Dunno if it got linked but a movie review from a substack hits on some of this:

https://www.aaronrenn.com/p/father-stu

Quote:

---

The first big thing that the film does is simply tell the story like it's a story in a male genre. In Jonathan Haidt's new book The Anxious Generation, he explains that one of the reasons that boys and girls get addicted differently to the online world is because men and womencross-culturallyprioritize different values. Women prioritize what he calls "communion" (i.e., relationships), and men prioritize what he calls "agency" (e.g., going from weak to strong, overcoming obstacles, enemies, and trials). That's why girls are more likely to get addicted to social media and boys are more likely to get addicted to video games.

This is also why the different genres of movies appeal more to men or women. Romances and Hallmark movies are built around the hero overcoming barriers to communion. This means the average plot revolves around people resisting a relationship with each other or needing to reconcile with each other. Typically that means humbling yourself of your pride and self-sufficiency to remove those barriers to communion in a relationship. (This is also why women apologize differently than men; when men say "I'm sorry", it typically means, "I was wrong". When women say "I'm sorry" it means, I will give up being right to restore this relationship.")

Meanwhile, men love sports movies and action movies because they appeal to the values of agency. A hero has a threat or obstacle to something he wants, but he's too weak to get it. So he has to overcome his inner weaknessesoften with the help of a mentorto become strong enough to overcome his external opponent and take his place in glory. Women have a harder time resonating with this story. So much so that, as film YouTuber Dan Murrell pointed out, men are much more likely to go to even female-led action movies than women are.

…

This is also why men and women tend to respond to different things in church. Women tend to resonate most with the Christian doctrine of "justification", whereas men tend to resonate more with the Christian doctrine of "sanctification". "Justification" is about what Jesus has done for us because of how he loves us, and the grace he's given us that he can't earn. The only thing wrong we can do is resist his love, and the only thing we need to do is let our self-reliance and accept his love, and he will make us Holy. "Sanctification" is growing to become more Christlike, which you do by partnering with God to overcome your weaknesses enough to become who he's called you to be, and to save the world from the darkness of The Devil. Churches trying to appeal to women tend to stress justification while ones appealing to men stress sanctification. The former accuse the latter of "works based righteousness" and the latter accuse the former of "cheap grace".

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CDUB98 said:

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Not sure when y'all are going to figure out that Zobel and The Banned believe every Protestant church is apostate.

Y'all talking to brick walls.

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What a wonderfully incorrect and divisive statement!

I will not apologize for trying to do whatever small thing I can do to get Christians to dig into their presuppositions and how those presuppositions affect their beliefs. Jesus prayed for us to be one. If I'm wrong, I'm ok with that. I'll convert if the truth is in a different denomination. I'm not tied to anything but the church Jesus founded, since He clearly did not write the Bible, tell us to read the Bible, suggest we can figure it out for ourselves, or any number of modern views that people don't even realize are modern inventions.

Picard said:

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OP has never heard of Cowboy Church?

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I was intrigued by the idea of cowboy churches so I watched a couple of services on the Internet.

Being a Lutheran, I'm accustomed to a more liturgical service.

CrackerJackAg said:

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Protestantism is often led by pastor couples cuddled up on billboards, modern and divisive and logically hard to swallow.

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Considering all the various denominations that have congregations that are just as historically conservative and based in history, that's not a great take. Conservative German Lutheran Churches staying true to the denomination's historical culture and ethos compared to the general assembly are a perfect example.

It really doesn't matter what denomination. You're trying to differentiate between modern feel good motivational speaker congregations and those that typically still preach redemption. Sweeping generalizations like this don't help the conversation.

Father Josiah Trenham on why he walked away from Protestantism and became Orthodox after being ordained as a Presbyterian Pastor. pic.twitter.com/HrQ0yv7ji5

— Ancient Masculinity (@Ancient_Masc) January 7, 2025

This is basically it, in a nutshell.

AGC said:

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Dunno if it got linked but a movie review from a substack hits on some of this:

https://www.aaronrenn.com/p/father-stu

Quote:

---

The first big thing that the film does is simply tell the story like it's a story in a male genre. In Jonathan Haidt's new book The Anxious Generation, he explains that one of the reasons that boys and girls get addicted differently to the online world is because men and womencross-culturallyprioritize different values. Women prioritize what he calls "communion" (i.e., relationships), and men prioritize what he calls "agency" (e.g., going from weak to strong, overcoming obstacles, enemies, and trials). That's why girls are more likely to get addicted to social media and boys are more likely to get addicted to video games.

