Twenty five years ago I attended a company Christmas party where I was working to get a consulting contract.
I sat at a table with one of there investors who was a retired CEO from I believe Chicago Bridge and Iron. Since he retired he worked on and received a patent for an underwater light used primarily for fishing off bulkheads and docks. He had grown bored and formed a startup to do design work on civil engineering projects. Had a small supervisory staff in Houston and outsourced engineering design to India. I asked why....

His response
1) English speakers
2) Incredibly meticulous and detailed
3) Willing to work 80 hours a week for $5 per hour

Evidently not much has changed since 1999.

infinity ag said:

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stick95 said:

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This is at 20 pages no way I am going to read all 20 pages. But 90% of these Indian H1B that are only coders and know nothing about software engineering are going be one of the first workforces to lose their jobs to AI. If you have an offshore software development business, you should be looking at your endgame, because winter is coming.

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Sorry, that is too simplistic.
If it was just a matter of tech then almost all jobs would have been hit. Politics is also at play. I work with AI and it is not at a point where you can just let it run riot and do its thing. Why don't we have self-driving cars on every street in every city? Because this is the real world. Politicians will not let large companies fire thousands "because of AI". That is why CEOs are forcing the RTO measures also, because politicians threatened their tax breaks. Nothing to do with "we need better collaboration".

Don't be a simpleton and blindly believe what some rich man said. He got rich by fooling dunderheads and simpletons.

AI will take over manual jobs. It will take over manufacturing. It will not take over innovation and intellectual work for various reasons both tech and political.

---

I use AI to develop software all day every day. I am successful with it because I know the right commands to give, can be specific about what code that want, recognize mistakes early and always have the bigger picture in mind. That is EXACTLY the skill set you need to work with H1Bs and offshore development companies. AI is not all the way there yet... but it is coming.

Eventually a handful talanted developers with some well written AI bots are going to be way more productive than a team of H1Bs or offshore, and it is less than a decade away.

revvie said:

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Twenty five years ago I attended a company Christmas party where I was working to get a consulting contract.
I sat at a table with one of there investors who was a retired CEO from I believe Chicago Bridge and Iron. Since he retired he worked on and received a patent for an underwater light used primarily for fishing off bulkheads and docks. He had grown bored and formed a startup to do design work on civil engineering projects. Had a small supervisory staff in Houston and outsourced engineering design to India. I asked why....

His response
1) English speakers
2) Incredibly meticulous and detailed
3) Willing to work 80 hours a week for $5 per hour

Evidently not much has changed since 1999.

---

I can see his POV.

But that does not mean the Govt should allow this. The Govt of US's job is to make sure US citizens benefit. If you (US citizen) want to work and are capable, there should be opportunities in the US. But that is not the case today. If you are a capable educated US citizen, you cannot survive so you give up and pick up another profession while the Indian Slave Army takes over.

Govt needs to step in and control this. This cannot work if US companies are expected to "do the right thing". Their right thing is just to make money (can't blame them). Free market cannot solve this because it can only work in an pre-defined environment (a country like the US). If you break the environment and make it "US + India" then it will end with both the US and India having the same living standards. That means US will lower itself and India will improve itself. That is a bad deal for us.

I totally agree with you. The system is being abused. Theoretically, they should be making the same as US worker in same capacity. Consulted with company that hired H1B staff in oil and gas sector. Became pretty close to one of the H1B hires from a former Soviet bloc country. He was making about 40% of what equivalent US contractors were being paid. They got around equal pay provision by hiring him from employee leasing firm which was owned by the principals of the company to which he was leased. As he said, complain and you don't get renewed and get sent back to the gulag. It is a total scam on the American worker.

revvie said:

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Twenty five years ago I attended a company Christmas party where I was working to get a consulting contract.
I sat at a table with one of there investors who was a retired CEO from I believe Chicago Bridge and Iron. Since he retired he worked on and received a patent for an underwater light used primarily for fishing off bulkheads and docks. He had grown bored and formed a startup to do design work on civil engineering projects. Had a small supervisory staff in Houston and outsourced engineering design to India. I asked why....

