Make it illegal for employers to do payroll deductions? Hard pass, we don't need more laws.

cslifer said:

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Make it illegal for employers to do payroll deductions? Hard pass, we don't need more laws.

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Yes, and the fact people would not set aside the money to pay later, and end up in hot water with the IRS. What a mess

Mitt Romney already called this 12 years ago.

TheWoodlandsTxAg said:

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47% of Americans pay zero federal income tax, and some get EITC, refundable child tax credits, and money after paying 0 federal taxes. How is it fair for someone to get a EITC, refundable child tax credits, and other credits if they have never contributed a single cent in federal income taxes ever?

This is on top of the already extremely generous Medicaid, SNAP/food stamps, TANF, WIC, public education (the US spends more per pupil that any other country), government funded community hospitals/hospital districts, and countless other government funded welfare programs that people who have never contributed one cent in federal income taxes qualify for.

During budget reconciliation, Republicans should end all payroll deductions by employers including deductions for federal income tax, SS, and Medicare. Make it illegal for employers to make payroll deductions. Make the middle class voter write the check for $40K-90K out of their account every year, and then see if they will take this issue seriously.

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I wonder what the percentage is of people that "pay" federal income tax, but receive back more than they paid in.

Because those should be included in the "did not pay" category.

Great idea that will result in the republicans losing every election forever. My company handles all things financial for a lot of small owners and I've learned two things. Entrepreneurs want to keep their money as long as possible and their employees want the largest refund they can get by paying in as much as possible throughout the year. The vast majority of Americans aren't capable of saving for their tax bill. As much as I love the idea because I'm the entrepreneur in the above it would be catastrophic for a huge portion of the country.

LOYAL AG said:

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Great idea that will result in the republicans losing every election forever. My company handles all things financial for a lot of small owners and I've learned two things. Entrepreneurs want to keep their money as long as possible and their employees want the largest refund they can get by paying in as much as possible throughout the year. The vast majority of Americans aren't capable of saving for their tax bill. As much as I love the idea because I'm the entrepreneur in the above it would be catastrophic for a huge portion of the country.

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F that huge portion of the country then.

Part of being an adult is doing things you don't like and understanding that you don't live in a world where instant gratification is the rule.

I also think you are completely wrong on this with r's losing every election forever. If people really knew how much taxes they pay, they would be beyond pissed off. But they don't because those taxes are paid before they ever see them. Out of sight, out of mind. In most people's mind they simply don't exist because of how the system operates (by design).

Even with all these taxes we have a deficit of $36T. That is the greatest danger facing our republic. I hate paying taxes too. But even if we cut spending this millstone is still tied to our necks.

Realistically how do we solve this problem ? And no tariffs wont remotely do the job.

It's the price we pay to keep the lower classes from rising up and starting popular revolutions and coups. Do you like your relatively stable and comfortable life filled with luxury goods? We pay taxes to keep the poor's bellies full and their minds off unrest.

As history has shown, once the subsidized grain goes away, so does the tranquility.

I am perfectly fine with poor Americans making say, less than 20k - 30k to pay zero tax.They face the choice of food or kids school or rent. Why add tax to this burden? I am all for taxing the richer proportionally more. Why? Because the extra they pay makes no difference to them.

Example: Does Musk miss 2 billion dollars from his net worth? No, he doesn't even care or notice. But Steve the homeless guy will notice $20 that goes missing.

I personally am at a point in life where my net worth increases in bounds every month and year. I can quit employment and have 0 earned income. I would just pay for interest and dividends. Is it fair? Doesn't seem like it. But the system is there, I follow the rules, and I keep what I make.

rocky the dog said:

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That percentage is too low.

No one should be paying federal income taxes.

In other words, 100% of Americans should not be paying federal income taxes.

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I agree, but until we reach that utopia, don't you think that everyone should have some skin in the game?

schmellba99 said:

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LOYAL AG said:

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Great idea that will result in the republicans losing every election forever. My company handles all things financial for a lot of small owners and I've learned two things. Entrepreneurs want to keep their money as long as possible and their employees want the largest refund they can get by paying in as much as possible throughout the year. The vast majority of Americans aren't capable of saving for their tax bill. As much as I love the idea because I'm the entrepreneur in the above it would be catastrophic for a huge portion of the country.

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F that huge portion of the country then.

Part of being an adult is doing things you don't like and understanding that you don't live in a world where instant gratification is the rule.

I also think you are completely wrong on this with r's losing every election forever. If people really knew how much taxes they pay, they would be beyond pissed off. But they don't because those taxes are paid before they ever see them. Out of sight, out of mind. In most people's mind they simply don't exist because of how the system operates (by design).

