cannot find the skills we need".

Tax them.

deddog said:

---

infinity ag said:

---

AJ02 said:

---

deddog said:

---

Pookers said:

---

H1B visas are trash and so are the paper Americans who support them.

---

H1Bs the way they are currently handled are trash.
But there needs to be a pathway for outstanding and exceptional talent to make it to the US.
Either you get them here, or they become competition.

Just in my immediate circle I know exceptionally bright talented H1s that were at the top of the class in their far more competitive schools in Asia, and now work for US startups or corporations.

You want those people here.

This is how it used to be before Y2K.
Any indian or chinese who came into the US before that was almost always exceptional. There was a high bar. Somewhere along the line, companies realized they could use it to suppress wages and opened the floodgates.
Which worked out well for me of course. But that's a different story

---

Agreed. I have two fantastic people on my team. Highly intelligent, hard workers. One from Venezuela, the other from Panama. I'd pick them any day over a lot of the American people I've worked with in the past.

---

I am sure you also bring in Mohammed and Xiaohua into your own home, 2 nice boys who are well behaved and work hard, and would pick them above your own kids Steve and Melissa.

---

You don't think there are talented engineers in India?
China? You need to get out more and work with folks far more talented than yourself.
It's a sobering experience.

Either you hire the best or you have them compete against you.
We need to allow H1s, though i'm fine by making it a lor more expensive for companies to do so.

You cannot stop companies from moving jobs overseas. A lot of times it makes business sense, and especially if you are competing in those markets.

---

Of course there are. So? Is the responsibility of America to give jobs to "talented" engineers from India? While there are a good number of intelligent engineers, there are a very very large number who suck big time and still are employed by companies and sent to US clients. Absolute bag of rocks.

These so called talented Indian engineers are free to go back to India and compete against us. And while you are at it, tell me the last innovative thing that came out of those engineers. All they do is do something for cheap. Nothing innovative. All the good ones come to the US and do amazing things. So the secret sauce is America.

So I am all for putting barriers for the next few years until this logjam resolves itself. Then we let them in as we need. We have no responsibility to let 1 or 1000 in.

The Govt can stop companies. All they do is say move jobs overseas, but pay a tax if you are a US company. Now I would love to see Amazon and Microsoft move to Bangladesh. Not gonna happen.

deddog said:

---

Pookers said:

---

deddog said:

---

infinity ag said:

---

AJ02 said:

---

deddog said:

---

Pookers said:

---

H1B visas are trash and so are the paper Americans who support them.

---

H1Bs the way they are currently handled are trash.
But there needs to be a pathway for outstanding and exceptional talent to make it to the US.
Either you get them here, or they become competition.

Just in my immediate circle I know exceptionally bright talented H1s that were at the top of the class in their far more competitive schools in Asia, and now work for US startups or corporations.

You want those people here.

This is how it used to be before Y2K.
Any indian or chinese who came into the US before that was almost always exceptional. There was a high bar. Somewhere along the line, companies realized they could use it to suppress wages and opened the floodgates.
Which worked out well for me of course. But that's a different story

---

Agreed. I have two fantastic people on my team. Highly intelligent, hard workers. One from Venezuela, the other from Panama. I'd pick them any day over a lot of the American people I've worked with in the past.

---

I am sure you also bring in Mohammed and Xiaohua into your own home, 2 nice boys who are well behaved and work hard, and would pick them above your own kids Steve and Melissa.

---

You don't think there are talented engineers in India?
China? You need to get out more and work with folks far more talented than yourself.
It's a sobering experience.

Either you hire the best or you have them compete against you.
We need to allow H1s, though i'm fine by making it a lor more expensive for companies to do so.

You cannot stop companies from moving jobs overseas. A lot of times it makes business sense, and especially if you are competing in those markets.

---

Open a history book please and see that this does not end well. The clown world economy is going to collapse at some point and then you will have people fighting for land.

---

What specifically does not work well? Hiring the best possible talent?

---

It is the "cheapest possible talent" (company be damned) by the execs. They make their cash and scoot and the company crashes.

This is not a "best possible talent" play. You have been misled.

deddog said:

---

texagbeliever said:

---

deddog said:

---

Pookers said:

---

deddog said:

---

infinity ag said:

---

AJ02 said:

---

deddog said:

---

Pookers said:

---

H1B visas are trash and so are the paper Americans who support them.