His response
1) English speakers
2) Incredibly meticulous and detailed
3) Willing to work 80 hours a week for $5 per hour

Evidently not much has changed since 1999.

---

number 2 sticks with me from experience. That doesn't mean they are "good" workers.

They can stick to a set checklist. If anything (which often happens in Tech and business in general) goes outside of that checklist, they are deer in the headlights and look around for leaders to tell them what to do. Or, they just do nothing and give you excuses as to why they couldnt do something...it wasnt on their checklist or not an established process. Basically, "not my problem, bro". Most of these problems can be solved by people with minimal problem-solving ability, but they dont see it in the JD so they dont do it. Or are whipped into only sticking to the programmed script by their management.

To pretend that a majority of them are are somehow "innovators" is disingenuous. They are being hired here because soon AI can take over their jobs and do just as poorly, but CEOs want to see OPEX go down and their stock prices to go higher. They will be kicked to the curb as soon as possible.

BadMoonRisin said:

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revvie said:

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Twenty five years ago I attended a company Christmas party where I was working to get a consulting contract.
I sat at a table with one of there investors who was a retired CEO from I believe Chicago Bridge and Iron. Since he retired he worked on and received a patent for an underwater light used primarily for fishing off bulkheads and docks. He had grown bored and formed a startup to do design work on civil engineering projects. Had a small supervisory staff in Houston and outsourced engineering design to India. I asked why....

His response
1) English speakers
2) Incredibly meticulous and detailed
3) Willing to work 80 hours a week for $5 per hour

Evidently not much has changed since 1999.

---

number 2 sticks with me from experience. That doesn't mean they are "good" workers.

They can stick to a set checklist. If anything (which often happens in Tech and business in general) goes outside of that checklist, they are deer in the headlights and look around for leaders to tell them what to do. Or, they just do nothing and give you excuses as to why they couldnt do something...it wasnt on their checklist or not an established process. Basically, "not my problem, bro".

To pretend that a majority of them are are somehow "innovators" is disingenuous. They are being hired here because soon AI can take over their jobs and do just as poorly, but CEOs want to see OPEX go down and their stock prices to go higher. They will be kicked to the curb as soon as possible.

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Number 2 is why he kept a supervisory staff in Houston, he also said that was biggest issue because they would often get bogged down in minutia and needed guidance to keep the project development on track.

How much did that cost? And it is a cost. Just a different part of the balance sheet.

BadMoonRisin said:

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Depends on what debate you want to have, and there are a lot out there, but listen...

H1-Bs were designed to bring in foreign talent if none can be found stateside.

That is not what they are being used for.

The fact that people are applying for these things for pickleball instructors, 7-11 cashiers, line cooks, etc, makes it extremely obvious.

The program needs reform, at minimum. If it is used appropriately, and there are process controls in place to ensure that the program is easy for those that fundamentally need to be over here in industries that are of strategic importance for the United States and hard for the people faking resumes just to not live in a country with designated ****ting streets, Im OK with it.

The fact that a majority of them are from India is automatically suspect -- why so little from Korea, Taiwan, Vietnam, China, Japan, Europe, etc? If we were actually concerned about .1% of genius talent, you would think they would come from all corners of the world, not just 60-70% India.

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If we were looking for elite human capital, we would be looking at Europe, the Anglo world, and North East Asia, the three places with the highest national average IQs in the world. India's average IQ is around 75. The amount of 130 IQ people from that nation is much less than the US, which has a much smaller population. It's a blatant lie any of these people are elite.

H1B program is not about the best and brightest. It's about cheap labor.

revvie said:

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H1B program is not about the best and brightest. It's about cheap labor.

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Are you sure? The few of these folks at my company are not 'cheap' labor. They were expensive to bring over and they are making comparable salaries. It was about getting what was felt the right talent, not cost cutting. I can't speak of course for every company out there.