This is also why the different genres of movies appeal more to men or women. Romances and Hallmark movies are built around the hero overcoming barriers to communion. This means the average plot revolves around people resisting a relationship with each other or needing to reconcile with each other. Typically that means humbling yourself of your pride and self-sufficiency to remove those barriers to communion in a relationship. (This is also why women apologize differently than men; when men say "I'm sorry", it typically means, "I was wrong". When women say "I'm sorry" it means, I will give up being right to restore this relationship.")

Meanwhile, men love sports movies and action movies because they appeal to the values of agency. A hero has a threat or obstacle to something he wants, but he's too weak to get it. So he has to overcome his inner weaknessesoften with the help of a mentorto become strong enough to overcome his external opponent and take his place in glory. Women have a harder time resonating with this story. So much so that, as film YouTuber Dan Murrell pointed out, men are much more likely to go to even female-led action movies than women are.

…

This is also why men and women tend to respond to different things in church. Women tend to resonate most with the Christian doctrine of "justification", whereas men tend to resonate more with the Christian doctrine of "sanctification". "Justification" is about what Jesus has done for us because of how he loves us, and the grace he's given us that he can't earn. The only thing wrong we can do is resist his love, and the only thing we need to do is let our self-reliance and accept his love, and he will make us Holy. "Sanctification" is growing to become more Christlike, which you do by partnering with God to overcome your weaknesses enough to become who he's called you to be, and to save the world from the darkness of The Devil. Churches trying to appeal to women tend to stress justification while ones appealing to men stress sanctification. The former accuse the latter of "works based righteousness" and the latter accuse the former of "cheap grace".

---

---

That is 100% correct. The process of Sanctification is extremely difficult, arduous, and time-consuming. It requires legitimate personal sacrifice and accountability.

In the modern world, all of the above are things women generally despise. They want the easy road and therefore focus entirely on the concept of forgiveness and ignore the demands God places on them. This always leads to the concept of "women can't sin".

Zobel said:

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Father Josiah Trenham on why he walked away from Protestantism and became Orthodox after being ordained as a Presbyterian Pastor. pic.twitter.com/HrQ0yv7ji5

— Ancient Masculinity (@Ancient_Masc) January 7, 2025

This is basically it, in a nutshell.

---

I can appreciate some of his sentiments on resisting the progressivism and continuing the church traditions as they always were. For someone professing to be reformed and allowing female eldership or presbyters is completely bogus and sad. I don't have any experience from the Presbyterian side, but am currently in a a reformed baptist church.

A few years ago I even poked around with researching some local orthodox churches, but some of the doctrinal beliefs would be just too far of a gap to bridge.

10andBOUNCE said:

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Zobel said:

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Father Josiah Trenham on why he walked away from Protestantism and became Orthodox after being ordained as a Presbyterian Pastor. pic.twitter.com/HrQ0yv7ji5

— Ancient Masculinity (@Ancient_Masc) January 7, 2025

This is basically it, in a nutshell.

---

I can appreciate some of his sentiments on resisting the progressivism and continuing the church traditions as they always were. For someone professing to be reformed and allowing female eldership or presbyters is completely bogus and sad. I don't have any experience from the Presbyterian side, but am currently in a a reformed baptist church.

A few years ago I even poked around with researching some local orthodox churches, but some of the doctrinal beliefs would be just too far of a gap to bridge.

---

I'd expect you stay where you're at until the dissonance is untenable, assuming you're thinking about this. It won't start with the big stuff. It'll start small. Teaching Sunday school where seniors in high school don't know basics of the faith that could easily be known if you just recited a creed (which will meet resistance at a basic level if you ask for it). Something like that. Then looking at how things are profaned, even if you don't proclaim them sacred. Kids running up and grabbing communion crackers and pounding grape juice, even if it's symbolic, should make you ask how one can take communion in an unworthy manner if that's not it. Etc.

I don't disagree with you.

One of the things we like the most is the liturgical nature we follow on Sundays. Weekly communion, albeit with a different "loaf" as zobel has so eloquently stated. Common cup (wine) and a common loaf (homemade unleavened bread) that all take part in with the elders (all men) administering up front. Mostly older hymns with mostly stringed instruments. No lights. No screens. One hymn each week from the psalter. A final benediction/exhortation followed by brief song (Praise God from whom all blessings flow..)

