Zobel said:

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Quote:

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EO church about 5 miles away proudly advertising being led by a woman.

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Right. Its not being realized that the RCC and EOC have processes of founding for a given church --- you can't just declare you are one like some Westboro invention.

99% of what we get upset about and what we rail against are the exceptions of other groups. They may not happen often, but they play a large role in confirming our biases. We always assume the exceptions of our own group are just that... exceptions. I feel the same way about the couple-led megachurches.

titan said:

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Zobel said:

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Quote:

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EO church about 5 miles away proudly advertising being led by a woman.

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Right. Its not being realized that the RCC and EOC have processes of founding for a given church --- you can't just declare you are one like some Westboro invention.

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lol like clockwork. You're right, but they do, in fact, call themselves EO and put it in big bold letters on their building, and some dude thinking he can walk into a church claiming to be EO because he saw online that it is the better option because he's tired of feminism is in for a surprise.

TheEternalOptimist said:

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All Christians should agree that:

1. Egalitarianism is anti-Christian
2. Abortion is evil in all circumstances and is an inverted sacrament of the enemies of Christ.
3. Homosexuality should have NO QUARTER in the Church at all. Homosexuals must repent and turn away from that sin. Marriage can NEVER be accepted as anything other than one man to one woman.

Anyone who calls themself a Christian and embraces abortion or homosexuality is deceiving themselves and everyone around them.

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You should add no fault divorce remarriage imo.

If a church doesn't want to allow homosexual marriage, that's their perogative. But they should ban any marriage viewed as sinful to be ideologically consistent.

I am curious how you view egalitarianism as inconsistent. Jesus's most basic tenets were loving everyone equally even if you don't agree with their choices. They all have the same worth.

Nanomachines son said:

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Unfortunately, this isn't real and it's a pure opinion piece. By numbers alone it isn't true at all. The Orthodox Church is declining like every other church in the US and it's rate of decline is higher than evangelical denominations like the SBC.

I understand the necessity for masculinity in the church and why we need it more than ever, but claims like this should always be backed up by data and this article has a lot of misleading information.

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The number of true adherents is increasing in Orthodoxy and Conservative Protestant churches. False Christians and/or liberal Churches are failing.

The difference is that in a non-denom the definition of your group is not clear. In the Orthodox church it is. You are either part of the church or you aren't, and if you are you are under a bishop and have a blessing to perform the divine services.

Please tell me the name of this church?

Can't do anything about people lying, but the name on the outside isn't what makes you part of the church or not.

Phatbob said:

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99% of what we get upset about and what we rail against are the exceptions of other groups. They may not happen often, but they play a large role in confirming our biases. We always assume the exceptions of our own group are just that... exceptions. I feel the same way about the couple-led megachurches.

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This has some merit, but some large scope `derails' are real -- like the Presbyterian USA and the Episcopalians.

Zobel said:

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The difference is that in a non-denom the definition of your group is not clear. In the Orthodox church it is. You are either part of the church or you aren't, and if you are you are under a bishop and have a blessing to perform the divine services.

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That's why there are doctrinal statements. Sadly, your point generally holds true because most churches either have one that is pitifully short and vague or none at all - which I would argue is red flag #1 when looking for a new protestant church. Start with those that have detailed and comprehensive doctrinal statements.

HarleySpoon said:

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The great number of billboard ministers are actually not associated with any protestant denomination. Yes, they can properly be described as Protestant…..but not part of any denomination with a formal structure outside the pastor's congregation.

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So basically Protestant…

Zobel said:

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The difference is that in a non-denom the definition of your group is not clear. In the Orthodox church it is. You are either part of the church or you aren't, and if you are you are under a bishop and have a blessing to perform the divine services.