An article from 2 years ago outlined the expenses of companies hiring using this visa approach:

https://www.forbes.com/sites/stuartanderson/2024/02/22/a-look-at-the-high-fees-making-hiring-h-1b-visa-holders-challenging/

Yes, they recoup those relatively small fees very quickly

Thread about how it's all exploited by companies for cheap labor:

If you're wondering why people are angry, try going through dozens of these fake interviews. Spending hrs preparing for each one just to not get a call back. Thats if the interviewer even has the decency to show.

They have no idea whats bubbling under the surface in this country

— Aesthetica (@Anc_Aesthetics) December 30, 2024

Another loophole using the “Valuable Resource” label. pic.twitter.com/PcUQifWhac

— Aesthetica (@Anc_Aesthetics) December 30, 2024

Yes exactly

— Aesthetica (@Anc_Aesthetics) December 29, 2024

This is criminal and these companies should be prosecuted and the lawyers involved disbarred.

gbaby23 said:

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Wow, that is a crazy distribution.

Our forefathers understood a thing or two

Nanomachines son said:

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infinity ag said:

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bmks270 said:

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New grads can't find work because 800k H1-Bs are being approved every year.

****ing ridiculous.

H1-B needs to be cut way way back.

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Exactly!

Truer words have never been spoken before.

My kid is a Computer Science student from a top 5 US university graduating next year. He is struggling to find a good internship leading to a good job (companies like Microsoft, Google, Amazon etc). His grades are stellar and he has some internship experience over the past 2 years as well (those were hard to get too).

Why?
Because entry level jobs in the US are scarce. These jobs have been shipped to slaves from India with no skills (US CEOs give these slaves jobs at low salaries and make experienced US workers to train them, and then they get rid of the US workers. The US CEOs don't care about quality because they get their bonus and are out in 3 years before sheet hits the fan).

The whole thing is a scam from top to bottom. You have been lied to for decades. If Trump does not fix this, he is an scumbag as well. I don't go by his words, I will go by his actions.

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Here is an example of what this post is speaking about:

T-Mobile H1B

2022 - 555

2023 - 416

2024 - 3117

This is wild - T-Mobile laid off 5k - 10k Americans between 2022 and 2024 and increased H1B employees by 462%.

— Marc Palasciano (@marc_palasciano) December 29, 2024

It's getting worse every year and they are even laying off Americans to fill them with foreigners they can pay less.

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It is a serious problem that everyone is laughing about. The Indians are laughing at US ("US" means both us in caps and United States).

Let's see what Trump does. All this pre-Presidency discussion is just talk. I hope he completely abrogates H1B and brings in a NEW program with all the loopholes plugged. We do need smart people coming in. We do not need slaves coming in designed to kill the labor market. Many here don't even understand the difference. They will, when some Abdul from Nigeria comes and takes away their job for $10k a year. Until then it is all sheets and giggles when it happens to other people who can be gaslit and called "lazy".

No country can survive this way. America has a lot of enemies internally who are plotting its destruction to benefit personally.

gbaby23 said:

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Indians just work harder!

If you do this for 130 IQ, which is generally what is needed to code well, the percentage of Indians is very low to be almost negligible. It's absolutely laughable that anyone thinks India is the place we need to get H1-B coders from rather than Europe or North East Asia.

Nanomachines son said:

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BadMoonRisin said:

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Depends on what debate you want to have, and there are a lot out there, but listen...

H1-Bs were designed to bring in foreign talent if none can be found stateside.

That is not what they are being used for.

The fact that people are applying for these things for pickleball instructors, 7-11 cashiers, line cooks, etc, makes it extremely obvious.

The program needs reform, at minimum. If it is used appropriately, and there are process controls in place to ensure that the program is easy for those that fundamentally need to be over here in industries that are of strategic importance for the United States and hard for the people faking resumes just to not live in a country with designated ****ting streets, Im OK with it.

The fact that a majority of them are from India is automatically suspect -- why so little from Korea, Taiwan, Vietnam, China, Japan, Europe, etc? If we were actually concerned about .1% of genius talent, you would think they would come from all corners of the world, not just 60-70% India.