All should be on guard and watchful over our Sunday services.

It seemed impossible, a bridge too far for me too. Then you go, and it isn't. Shrug.

Nanomachines son said:

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AGC said:

---

Dunno if it got linked but a movie review from a substack hits on some of this:

https://www.aaronrenn.com/p/father-stu

Quote:

---

The first big thing that the film does is simply tell the story like it's a story in a male genre. In Jonathan Haidt's new book The Anxious Generation, he explains that one of the reasons that boys and girls get addicted differently to the online world is because men and womencross-culturallyprioritize different values. Women prioritize what he calls "communion" (i.e., relationships), and men prioritize what he calls "agency" (e.g., going from weak to strong, overcoming obstacles, enemies, and trials). That's why girls are more likely to get addicted to social media and boys are more likely to get addicted to video games.

This is also why the different genres of movies appeal more to men or women. Romances and Hallmark movies are built around the hero overcoming barriers to communion. This means the average plot revolves around people resisting a relationship with each other or needing to reconcile with each other. Typically that means humbling yourself of your pride and self-sufficiency to remove those barriers to communion in a relationship. (This is also why women apologize differently than men; when men say "I'm sorry", it typically means, "I was wrong". When women say "I'm sorry" it means, I will give up being right to restore this relationship.")

Meanwhile, men love sports movies and action movies because they appeal to the values of agency. A hero has a threat or obstacle to something he wants, but he's too weak to get it. So he has to overcome his inner weaknessesoften with the help of a mentorto become strong enough to overcome his external opponent and take his place in glory. Women have a harder time resonating with this story. So much so that, as film YouTuber Dan Murrell pointed out, men are much more likely to go to even female-led action movies than women are.

…

This is also why men and women tend to respond to different things in church. Women tend to resonate most with the Christian doctrine of "justification", whereas men tend to resonate more with the Christian doctrine of "sanctification". "Justification" is about what Jesus has done for us because of how he loves us, and the grace he's given us that he can't earn. The only thing wrong we can do is resist his love, and the only thing we need to do is let our self-reliance and accept his love, and he will make us Holy. "Sanctification" is growing to become more Christlike, which you do by partnering with God to overcome your weaknesses enough to become who he's called you to be, and to save the world from the darkness of The Devil. Churches trying to appeal to women tend to stress justification while ones appealing to men stress sanctification. The former accuse the latter of "works based righteousness" and the latter accuse the former of "cheap grace".

---

---

That is 100% correct. The process of Sanctification is extremely difficult, arduous, and time-consuming. It requires legitimate personal sacrifice and accountability.

In the modern world, all of the above are things women generally despise. They want the easy road and therefore focus entirely on the concept of forgiveness and ignore the demands God places on them. This always leads to the concept of "women can't sin".

---

Those are very interesting takes. Seems there is something to it. Not so much "easy road" per-se, but it even somewhat accounts for the strong emphasis on money income level beyond what security might need. You see all those nutty videos of the `requirements' girls are setting these days. But that's not all that new --- this connection between *which* doctrine might tend to be accepted or sell more to a given sex, is a new thing that certainly provokes some thought.

Zobel said:

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It seemed impossible, a bridge too far for me too. Then you go, and it isn't. Shrug.

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Indeed. Went three Sundays in a row and never wanted to return to where I was.

AGC said:

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10andBOUNCE said:

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Zobel said:

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Father Josiah Trenham on why he walked away from Protestantism and became Orthodox after being ordained as a Presbyterian Pastor. pic.twitter.com/HrQ0yv7ji5

— Ancient Masculinity (@Ancient_Masc) January 7, 2025

This is basically it, in a nutshell.

---

I can appreciate some of his sentiments on resisting the progressivism and continuing the church traditions as they always were. For someone professing to be reformed and allowing female eldership or presbyters is completely bogus and sad. I don't have any experience from the Presbyterian side, but am currently in a a reformed baptist church.

A few years ago I even poked around with researching some local orthodox churches, but some of the doctrinal beliefs would be just too far of a gap to bridge.

---

I'd expect you stay where you're at until the dissonance is untenable, assuming you're thinking about this. It won't start with the big stuff. It'll start small. Teaching Sunday school where seniors in high school don't know basics of the faith that could easily be known if you just recited a creed (which will meet resistance at a basic level if you ask for it). Something like that. Then looking at how things are profaned, even if you don't proclaim them sacred. Kids running up and grabbing communion crackers and pounding grape juice, even if it's symbolic, should make you ask how one can take communion in an unworthy manner if that's not it. Etc.