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You clearly have a definition of your group. Others have a much less strict definition of your group than you do. Just like the OP and some of the Catholics on this thread have a very general view of "Protestants". You obviously have a very strict version of what is theologically correct, as do I (though we probably differ some). I would not include Protestant apostasy as being any more correct than you would, but I also still have differences with non-Protestant theology, but we probably agree on the major theological points more than we would either agree with liberal gatherings of any denomination.

Definitely Not A Cop said:

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TheEternalOptimist said:

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All Christians should agree that:

1. Egalitarianism is anti-Christian
2. Abortion is evil in all circumstances and is an inverted sacrament of the enemies of Christ.
3. Homosexuality should have NO QUARTER in the Church at all. Homosexuals must repent and turn away from that sin. Marriage can NEVER be accepted as anything other than one man to one woman.

Anyone who calls themself a Christian and embraces abortion or homosexuality is deceiving themselves and everyone around them.

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You should add no fault divorce remarriage imo.

If a church doesn't want to allow homosexual marriage, that's their perogative. But they should ban any marriage viewed as sinful to be ideologically consistent.

I am curious how you view egalitarianism as inconsistent. Jesus's most basic tenets were loving everyone equally even if you don't agree with their choices. They all have the same worth.

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If it allows homosexual marriage is it even a legit church?

Nanomachines son said:

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Unfortunately, this isn't real and it's a pure opinion piece. By numbers alone it isn't true at all. The Orthodox Church is declining like every other church in the US and it's rate of decline is higher than evangelical denominations like the SBC.

I understand the necessity for masculinity in the church and why we need it more than ever, but claims like this should always be backed up by data and this article has a lot of misleading information.

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This is not true…

Orthodox Church is growing in this country. Especially since COVID. There is no decline.

I'm in a Church and involved with new members. Its growth is incredible. Churches are bursting and we are attempting to build new ones.

Not any different than one that remarries divorced people. If your church values the traditional view of the sanctity of marriage that's great. But that should be the absolutely traditional view, not one that has exceptions that you don't care about. Otherwise, it's hypocritical imo.

Quote:

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2) Too many churches have abandoned a sense of sacredness in the worship - a worship gathering should NOT resemble a modern concert.

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This is something that has bunched my undies for a while. I call it, "the wall of praise." A line of people up there singing with a band, sometimes an orchestra behind them. It all feels completely fake.

I say this as someone who led praise and worship sessions when I was in single life, and also went to contemporary services. Both what I did, and the services I attended ministered to the needs of those people at that time. While it was somewhat like a concert (services), it wasn't this fake "wall of praise." with 6-10 people just lined up singing away.

Obviously, I'm not one who believes a church must worship exactly as it did 2000 years ago. The style of worship changes with society. BUT, there must be a sincerity to it. We don't need to go back to liturgy only, nor SBC old school hymns only, but there needs to be a real sincerity brought back. Something needs to change away from the housewife music.

Nashville has invaded Christian music just as badly as it has with what use to be country music. It's all manufactured, pop garbage, and when the "source code" starts out as garbage, it's hard to make it anything but that in church. That's part of why the late 90s, early 00s were so great. People were writing their own stuff and style independently and it was sincere, at least IMO.

Maybe I'm just an old man yelling at a cloud now, but I tend to just zone out of the music and wait for the preaching, which thankfully, Greg Matte still goes a good job.

In my case it seemed to be more difficult to become Catholic than it is to become a Christian. I say this as a Protestant married to a Catholic spouse.

I'm previously divorced. Attended RCIA knowing an annulment is required. Was told by two priests that I need to find the right priest to get an annulment. Was told by a third priest that I didn't have enough passion to deserve an annulment. Seems like I need more works than faith. After experiencing all that it seems the priests I spoke with had more in common with the Pharisees and Sadducees than Christ and the Christian church.

I agree that Protestant churches have their own set of issues. Man makes "religion" difficult not Christ.

https://juicyecumenism.com/2018/10/15/christian-church-disciples-christ/

The fall of the Disciples of Christ (think TCU) .....1/3 of the members they had in 1970!