---

H1Bs the way they are currently handled are trash.
But there needs to be a pathway for outstanding and exceptional talent to make it to the US.
Either you get them here, or they become competition.

Just in my immediate circle I know exceptionally bright talented H1s that were at the top of the class in their far more competitive schools in Asia, and now work for US startups or corporations.

You want those people here.

This is how it used to be before Y2K.
Any indian or chinese who came into the US before that was almost always exceptional. There was a high bar. Somewhere along the line, companies realized they could use it to suppress wages and opened the floodgates.
Which worked out well for me of course. But that's a different story

---

Agreed. I have two fantastic people on my team. Highly intelligent, hard workers. One from Venezuela, the other from Panama. I'd pick them any day over a lot of the American people I've worked with in the past.

---

I am sure you also bring in Mohammed and Xiaohua into your own home, 2 nice boys who are well behaved and work hard, and would pick them above your own kids Steve and Melissa.

---

You don't think there are talented engineers in India?
China? You need to get out more and work with folks far more talented than yourself.
It's a sobering experience.

Either you hire the best or you have them compete against you.
We need to allow H1s, though i'm fine by making it a lor more expensive for companies to do so.

You cannot stop companies from moving jobs overseas. A lot of times it makes business sense, and especially if you are competing in those markets.

---

Open a history book please and see that this does not end well. The clown world economy is going to collapse at some point and then you will have people fighting for land.

---

What specifically does not work well? Hiring the best possible talent?

---

Destroying the middle class so executives can get bigger bonuses.

---

Great.
So your solution is? We don't hire the talent, and instead compete against it?
That's a losers strategy. Its a quick path to economic ruin.

But at least you'll stick it to the executives and their bonuses.

---

hahahhaha
We are not competing against them. Don't try that trick. I have worked with many of them (mainly from India - Infosys, TCS, Wipro types) and they are all bargain basement "coders". I once had to deploy my code at 2am and the loser at the other end claimed to be an admin and was asking me "please tell me what to click".

So don't tell me about "competing" with these losers.

deddog said:

---

texagbeliever said:

---

deddog said:

---

Pookers said:

---

deddog said:

---

infinity ag said:

---

AJ02 said:

---

deddog said:

---

Pookers said:

---

H1B visas are trash and so are the paper Americans who support them.

---

H1Bs the way they are currently handled are trash.
But there needs to be a pathway for outstanding and exceptional talent to make it to the US.
Either you get them here, or they become competition.

Just in my immediate circle I know exceptionally bright talented H1s that were at the top of the class in their far more competitive schools in Asia, and now work for US startups or corporations.

You want those people here.

This is how it used to be before Y2K.
Any indian or chinese who came into the US before that was almost always exceptional. There was a high bar. Somewhere along the line, companies realized they could use it to suppress wages and opened the floodgates.
Which worked out well for me of course. But that's a different story

---

Agreed. I have two fantastic people on my team. Highly intelligent, hard workers. One from Venezuela, the other from Panama. I'd pick them any day over a lot of the American people I've worked with in the past.

---

I am sure you also bring in Mohammed and Xiaohua into your own home, 2 nice boys who are well behaved and work hard, and would pick them above your own kids Steve and Melissa.

---

You don't think there are talented engineers in India?
China? You need to get out more and work with folks far more talented than yourself.
It's a sobering experience.

Either you hire the best or you have them compete against you.
We need to allow H1s, though i'm fine by making it a lor more expensive for companies to do so.

You cannot stop companies from moving jobs overseas. A lot of times it makes business sense, and especially if you are competing in those markets.

---

Open a history book please and see that this does not end well. The clown world economy is going to collapse at some point and then you will have people fighting for land.

---

What specifically does not work well? Hiring the best possible talent?

---

Destroying the middle class so executives can get bigger bonuses.

---

Great.
So your solution is? We don't hire the talent, and instead compete against it?
That's a losers strategy. Its a quick path to economic ruin.

But at least you'll stick it to the executives and their bonuses.

---

If your company can't be successful without slave like labor, then maybe your company doesn't have a competitive advantage and shouldn't be successful.