---

I'd say everyone has their own version of what they have to guard against and what parts of God's aspects speak to their lives the most, and honestly we all will tend to overreact to issues we see in others to ensure we don't fall into the same traps. Usually it is derived from "Christians" being hypocrites and the desire to correct for that in our own faith. For me, I have almost developed an allergy to liturgy based on the people I have known in the past and how they lived their lives outside of the ceremonies. It has been a struggle for me to fight against equating all of it with legalism and hypocrisy. It's probably why if we move to a new town, it takes 6 months to a year to find a Church I am comfortable with.

Which is yours?

Interesting take. I have always found the Catholic or Orthodox liturgy aspect one of the more compelling things. To have something in common with the earliest days, when you are reading documents, and from the Upper Room to to later Byzantine Emperors they are doing certain simple things the same -- -that's always seemed special. And the things different you can see where they derived from, and themselves a reminder of the great conversion of the Empire.

We have been a member of our independent Baptist church for about 15 years, though I have always been drawn to the "Completed Jewish" perspective and have been to several Messianic Jewish gatherings. I have always felt there is a danger of knowing a lot about God, but without actually knowing God, and being overly liturgical seems dangerous to me.

"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 On that day many will say to me, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?' 23 And then will I declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.'


I am not saying that Liturgy is bad in any way, but the ways we can allow our personal relationship with God fall by the wayside are many and varied.

ETA: When reading the Scripture, there is a theme of releasing from the letter of the Law and a retying to the spirit of the Law (ie Do not murder is actually do not harbor hate in your heart), which is actually much more strict, because it can't be faked outwardly and requires a personal relationship with God to follow. It just never made sense to me for Jesus to release us from Jewish patterns of rules and ceremonies only to replace them with new ones that were just different versions of the same thing.

So abolition of the law instead of fulfillment?

Curious how Zobel feels about the idea of marriage betrothals in the context of fighting against any and all progressivism.

10andBOUNCE said:

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Curious how Zobel feels about the idea of marriage betrothals in the context of fighting against any and all progressivism.

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Can't speak for him but I'm 100% in favor of arranged marriages and my daughters know their priced in goats.

Not at all. The Law is not God, though. The Law was made for Man. and the purpose of it was not to have rules to follow, but to demonstrate what results from being out of right relationship with God. The Law is like a list of symptoms to watch for, not a checklist for Righteousness.

AGC said:

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10andBOUNCE said:

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Curious how Zobel feels about the idea of marriage betrothals in the context of fighting against any and all progressivism.

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Can't speak for him but I'm 100% in favor of arranged marriages and my daughters know their priced in goats.

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I wouldn't accept anything offered that didn't include camels

Phatbob said:

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AGC said:

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10andBOUNCE said:

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Curious how Zobel feels about the idea of marriage betrothals in the context of fighting against any and all progressivism.

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Can't speak for him but I'm 100% in favor of arranged marriages and my daughters know their priced in goats.

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I wouldn't accept anything offered that didn't include camels

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I don't know, I kind of like how Laban had Jacob work for him for what, 20 years?

10andBOUNCE said:

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Phatbob said:

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AGC said:

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10andBOUNCE said:

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Curious how Zobel feels about the idea of marriage betrothals in the context of fighting against any and all progressivism.

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Can't speak for him but I'm 100% in favor of arranged marriages and my daughters know their priced in goats.

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I wouldn't accept anything offered that didn't include camels

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I don't know, I kind of like how Laban had Jacob work for him for what, 20 years?

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You know it ate at him every time she pointed out that she could see his butt crack every time he bent over... "20 years... for that?!?!"

Phatbob said:

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Not at all. The Law is not God, though. The Law was made for Man. and the purpose of it was not to have rules to follow, but to demonstrate what results from being out of right relationship with God. The Law is like a list of symptoms to watch for, not a checklist for Righteousness.

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Don't tell me, tell Jesus. He's got a long diatribe about it.

AGC said:

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Phatbob said:

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Not at all. The Law is not God, though. The Law was made for Man. and the purpose of it was not to have rules to follow, but to demonstrate what results from being out of right relationship with God. The Law is like a list of symptoms to watch for, not a checklist for Righteousness.

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Don't tell me, tell Jesus. He's got a long diatribe about it.