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Most people don't care about politics except in the run up to Election Day. What they do care about is their daily lives and having more money on payday will be great until they have to write a check next April with money they don't have. That will be blamed on Republicans. Trust me, it won't go well. I have A LOT of conversations about withholding and the overwhelming majority end with the employee wanting to make sure they don't owe anything next April. Nearly all of them.

ttu_85 said:

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Even with all these taxes we have a deficit of $36T. That is the greatest danger facing our republic. I hate paying taxes too. But even if we cut spending this millstone is still tied to our necks.

Realistically how do we solve this problem ? And no tariffs wont remotely do the job.

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Cut spending down to only constitutionally allowed federal needs
Draft and ratify an amendment to the Constitution that requires a balanced* budget
Criminally penalize Congress when they fail to pass a balanced* budget


*Balanced Budget means a budget that has zero reliance on borrowing money and is a function strictly of actual tax revenue. Budget should be an average of the last 5 years of tax receipts x .85.

This thread is bizarre to me. Focus should be on getting the 53% that don't pay income tax to start having some skin in the game. Otherwise, they will continue to just vote to take their neighbors' property.

However, this thread seems to be more focused on the 47% that already have skin in the game.

schmellba99 said:

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cslifer said:

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Make it illegal for employers to do payroll deductions? Hard pass, we don't need more laws.

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Screw that.

Make people write the check weekly to the feds for their taxes. It would force them to realize how much of their income is forcibly stolen through the tax system and would absolutely change the mentality of a whole lot of people with regard to government and exactly what it does. That includes FICA, SS, Payroll, etc. All of it.

Nothing scares the government more than the citizens having knowledge. Nothing.

One of the best ways to steal people's money is to steal it before they ever see it. Its far easier to get somebody accustomed to half of their income taken when all they ever really see is the half they take home after the feds, state, etc. have helped themselves first.

Same with property taxes - if more people actually had to write the check instead of letting their mortgage company do it for them, they would far more outraged at the absolute massive amount of income that the various levels of government pilfer from us every single week.

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ding ding ding

People who pay their property tax all at once at the end of the year instead of monthly are far more educated on how these tax rates are set. I can guarantee you less than 1 percent of the population has ever been to a property tax rate hearing in their lives. Maybe even less than .1 percent of the population. I am sure less than .00001 percent of the population can even the name the lead appraiser of their county, or one board member of the taxing entities that are taxing them.

Quote:

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However, this thread seems to be more focused on the 47% that already have skin in the game.

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The thread title says 47% have no skin in the game.

TheWoodlandsTxAg said:

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schmellba99 said:

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cslifer said:

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Make it illegal for employers to do payroll deductions? Hard pass, we don't need more laws.

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Screw that.

Make people write the check weekly to the feds for their taxes. It would force them to realize how much of their income is forcibly stolen through the tax system and would absolutely change the mentality of a whole lot of people with regard to government and exactly what it does. That includes FICA, SS, Payroll, etc. All of it.

Nothing scares the government more than the citizens having knowledge. Nothing.

One of the best ways to steal people's money is to steal it before they ever see it. Its far easier to get somebody accustomed to half of their income taken when all they ever really see is the half they take home after the feds, state, etc. have helped themselves first.

Same with property taxes - if more people actually had to write the check instead of letting their mortgage company do it for them, they would far more outraged at the absolute massive amount of income that the various levels of government pilfer from us every single week.

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ding ding ding

People who pay their property tax all at once at the end of the year instead of monthly are far more educated on how these tax rates are set. I can guarantee you less than 1 percent of the population has ever been to a property tax rate hearing in their lives. Maybe even less than .1 percent of the population. I am sure less than .00001 percent of the population can even the name the lead appraiser of their county, or one board member of the taxing entities that are taxing them.

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But that is the lazy American way. Just like tipping (which is another mechanism for the lazy).

If you go to buy a car, they tell you "pay $500 a month!" rather than "It costs $35,000".

Why? Because it fits into the lazy American mindset which hates math (exposed by Vivek R but the racists jumped on him for showing us all a mirror).

HarleySpoon said:

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This thread is bizarre to me. Focus should be on getting the 53% that don't pay income tax to start having some skin in the game. Otherwise, they will continue to just vote to take their neighbors' property.

However, this thread seems to be more focused on the 47% that already have skin in the game.

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Half of the half that do have skin in the game have luxury beliefs, and think this money appears out of thin air. Make them see that it doesn't

Quote:

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Sorry. I couldn't find the meme

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Well that's a first!! Even supeman has an off day.

Quote:

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Up until 2013, no one paid income taxes and the country survived

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I assume that's a typo on the date!

But back to my question. Don't you agree that everyone should have skin in the game if some of us are going to?

LOYAL AG said:

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schmellba99 said:

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LOYAL AG said:

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Great idea that will result in the republicans losing every election forever. My company handles all things financial for a lot of small owners and I've learned two things. Entrepreneurs want to keep their money as long as possible and their employees want the largest refund they can get by paying in as much as possible throughout the year. The vast majority of Americans aren't capable of saving for their tax bill. As much as I love the idea because I'm the entrepreneur in the above it would be catastrophic for a huge portion of the country.

