Silent For Too Long said:

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Infection_Ag11 said:

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It's pretty well established that elite chess players just have a specific kind/combination of intelligence factors, and are not MORE intelligent overall just because they are elite chess players. Many chess grandmasters have documented IQs within a single standard deviation of average, which for reference is roughly where the average law and med school grad in the US falls (around 115-120).

What makes elite chess players more than any other single factor is excellent working memory derived from an enormous volume of play. Above a certain threshold of number of matches played (I can't remember the number) they will beat 99.99…% of humans at chess purely due to pattern recognition and memorization.

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You are way over simplifying the data here. Grandmasters quite frequently are in the 135+ range.

Magnus Carlsen is the best player in the world and is also a bonafide genius.

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I never said there aren't genius chess players, because of course there are. And in fact you are exponentially more likely to be a genius if you are an elite chess player than the general population. All I said was the common belief that you have to be a genius to be an elite chess player is not accurate. And moreover, even genius chess players tends to fall heavily into a very niche subset of intelligence that isn't particularly transferable to other pursuits.

one safe place said:

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Certain nationalities or races or ethnic groups tend to excel at certain things, often head and shoulders above others.

If your life is on the line and you had to choose from a group of people to be the best at something, your life will mostly likely be spared if:

Choosing the winner of a spelling be: Indian (dot not feather)
Best at violin: Asian
Swimming: white person
Best at playing basketball: black dude
Father most likely in the home: white dude

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You're wrong on the last part by a decent margin:

https://datacenter.aecf.org/data/tables/107-children-in-single-parent-families-by-race-and-ethnicity#detailed/1/any/false/2545,1095,2048,1729,37,871,870,573,869,36/8223,4040,4039,2638,2597,4758,1353/432,431

Asian/Pacific Islander children have the highest likelihood of having 2 parent homes.

Infection_Ag11 said:

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texagbeliever said:

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Infection_Ag11 said:

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It's pretty well established that elite chess players just have a specific kind/combination of intelligence factors, and are not MORE intelligent overall just because they are elite chess players. Many chess grandmasters have documented IQs within a single standard deviation of average, which for reference is roughly where the average law and med school grad in the US falls (around 115-120).

What makes elite chess players more than any other single factor is excellent working memory derived from an enormous volume of play. Above a certain threshold of number of matches played (I can't remember the number) they will beat 99.99…% of humans at chess purely due to pattern recognition and memorization.

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Wait you think the players are just playing out patterns? Lol. I'm guessing your elo has never been above 1200.

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Pattern recognition is, by far, the most important skill in chess. There are many other factors involved and those factors are what separate great players from one another, but it's demonstrable that people above a relatively modest intelligence threshold can get good enough at chess to beat most people at it just by playing enough.

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So if you practice something you will be able to beat most people who don't practice that thing. Where can I subscribe for more great takes!

Again you are quite ignorant on what it takes to get to 1600+ on elo. And 1600 isn't that special.

Chess is comprised of 4 things:
1. Putting opponent in checkmate
2. Not getting put in checkmate
3. Taking pieces in favorable trades
4. Dominating position

The importance and relationship of each of those to the other requires strategy. In a true chess game with no mistakes, it should end in a tie. Thus chess is about forcing opponents to make a mistake and capitalize while not making any mistakes of your own.

Intelligent people may be better at chess, but mastering chess does not make you more intelligent.

Why not?
Improving strategy, anticipation and spatial awareness all increase intelligence. At the very least the use of one's intelligence. Again assuming you are playing above a beginner level.

Aggie_95 said:

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There is a reason that Asians are not counted as "minorities" by most universities anymore. They are the "ideal" race academically. All of the echo chamber socioeconomic BS is skewed by the Asian (including Indian subcontinent) focus on education and family, hence, they want to exclude these populations. IE: these populations tend to excel academically in the west regardless of their current socioeconomic situation.

I say this as a father (white) to half-Asian children. Unfortunately (or fortunately) for them, they don't have the typical Tiger parent situation, although we stress education first. They are "well rounded" kids that make pretty good grades but are also very social.

One of my kids is going to Cal-Berkley as a D1 athlete. Cal appears to be 60%-65% Asian. I have been very clear that they will need to focus closely on academics to even compete there. With a four hour training commitment per day and their desired social situation, they are going to have to focus on academics to compete.

No doubt that "culture" matters. The "cultures" that struggle in western society tend to focus on things other than education and family continuity. Most of us EuroAmericans (white) fall in the middle of this spectrum, or there are so many of us we trend toward the mean.

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Cal Berkeley, well done Sir!!!

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So if you practice something you will be able to beat most people who don't practice that thing. Where can I subscribe for more great takes!

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How long would you need to practice basketball, football, soccer or the 400 meter dash to even be competitive against an average division 1 athlete?