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Exactly!

"For I tell you, unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven"

Considering the scribes and Pharisees were quite proud of following the Law to the letter, that should tell us something about the Law and its relationship to righteousness.

Phatbob said:

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AGC said:

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10andBOUNCE said:

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Curious how Zobel feels about the idea of marriage betrothals in the context of fighting against any and all progressivism.

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Can't speak for him but I'm 100% in favor of arranged marriages and my daughters know their priced in goats.

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I wouldn't accept anything offered that didn't include camels

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"Sallah, I said no camels! That's five camels, can't you count?"

Phatbob said:

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AGC said:

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Phatbob said:

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Not at all. The Law is not God, though. The Law was made for Man. and the purpose of it was not to have rules to follow, but to demonstrate what results from being out of right relationship with God. The Law is like a list of symptoms to watch for, not a checklist for Righteousness.

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Don't tell me, tell Jesus. He's got a long diatribe about it.

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Exactly!

"For I tell you, unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven"

Considering the scribes and Pharisees were quite proud of following the Law to the letter, that should tell us something about the Law and its relationship to righteousness.

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Go back a few verses. I'm done with this tangent now.

I am not diminishing the importance of the Law at all. It just isn't what we think of when we think of "laws" in our current society

if completed Judaism interests you, i have great news! Orthodoxy is the closest thing to first century Judaism that exists in the world today, because it is a first century Judaism with an unbroken tradition consistently taught from the Apostles (who were Judeans) onward.

the Torah or Law never changed. it was never reduced or eliminated in any way. it applies just as much to you as it did to the first non-Jewish "God fearers" St Peter and St Paul baptized. it was not abolished, or edited, or minimized.

you will not find in any Christian tradition a more coherent approach to the Torah, the application and interpretation of the Torah to non-Jewish Christians, and a faithful keeping of the feasts, fasts, and sacrifices of the OT than in Orthodoxy. because we never lost any of it. i know it is a bold claim, but it also happens to be true.

Thank you Zobel! I accept the invitation in the spirit that it was given! While I love the Completed Jewish movement, I'm not Jewish, and as being Gentile... I don't feel the necessity to do all the Jewish ceremonies. Also my concerns would still be in place and they'd have to kick me out for my heresies anyways.

We don't do the "Jewish ceremonies" because we're not Judeans. But we do worship the same way non Judeans followers of the Jewish Messiah Jesus did - including following the Torah the way they did.

Oh, I totally believe you do have the same practices of some of the first organized Churches. That doesn't mean they are all necessary or were necessary at that time. Not good, not bad, just different.

That's not what St Paul says. Or Jesus.

Zobel said:

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That's not what St Paul says. Or Jesus.

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One of us is misunderstanding the Word. More than willing to admit it could be me, but If I thought I was wrong, we wouldn't be having this conversation.

Zobel said:

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if completed Judaism interests you, i have great news! Orthodoxy is the closest thing to first century Judaism that exists in the world today, because it is a first century Judaism with an unbroken tradition consistently taught from the Apostles (who were Judeans) onward.

the Torah or Law never changed. it was never reduced or eliminated in any way. it applies just as much to you as it did to the first non-Jewish "God fearers" St Peter and St Paul baptized. it was not abolished, or edited, or minimized.

you will not find in any Christian tradition a more coherent approach to the Torah, the application and interpretation of the Torah to non-Jewish Christians, and a faithful keeping of the feasts, fasts, and sacrifices of the OT than in Orthodoxy. because we never lost any of it. i know it is a bold claim, but it also happens to be true.

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You need to specify Biblical Judaism and not Talmudic Judaism. The former is very different from the latter. These are effectively different religions. The former are forward looking Christians while the latter is Satanic in nature.

It's important to make the distinction here so that people do not get the wrong idea and equate modern Talmudic Judaism to what the Orthodox are doing. You guys follow what God wanted, the modern Jews rejected all of that. Hugely different situation.

If the RCC and Orthodox convened an eccumenical council and allowed cosnervative protestants to attend as equals...... there would be a MASSIVE number of Protestant interest and willingness to take part. I actually am hoping a new pope (after this one) would be willing to do this. I know that our presiding minister in the CREC would attend.

I believe the pressures of global secularism, widespread post-modernism, and general evil are impacting all branches of Christendom. Standing up against these forces is creating bridges between theological adversaries who are united in their concern for global Christendom.