Every time they adopt a new liberal/left position, more people leave.

But the PCA (conservative Presbyterians) are INCREASING in number.

The issue is LIBERALISM.

CrackerJackAg said:

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Nanomachines son said:

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Unfortunately, this isn't real and it's a pure opinion piece. By numbers alone it isn't true at all. The Orthodox Church is declining like every other church in the US and it's rate of decline is higher than evangelical denominations like the SBC.

I understand the necessity for masculinity in the church and why we need it more than ever, but claims like this should always be backed up by data and this article has a lot of misleading information.

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This is not true…

Orthodox Church is growing in this country. Especially since COVID. There is no decline.

I'm in a Church and involved with new members. Its growth is incredible. Churches are bursting and we are attempting to build new ones.

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Strictly anecdotally, this appears true. These days find many know what I am talking about with mention of Orthodox or even the Eastern Roman Empire and its role in church history without having to sketch it out. That was far less true in the Bush admin days and the 90's. There is a palpable and increased awareness of East `Orthodoxy' in general -- even at lay conversation levels now on social media. Again, though, just anecdotal. The ROC has some of the role --- more have heard of them in relation to events in Eastern Europe.

Quote:

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Protestantism is often led by pastor couples cuddled up on billboards, modern and divisive and logically hard to swallow.

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If I recall, Can't Orthodox Priests be married if they are married before they become a priest? How is this hard to swallow for you?

CrackerJackAg said:

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Nanomachines son said:

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Unfortunately, this isn't real and it's a pure opinion piece. By numbers alone it isn't true at all. The Orthodox Church is declining like every other church in the US and it's rate of decline is higher than evangelical denominations like the SBC.

I understand the necessity for masculinity in the church and why we need it more than ever, but claims like this should always be backed up by data and this article has a lot of misleading information.

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This is not true…

Orthodox Church is growing in this country. Especially since COVID. There is no decline.

I'm in a Church and involved with new members. Its growth is incredible. Churches are bursting and we are attempting to build new ones.

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Use data, not anecdotes.

My Baptist church is exploding and so is the local Catholic Church. These are not representative of the SBC nor the Catholic Church as a whole as both are declining.

With that said, rates of decline across the board are slowing.

TheEternalOptimist said:

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People are flocking to Orthodoxy and Catholicism again because they see the thin veneer of the concert style church with pushes emotional response to the show fog, bright lights, dancing around on stage, etc......

As a Protestant, the main issues I see with broader Protestantism are:

1) Too many churches have embrace female pastoral leadership - egalitarianism.
2) Too many churches have abandoned a sense of sacredness in the worship - a worship gathering should NOT resemble a modern concert.
3) Too many churches have abandoned the rhythm of life that the liturgical calendar and seasons bring the church - Luther and Calvin practiced high church liturgy.
4) Non-Denominational churches, especially, have NO ecclesiastical authority outside of themselves to correct error.
5) Most Protestant churches are NOT practicing weekly communion/eucharist.

I would be lying if I said I did not see the beauty in the Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox churches. As a former Southern Baptist, I used to think the iconography and all the depictions of Mary, Peter, etc... were borderline idolic. I no longer have this view. What is being communicated is the history of the Church, the Holy Scriptures, the present Church, and the future. I find nothing but beauty in the stations of the cross or a crucifix now.

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You make some interesting points. I have heard them before, from my son, who is a graduate of the Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary. He now pastors a non-denominational church in Washington County and engages in the German Reformed tradition - definitely the most traditional form of worship I have ever attended.

CDUB98 said:

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Quote:

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2) Too many churches have abandoned a sense of sacredness in the worship - a worship gathering should NOT resemble a modern concert.

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This is something that has bunched my undies for a while. I call it, "the wall of praise." A line of people up there singing with a band, sometimes an orchestra behind them. It all feels completely fake.