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The importance and relationship of each of those to the other requires strategy.

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Which is largely the product of seeing as many moves in as many scenarios as possible over and over and over again.

akm91 said:

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Lol, we shared pretty much the exact sentiments.

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My parents still live in Fremont, CA, and I go back there 2 or 3 times per year. Which part of the Bay Area did you live in?

Infection_Ag11 said:

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So if you practice something you will be able to beat most people who don't practice that thing. Where can I subscribe for more great takes!

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How long would you need to practice basketball, football, soccer or the 400 meter dash to even be competitive against an average division 1 athlete?

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The importance and relationship of each of those to the other requires strategy.

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Which is largely the product of seeing as many moves in as many scenarios as possible over and over and over again.

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You do realize that a division 1 athlete is likely the equivalent of a grandmaster. They are the top 0.01% of athletes.

Also I would bet many people could not get above a 1800 rating just by playing a bunch of games. You really have no idea how complex chess is.

Iraq2xVeteran said:

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akm91 said:

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Lol, we shared pretty much the exact sentiments.

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My parents still live in Fremont, CA, and I go back there 2 or 3 times per year. Which part of the Bay Area did you live in?

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My aunt and uncle still live in Fremont. My kids were born in Fremont but we lived behind Cisco HQ, 237 and I880 back in the days. I'm now in Dallas and my kids are at A&M and at ND.

Sports are great but they have a shelf life. Enjoyed playing softball until I got thrown out at 1st on a liner to RF when I was 55. Retired that night. Music lasts forever and that is much more fun. Still playing in a band and having a blast doing it. Takes some of everything to be successful in life.

akm91 said:

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Iraq2xVeteran said:

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akm91 said:

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Lol, we shared pretty much the exact sentiments.

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My parents still live in Fremont, CA, and I go back there 2 or 3 times per year. Which part of the Bay Area did you live in?

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My aunt and uncle still live in Fremont. My kids were born in Fremont but we lived behind Cisco HQ, 237 and I880 back in the days. I'm now in Dallas and my kids are at A&M and at ND.

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Fremont - a.k.a FOB-mont.

FOB = Fresh Off the Boat

You mean Fresh Off the Boat

texagbeliever said:

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Infection_Ag11 said:

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It's pretty well established that elite chess players just have a specific kind/combination of intelligence factors, and are not MORE intelligent overall just because they are elite chess players. Many chess grandmasters have documented IQs within a single standard deviation of average, which for reference is roughly where the average law and med school grad in the US falls (around 115-120).

What makes elite chess players more than any other single factor is excellent working memory derived from an enormous volume of play. Above a certain threshold of number of matches played (I can't remember the number) they will beat 99.99…% of humans at chess purely due to pattern recognition and memorization.

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Wait you think the players are just playing out patterns? Lol. I'm guessing your elo has never been above 1200.

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Yes, chess is a solved game. The players now just memorize everything with the help of bots. The old era of grandmasters outsmarting each other is dead. It's become nothing but rote memorization nowadays, which is why you are seeing more Asians.

There is a reason why games like Go are becoming more popular among the top level. Bobby Fisher was right years ago about chess, its rules need to be changed to fix it from becoming nothing but a series of pre-establishment moves. Randomization of the pieces each match would do it.

akm91 said:

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You mean Fresh Off the Boat

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Ugh you are right... thanks for pointing it out.... change made!

Not sure what Fremont is like now but in the early 2000's it became increasingly more Indian/Pakistani than Asians. Not sure if FOB applies anymore

Asians will push their children into a mental hospital over playing musical instruments, and then push further when the child thinks he or she might want to earn a living from it.

AColunga07 said:

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No, but all of us (Colungas) come from Monterrey (North Mexico, originally from Spain/Portugal). I am sure he is a distant relative.

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Found him online. Unfortunately he passed away in 2022.
Although Dr Colunga was never my teacher, it saddens me to hear about Professors whose classes I actually took are passing away.

Dr. Daniel "Dan" Colunga
https://www.dignitymemorial.com/obituaries/college-station-tx/dr-daniel-dan-colunga-10912941
November 11, 1937 September 1, 2022

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After his time at NASAin an ironic twist of fate that his family always teased him abouthe found himself changing career paths and teaching computer science as an Associate Professor at his "rival" school: Texas A&M University. During this period, he worked as an advisor for both undergraduate and graduate students and served as a chairman for the National Research Council's Graduate Minority Scholarships in Engineering. He also lectured internationally and was a member of several engineering and academic honors organizations, such as Upsilon Pi Epsilon, the American Institute of Industrial Engineers, and Tau Beta Phi. He retired from teaching in 2000 with letters of thanks from students all over the world.

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From the article: Dan was born and raised in Brownsville, Texas and loved telling his grandchildren stories of his childhood "down in the Valley."