Now if your company is not able to be successful because other companies are using the same quasi slave labor then the problem goes away when you fix that loophole.

Your argument would be the same way a textile mill that used child labor would say. If we don't do it, we will be out of business. Okay then let's level that playing field because that is not acceptable for a healthy society.

hangman said:

---

mickeyrig06sq3 said:

---

Out of touch executive leadership is so focused on short term fiscal reports and not the long-term ramifications of the offshoring staffing strategy within IT. They all believe that they can outsource your entry and mid-level positions but keep your expert tier stateside. Great strategy, except the very pool you're grabbing your experts from is shrinking because there's no entry pipeline anymore, so you have no choice to go to H1B.

---

Agree. We have to give our young highly educated graduates a foot in the door to grow. Otherwise offshore gets the experience and then we pull them over here at higher levels because "no one here has their expertise". Well, no one here has the expertise because you didn't hire anyone here to grow that expertise. We've already decimated our manufacturing industries and will decimate our service industries with this plus AI. US citizens need a starting point.

---

You got it right.
Exactly hit the point.

deddog said:

---

Pookers said:

---

deddog said:

---

Pookers said:

---

Open a history book please and see that this does not end well. The clown world economy is going to collapse at some point and then you will have people fighting for land.

---

What specifically does not work well? Hiring the best possible talent?

---

Mass "immigration" like we've been doing since 1965.

---

Fair. i don't agree with it either, even though i have benefitted.

This discussions was about H1Bs specifically.
The current H1B system is being manipulated by companies. However, not allowing any H1s is a bad idea. Want to make it more expensive to hire H1s? Absolutely, go for it. If you're sponsoring H1s make sure they are truly worth it. But make no mistake, there are some exceedingly talented folks worldwide that you want in the US.

For smaller companies (I work for one) outsourcing is a very efficient way to grow. I can hire 10 engineers in India for the price of 1 really good one in the US. There is a much higher ROI with the 10 engineers, alows us to grow. We want to get to a point where we can hire a US only team - if we were forced to hire only in the US, we would pretty much have to shut shop.

Outsourcing also makes many US companies more competitive globally. We don't like to hear it, and rail on CEOs, but it still doesn't change the fact that it's true.

---

All I hear from you is taking taking and more taking from the US and tax payers. No giving back.
As another poster said, you are justifying slave labor at obs
Maybe it is better for your company to shut shop.


(I say it figuratively of course, I don't want you to lose your job)

mickeyrig06sq3 said:

---

Out of touch executive leadership is so focused on short term fiscal reports and not the long-term ramifications of the offshoring staffing strategy within IT. They all believe that they can outsource your entry and mid-level positions but keep your expert tier stateside. Great strategy, except the very pool you're grabbing your experts from is shrinking because there's no entry pipeline anymore, so you have no choice to go to H1B.

---

Not to mention, Indians/Filipinos/etc SUCK at IT kinds of stuff. I mean, porno levels of sucking.

Trends I am seeing in Software Engineering:

1. Remote work tools Google suite, slack etc. are massively updated and remote work is easy. Hence fiduciary duty for companies aligns with figuring out where they can build teams of sufficient quality at low costs. This is leading to "look in low cost of living areas first attitude". For last couple of years, policy in my company has been new headcount in India/Eastern Europe, Latin America. US is backfill only. It costs 3x to hire a person in US with same skills. This is a bad trend as new engineers are being trained largely in low costs of living. Once you have a presence and good leadership in a country, you start sending more roles to the country. Want a TPM look in India first, want to setup a sub-team in hardware look in LCOL first.

2. AI for Coding and related areas is completely changing the industry. This could go in multiple directions but more software will be needed. Where will centers of excellence emerge which have right skill sets (high proficiency with AI tools) and mix of junior and senior talent is up for grabs. This could put massive downward pressure on salaries.


H1B visas just open up more people (70K/year? ) into the talent pool but they are still high cost especially at places like Apple, Meta, Amazon where the non-shady-Indian-firm folks go. But really the gravitational pull is on cost management, AI and where can solid teams be built. More and more you can just build teams in foreign countries.

Minus developing components of AI stack itself, everything else in software is moving to LCOL. Hiring new grads in US is becoming unthinkable due to costs and downstream affects of that will be bad for the US.