I say this as someone who led praise and worship sessions when I was in single life, and also went to contemporary services. Both what I did, and the services I attended ministered to the needs of those people at that time. While it was somewhat like a concert (services), it wasn't this fake "wall of praise." with 6-10 people just lined up singing away.

Obviously, I'm not one who believes a church must worship exactly as it did 2000 years ago. The style of worship changes with society. BUT, there must be a sincerity to it. We don't need to go back to liturgy only, nor SBC old school hymns only, but there needs to be a real sincerity brought back. Something needs to change away from the housewife music.

Nashville has invaded Christian music just as badly as it has with what use to be country music. It's all manufactured, pop garbage, and when the "source code" starts out as garbage, it's hard to make it that in church. That's part of why the late 90s, early 00s were so great. People were writing their own stuff and style independently and it was sincere, at least IMO.

Maybe I'm just an old man yelling at a cloud now, but I tend to just zone out of the music and wait for the preaching, which thankfully, Greg Matte still goes a good job.

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I also can't stand the "performance" services, but I have also been to plenty of services and masses where there was no group up front, yet no one there was doing anything but going through the motions. It's not specific to a denomination, it is specific to the group of people gathering there. If there is no personal involvement in worship, it doesn't matter if you are Catholic or Protestant. Both groups can point to dysfunction in the other one and be technically correct.

TRD-Ferguson said:

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In my case it seemed to be more difficult to become Catholic than it is to become a Christian. I say this as a Protestant married to a Catholic spouse.

I'm previously divorced. Attended RCIA knowing an annulment is required. Was told by two priests that I need to find the right priest to get an annulment. Was told by a third priest that I didn't have enough passion to deserve an annulment. Seems like I need more works than faith. After experiencing all that it seems the priests I spoke with had more in common with the Pharisees and Sadducees than Christ and the Christian church.

I agree that Protestant churches have their own set of issues. Man makes "religion" difficult not Christ.

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You are right about the first paragraph. Sometimes not even in a good way. They have added hoops even to Catholics to getting married and the process that have actually made it increasingly necessary to miss having it in a church if your venue was out of state and not home parish. Lets just say it doesn't square well with the fact in earlier eras even a marriage on a ship was possible.

CrackerJackAg said:

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I think young people also see the divisiveness of Protestantism. I think people see the extreme fragmentation of The Church after Roman Catholicism in the west and I think most logically come to the opinion that they are all a mess and wrong. They all get lumped together regardless of your opinion of particular sect.

I think it's simply judge a tree by its fruit and I do not believe Protestantism has born positive fruit. I think in an honest moment most people (not just the Protestants in it) would agree there was probably a better solution than insane division and turmoil

I think Protestantism held up much better in the past before people had access to endless & unlimited information.

I AM NOT SAYING THAT THERE ARE NOT VALID CHRISTIAN'S FOUND IN PROTESTANT MEETING PLACES.

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You might be off here. Major Protestant churchs in my area (Village, Watermark, 121, Countryside Bible, Fellowship) are FULL and growing with young people.

Phatbob said:

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CDUB98 said:

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I also can't stand the "performance" services, but I have also been to plenty of services and masses where there was no group up front, yet no one there was doing anything but going through the motions. It's not specific to a denomination, it is specific to the group of people gathering there. If there is no personal involvement in worship, it doesn't matter if you are Catholic or Protestant. Both groups can point to dysfunction in the other one and be technically correct.

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As someone who has sat through many Catholic masses and contemporary Protestant services, you took the words right out of my mouth.

TheEternalOptimist said:

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Aggie97 said:

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This article talks about men are flocking to the Orthodox Church due it be more masculine than their feminist Protestant churches. I am Greek Orthodox who attends an Antichion Church and noticed more single men joining our church.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/us/news/2025/01/04/the-young-men-leaving-traditional-churches-for-orthodox/

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I am a protestant, but a deeply conservative and liturgical protestant. I am in the CREC... same denomination as Doug Wilson and Pete Hegseth.