I can almost assure you his parents or grand parents were from Monterrey. I have found a few other Colungas in the Houston area and it's always the case.

I read the article, it seems we have a very similar story except I am from McAllen and went to A&M, not UT. Funny that we both ended up as engineers at NASA but have a passion for teaching/guiding/mentoring children/young adults. I would liked to have met him.

I went to my kids talent show at their elementary school this morning and wow...

The best (and only) violinist? Asian.
The best (and only) instrument foreign to me (like a more complicated flute)? Asian.
The best guitarist? Asian.
The best pianist? Asian.
The best (according to me) dance? Asian.
The best (according to my wife) dance? Asian.

Asians are still a minority at this school yet overall they were heavily over represented in this year's talent show and had the best performances.

Anecdotal, but the kids in my chess club were over represented as well.

Culture matters.

aTmAg said:

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Jeeper79 said:

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aTmAg said:

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Asians simply stress intellectual achievement more than everybody else. If it became mainstream understanding that wearing a beanie on your head made you smart, then you could be damn sure that every Asian kid would be walking around with a beanie on their head. No matter how ridiculous everybody else thinks it looks. They don't give a crap about soccer, football, baseball, etc. because there is almost zero chance that will result in prosperity. If an Asian brings home a B, you can be almost certain, that that kid will get a stern talking to rather than a "well at least you are well rounded." It's biggest reason why they, along with Jewish people, outperform and out earn almost everybody else.

Everybody could learn from their example rather than cope with "at least my kid is more social."

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If I had to choose between "prosperity" and happiness for my kids, I'd choose happiness every time. There are a million ways to make a living in this world, and very few of them are boosted by your skill at chess, piano, or spelling bee prowess.

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Keep telling yourself that.

It's not the chess, piano, or spelling bees themselves... it's the fact that their kids are driven to be the best in chess, piano, and spelling bees that makes them achieve more in other aspects of life.

And nobody is happy when they are failures.

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My wife runs a private writing business for kids grades 5-12 - creative writing, essay writing, college apps and prep, she used to do SAT prep for writing but they dropped that. She has over 100 students.

Anyway 95% of her clients are Asian/Indian and these are not remedial type classes but for those that want to get ahead. She has literally had kids accepted into many Ivy League schools, Rice, Vandy, Duke, Stanford, etc. 100% are college bound.

These kids do not spend their after school time in leisure pursuits. They are after whatever gets them ahead academically. Most do also do some sort of more cerebral pursuit - piano, cello, violin, chess - those are to round out their resume. And part of the high expectations their families have.

It's what they are pushed to do and it is cultural.

My son watches a Korean reality game show on Netflix called The Devils Plan. Basically all contestants are thrown into living space and they are given problems/puzzles to work on together/separately whatever they think is best. I was watching it with him and was blown away by the contestants. Most (say 90%) go to great Universities in either South Korea or US and are fairly attractive (no plastic surgery Ala Kardashians). There is one American contestant (Cornell Grad) of Korean descent, but the rest are all Korean.

One contestant showed up and all of the contestants were blown away by his arrival. His name is Lee Sedol and he was the last person to beat AI in the game of Go. The American contestant was like who is this guy, all the other contestants were in aww. I had to look him up as well. I had no idea who Lee Sodol was.

I thought it really shows the difference between their culture and ours as they were blown away by a super smart guy and Americans are enthralled by either idiots posting on tick-tock/instagram/whatever latest social media star is out there and the likes of the Real Housewives of Whatever. If you want to know why Asian are kicking our ass it's because they focus on the things that really matter vs American kids who strive to be famous.

Though I could be wrong.

TyHolden said:

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a ucla running back from texas once tweeted this when he got on campus....ucla is like 35% asian.

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There are two major schools in LA, USC and UCLA. Both have well known slang terms for their schools. University of Spoiled Children for USC and University of Caucasians Lost among Asians for UCLA. Don't shoot the messenger.

94chem said:

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Asians will push their children into a mental hospital over playing musical instruments, and then push further when the child thinks he or she might want to earn a living from it.

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Well, everything is planned in order to get into Harvard or Stanford,

Blame these schools for this.

But competing in sports, especially at a high level, provides life lessons and a foundation for future success.

Mental & physical discipline
Mental & physical toughness
Overcoming adversity
Team work
Building trust & relationships with people of different backgrounds and people whom you might not like that much in other settings but have to work together to achieve goals
Confidence
Creativity
Patience to understand that hard work doesn't necessarily result in immediate success so you learn persistence

And perhaps the most important thing is how to deal with failure.