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F that huge portion of the country then.

Part of being an adult is doing things you don't like and understanding that you don't live in a world where instant gratification is the rule.

I also think you are completely wrong on this with r's losing every election forever. If people really knew how much taxes they pay, they would be beyond pissed off. But they don't because those taxes are paid before they ever see them. Out of sight, out of mind. In most people's mind they simply don't exist because of how the system operates (by design).

---

Most people don't care about politics except in the run up to Election Day. What they do care about is their daily lives and having more money on payday will be great until they have to write a check next April with money they don't have. That will be blamed on Republicans. Trust me, it won't go well. I have A LOT of conversations about withholding and the overwhelming majority end with the employee wanting to make sure they don't owe anything next April. Nearly all of them.

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Disagree completely.

Most people care about politics more than you want to think. And you obviously didn't read anything i wrote.

Make people write that check weekly or every pay period. Not once a year in April. Weekly. You conversations are based on trying to maximize benefit with the current system, which isn't wholly different argument than what I and others on here are making.

The only way to change anything is to ensure that every taxpayer is involved. There is going to be pain with any wholesale change, it is unavoidable. But short term pain for long term structural changes is absolutely worth it. Especially in a situation where the average blue collar hourly citizen is forced to reckon with the fact that a much larger percentage of their labor is sent to the feds (and wasted) than they honestly realize.

Again, the current system is how it is by design. The feds want people as much in the dark and ignorant as possible about the tax system. that is why it is convoluted and nigh impossible to truly understand, and why payroll taxes are paid "on your behalf" by your company and all other taxes are automatically deducted before you ever get your paycheck.

Highway6 said:

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cslifer said:

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Make it illegal for employers to do payroll deductions? Hard pass, we don't need more laws.

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Yes, and the fact people would not set aside the money to pay later, and end up in hot water with the IRS. What a mess

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It would be so disruptive that it would likel.y finally lead to a more simple and fair tax structure. Libs terrified of this.

Elite liberals don't pay taxes, taxes pay them

TheWoodlandsTxAg said:

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47% of Americans pay zero federal income tax, and some get EITC, refundable child tax credits, and money after paying 0 federal taxes. How is it fair for someone to get a EITC, refundable child tax credits, and other credits if they have never contributed a single cent in federal income taxes ever?

This is on top of the already extremely generous Medicaid, SNAP/food stamps, TANF, WIC, public education (the US spends more per pupil that any other country), government funded community hospitals/hospital districts, and countless other government funded welfare programs that people who have never contributed one cent in federal income taxes qualify for.

During budget reconciliation, Republicans should end all payroll deductions by employers including deductions for federal income tax, SS, and Medicare. Make it illegal for employers to make payroll deductions. Make the middle class voter write the check for $40K-90K out of their account every year, and then see if they will take this issue seriously.

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Middle class Americans are not paying 40-90k in net federal income taxes. That is the problem. 80% of Americans effective have the best possible tax situation and are paying less than if there was a flat tax in effect.

Politicians are not stupid. They have a very small subset of Americans largely footing the bill without recourse at the ballot box.

ttu_85 said:

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Even with all these taxes we have a deficit of $36T. That is the greatest danger facing our republic. I hate paying taxes too. But even if we cut spending this millstone is still tied to our necks.

Realistically how do we solve this problem ? And no tariffs wont remotely do the job.

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If the government can print money out of thin air, why do we have to pay taxes at all?

Quote:

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I assume that's a typo on the date!

But back to my question. Don't you agree that everyone should have skin in the game if some of us are going to?

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Yes, a mental lapse. Meant to say 1913.

I agree that everyone should be paying if a few have to, but (and I think you agree with this) I believe that taxing income is wrong and just another way for big government to get into our lives.

Amen to that!

ttu_85 said:

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Even with all these taxes we have a deficit of $36T. That is the greatest danger facing our republic. I hate paying taxes too. But even if we cut spending this millstone is still tied to our necks.

Realistically how do we solve this problem ? And no tariffs wont remotely do the job.

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The event horizon has been crossed already. The debt will be defaulted on one way or another. Either a hard default or a soft default via currency debasement.

Its Texas Aggies, dammit said:

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ttu_85 said:

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Even with all these taxes we have a deficit of $36T. That is the greatest danger facing our republic. I hate paying taxes too. But even if we cut spending this millstone is still tied to our necks.

Realistically how do we solve this problem ? And no tariffs wont remotely do the job.

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If the government can print money out of thin air, why do we have to pay taxes at all?

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The scheme only works if they maintain the illusion that the U.S. economy is capable of generating enough tax revenue to pay back the debt. The whole world collapses if the American taxpayer can't afford this **** anymore.