I think a lot of critics of Protestantism paint us all with a broad brush.

I have learned to not paint all Catholics and Orthodox with one either.

Those who call upon the name of the triune God, repent of sin, and seek to follow Christ are my brothers and sisters.

May God grow your Church and may God unite all of Christendom together in future years.

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Amen.. The unifying factor for the Christian Church is the Apostle's Creed. Which was first written in 431AD.

I think it's important and necessary for a church to have Doctrinal Statements. That said, do those statements agree with the Word of God?

The Methodist church had been a good "compromise" for my Catholic wife and me. When the recent split occurred our Pastor boldly stated he had always been United Methodist and was going to remain a United Methodist. Maybe I took that wrong but it seems to me that he should have said he would stand with Christ.

doubledog said:

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TheEternalOptimist said:

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Aggie97 said:

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This article talks about men are flocking to the Orthodox Church due it be more masculine than their feminist Protestant churches. I am Greek Orthodox who attends an Antichion Church and noticed more single men joining our church.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/us/news/2025/01/04/the-young-men-leaving-traditional-churches-for-orthodox/

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I am a protestant, but a deeply conservative and liturgical protestant. I am in the CREC... same denomination as Doug Wilson and Pete Hegseth.

I think a lot of critics of Protestantism paint us all with a broad brush.

I have learned to not paint all Catholics and Orthodox with one either.

Those who call upon the name of the triune God, repent of sin, and seek to follow Christ are my brothers and sisters.

May God grow your Church and may God unite all of Christendom together in future years.

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Amen.. The unifying factor for the Christian Church is the Apostle's Creed. Which was first written in 431AD.

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Pretty sure that date is way off as in way too late, and some of the earliest forms are in the 2nd Century. Nicea itself is 325 AD. You seem to be thinking of the Council of Ephesus and the Nestorian controversy definitions.

TheEternalOptimist said:

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https://juicyecumenism.com/2018/10/15/christian-church-disciples-christ/

The fall of the Disciples of Christ (think TCU) .....1/3 of the members they had in 1970!

Every time they adopt a new liberal/left position, more people leave.

But the PCA (conservative Presbyterians) are INCREASING in number.

The issue is LIBERALISM.

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Which festers like a virus when people get away from biblical teaching.

People need to read their bibles. After all that is where biblical teaching lives. When you get to know the book the BS goes away.

I've had good and serious Christians tell me the bible is hard to understand. It can be especially if its in a different language than what you know. We dont speak in middle English.

Modern Translations such as the NIV, ESV, NLT are translated from original manuscripts that are older than what the KJV was derived from. Get an accurate translation you can read and form some of your own conclusions. You will have help- He's called the Holy Spirit.

CDUB98 said:

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Quote:

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2) Too many churches have abandoned a sense of sacredness in the worship - a worship gathering should NOT resemble a modern concert.

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This is something that has bunched my undies for a while. I call it, "the wall of praise." A line of people up there singing with a band, sometimes an orchestra behind them. It all feels completely fake.

I say this as someone who led praise and worship sessions when I was in single life, and also went to contemporary services. Both what I did, and the services I attended ministered to the needs of those people at that time. While it was somewhat like a concert (services), it wasn't this fake "wall of praise." with 6-10 people just lined up singing away.

Obviously, I'm not one who believes a church must worship exactly as it did 2000 years ago. The style of worship changes with society. BUT, there must be a sincerity to it. We don't need to go back to liturgy only, nor SBC old school hymns only, but there needs to be a real sincerity brought back. Something needs to change away from the housewife music.

Nashville has invaded Christian music just as badly as it has with what use to be country music. It's all manufactured, pop garbage, and when the "source code" starts out as garbage, it's hard to make it that in church. That's part of why the late 90s, early 00s were so great. People were writing their own stuff and style independently and it was sincere, at least IMO.