The last is something that I've seen sorely lacking in a large number of Asian & Indian-Asian folks I've crossed worked with and had work for me in the corporate world. They've never experienced failure so they have zero clue how to deal with it. And the stereotype of lacking creativity or risk-aversion exists for a reason. Not to mention the stereotypes of lacking interpersonal skills and the EQ necessary to succeed in business.

Unsurprisingly it's pretty easy to pick out the engineers in this thread vs. the business/finance types.

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The last is something that I've seen sorely lacking in a large number of Asian & Indian-Asian folks I've crossed worked with and had work for me in the corporate world. They've never experienced failure so they have zero clue how to deal with it. And the stereotype of lacking creativity or risk-aversion exists for a reason. Not to mention the stereotypes of lacking interpersonal skills and the EQ necessary to succeed in business.

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That's not really true for those born in the US to Asian parents. Most of the asians that get into the Ivy's, Stanford, Duke and etc. are us born kids. They all play sports (mostly individual sports) as well as excel academically in addition to pursing some type of performance art.

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Unsurprisingly it's pretty easy to pick out the engineers in this thread vs. the business/finance types.

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I'd probably say a good portion of engineers in this thread have MBA's.

This is a great discussion and why i like to read this board. and as far as i can tell only one accusation of racism has been thrown out, so pat on the back to everyone…. except that one guy.

I look at it by separating each category to their extremes. one side is the hyper intelligent academic with almost no social skills, almost akin to someone with Asperger's.

On the other hand, are the mega athletes and brainless jocks. who can smash things but couldn't think their way out of a paper bag.

I'm teaching my kids to be well rounded and do their best to excel at both. My boys are 13 and 10 and are A students, have good social skills and are athletes in football and baseball respectively. We emphasize that in school in sports you give it your best and if failure happens here or there, we learn from it and use it to make us better.

For those of you saying team sports don't matter, i can tell you that i've learned as much by losing a championship game as i did in any textbook. And both are equally valuable. you need both to be well rounded as a human being. and team sports are all the better because you learn to work and communicate with others to achieve a common goal.

in the end, all that matters to me is

1. my children are disciples of Christ. This takes priority over all. You do this, and the rest comes together

2. My children are truly happy. Not rich, not hyper successful, but happy.

3. if they find financial success in business or anything else then all the better but this isn't super important to me. Some of the most miserable and dysfunctional people i've ever met are high up in business and uber wealthy, highly educated, and completely lost

aTmAg said:

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Asians simply stress intellectual achievement more than everybody else. If it became mainstream understanding that wearing a beanie on your head made you smart, then you could be damn sure that every Asian kid would be walking around with a beanie on their head. No matter how ridiculous everybody else thinks it looks. They don't give a crap about soccer, football, baseball, etc. because there is almost zero chance that will result in prosperity. If an Asian brings home a B, you can be almost certain, that that kid will get a stern talking to rather than a "well at least you are well rounded." It's biggest reason why they, along with Jewish people, outperform and out earn almost everybody else.

Everybody could learn from their example rather than cope with "at least my kid is more social."

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Don't knock football. It taught me to keep going when I'm dog tired, get up when knocked down and playing thru aches and pains. It taught me life and how to be an unselfish teammate. It taught me how to be a man.

I pushed chess with my kids really hard because it was enjoyable watching them thrive in it. Two of them were ranked nationally for their ages when they were young. I still run the entry & pairing for four tournaments a year that get 300 kids each.

My son, who was one of those ranked back when he was 7/8, is also starting for a 5A team that is still playing.

Read this whole thread, and this is the best perspective with a caveat....

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Chess is an amazing game of strategy that can be extremely beneficial to learn. That said, if I had to choose someone to run my company, I'm picking the baseball player who knows how to play chess over a chess player who knows how to play baseball.

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But if I were choosing the guys to do the complicated work under him, I'd go with the chess kids.

I'm purposely not pushing my 2nd grader at his early period of her life. School time is in school and not at home or weekends...etc. I don't think there's much to gain at an early age.

We'll be a little more encouraging at school when she hits Jr high and more again in HS. But for now, just be a kid

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I'm purposely not pushing my 2nd grader at his early period of her life. School time is in school and not at home or weekends...etc. I don't think there's much to gain at an early age.

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Just want to make sure she's challenged in school else you'll need to supplement after school.

akm91 said:

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I'm purposely not pushing my 2nd grader at his early period of her life. School time is in school and not at home or weekends...etc. I don't think there's much to gain at an early age.

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Just want to make sure she's challenged in school else you'll need to supplement after school.

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She's 92 percentile in reading and 73 percentile for math so we do buy her books that are a little above her grade level. But even that, we only encourage reading in the summer time and thats largely to get her off the tablet.


We live in Coppell and many parents here push their kids early with extra school work after school or weekends. Her best friend learns Chinese on the weekends for example. I wonder if those kids get burned out and what they miss out on, like going outside and eating some dirt