Maybe I'm just an old man yelling at a cloud now, but I tend to just zone out of the music and wait for the preaching, which thankfully, Greg Matte still goes a good job.

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I think this is a good point about Nashville. There are a lot of artists that are trying to make a buck by having a song that mentions Jesus. But some of my favorites artists are ones that started as talented secular artists, and God found them and changed them and now they they are worship artists. Those artists are very genuine to me, mostly because I didn't grow up in the faith so I resonate. But, even if those one off artists sings a song that brings someone to Jesus, who really cares if they are doing it just to make a buck? God can use all things.

I love modern worship. When I was first trying understand my faith at 43 years old, it was the concert that brought me in. I am often moved to tears. Sometimes hymns get me too, but not like the energy that a good worship band brings.

I think what bothers me most about this thread is the judgement between how people gather and worship God. I like modern worship. I study my bible everyday and lead my family according to its teachings. I don't think that make me less man than a Greek Orthodox. What makes me the cringe the most is that if someone is one this thread that is on the fence with Jesus, we as a collective Christians, didn't bring them any closer.

Its stuff like this creating an exodus

[url] [/url]

There is a church in Grand Junction almost identical to that, minus the woman pastor.

I used to think that way too, being raised in a baptist church.

I don't think it is necessarily about "less than" as much as it is about maximalism. Maximally following the worship patterns, teachings, and practice of the Apostles. There was a pattern of life handed down, St Paul talks about it a lot. The NT tells us over and over to follow that pattern of life. I came to understand that pattern is different than what is typically lived by most Americans.

To make it political - I think the dominant form of religion in the US is a heavily-calvinist-influenced protestantism, which has good and bad points to it. But the chief bad about it is that it is the dominant form of religion in the US and in that role it reflects US society more than it influences it. That's why as US society changes, the center of gravity of that religion changes too. Pick a topic... divorce, birth control, homosexuality, even actual politics.

We can say yeah well those are just liberal x y z denominations but the bottom line is the "overton window" for US protestant groups moves with the US culture. The form of worship actually reflects that, it's part of it.

It should not be this way, in my opinion.

If people need to understand why the Church is still divided, this thread is a perfect example.

How about we celebrate the unique expressions of the Church body, so long as each is rooted in scripture and focused on being Christ's bride?

There are things I don't agree with in pretty much every denomination, but also beautiful things in them.

My wife is Catholic and I was raised in charismatic non-denominational churches. Very different upbringing. Her first non-Catholic church was the Vineyard here in Denver. It was weird to her and felt wrong, but she fell in love with the freedom of expression, the joy-filled worship, and the community. That's limited at the catholic church, but she feels the Holy Spirit there in a unique way, and even partakes in Communion!

Now we are attending a small non-denominational church with Presbyterian roots. It's conservative with male leadership. We both love it and are looking to get more involved. We also still attend the Catholic church my wife grew up in, and where we were married.

The first church was just a chaotic, and the rules laid out the Council of Jerusalem are pretty simple. The church description in Acts is also pretty simple, and the rules and requirements specified by Paul in his letters leave a lot open for leading and starting new churches. He even glorifies God when people lead churches / movements from the wrong motives, so that Christ is still preached!

"Finally, brothers, whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is just, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is commendable, if there is any excellence, if there is anything worthy of praise, think about these things." - Philippians 4:8

CrackerJackAg said:

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Quick thoughts…

This is not terribly new. It has a ton of young single males coming in since I joined.

I think there are a few factors. I think young men tend to be searching for what makes sense in today's world.

I think there are a lot of young men who "think about Rome" (if you are aware of that viral meme) and come to discover the Church via way of history.

The Church is solid, true and rooted deeply in history.

Protestantism is often led by pastor couples cuddled up on billboards, modern and divisive and logically hard to swallow.

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Hilarious take.