---

If we were looking for elite human capital, we would be looking at Europe, the Anglo world, and North East Asia, the three places with the highest national average IQs in the world. India's average IQ is around 75. The amount of 130 IQ people from that nation is much less than the US, which has a much smaller population. It's a blatant lie any of these people are elite.

---

India has elite human capital too. Folks like Sundar Pichai (CEO Google), Satya Nadella etc are world class. Many went to IITs in India for engineering which is probably the hardest in the world to get into.

We must welcome these people.

What we must not do is allow to ship in people with fake degrees that they printed on the streets, ones who took "course" at local computer training shops. No, we don't need these people.

Added to this are the numbers. Even if there are smart people, we must watch how many we bring in. We do not want an invasion like what has happened in UK and Canada and other parts of Europe (yes, with Muslims which is way worse). We do not want people coming in and changing demographics and culture.

Nanomachines son said:

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gbaby23 said:

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Indians just work harder!

If you do this for 130 IQ, which is generally what is needed to code well, the percentage of Indians is very low to be almost negligible. It's absolutely laughable that anyone thinks India is the place we need to get H1-B coders from rather than Europe or North East Asia.

---

Bro, I am on your side on this debate, but this kind of "evidence" is nonsense. There are some really smart people in India and real dunderheads also. Let's get the geniuses here and keep out the doofuses. Right now, we allow everyone in.

gbaby23 said:

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Yes, they recoup those relatively small fees very quickly

---

This is misleading and an ad to "prove" why we need to bring H1Bs.

If the cost of a project manager is so high, then let the US market decide. The guy asking for 200k will not get hired and then reduce his price to 150k. Or lesser. Let the market decide.

But no, these people have broken the rules of free-market but at the same time shout the loudest about it.

infinity ag said:

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Nanomachines son said:

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gbaby23 said:

---

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Indians just work harder!

If you do this for 130 IQ, which is generally what is needed to code well, the percentage of Indians is very low to be almost negligible. It's absolutely laughable that anyone thinks India is the place we need to get H1-B coders from rather than Europe or North East Asia.

---

Bro, I am on your side on this debate, but this kind of "evidence" is nonsense. There are some really smart people in India and real dunderheads also. Let's get the geniuses here and keep out the doofuses. Right now, we being everyone in.

---

There are more smart people in America and Europe who would not be a cultural nuke on our society. The only reason people are being brought in from India is because they are cheap and work like slaves.

infinity ag said:

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gbaby23 said:

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Yes, they recoup those relatively small fees very quickly

---

This is misleading and an ad to "prove" why we need to bring H1Bs.

If the cost of a project manager is so high, then let the US market decide. The guy asking for 200k will not get hired and then reduce his price to 150k. Or lesser. Let the market decide.

But no, these people have broken the rules of free-market but at the same time shout the loudest about it.

---

BS. Importing cheap foreign labor is socialism for the rich. Americans are more important than any foreigner. If you can't pay the American market wage for an American worker, you need to fix your company rather then depending on the government to allow you to import labor.

Without government intervention, the citizens of this nation would have stopped foreign immigration long ago.

Here's Donald Trump's true feelings about H-1Bs. I'm hoping this is what we're shooting for here, the truth. pic.twitter.com/wxXaVQaXwv

— Dane (@UltraDane) December 29, 2024

gbaby23 said:

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infinity ag said:

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gbaby23 said:

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Yes, they recoup those relatively small fees very quickly

---

This is misleading and an ad to "prove" why we need to bring H1Bs.

If the cost of a project manager is so high, then let the US market decide. The guy asking for 200k will not get hired and then reduce his price to 150k. Or lesser. Let the market decide.

But no, these people have broken the rules of free-market but at the same time shout the loudest about it.

---

BS. Importing cheap foreign labor is socialism for the rich. Americans are more important than any foreigner. If you can't pay the American market wage for an American worker, you need to fix your company rather then depending on the government to allow you to import labor.

Without government intervention, the citizens of this nation would have stopped foreign immigration long ago.

---

I think we are saying the same or very similar things. What is "BS"?

gbaby23 said:

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infinity ag said:

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Nanomachines son said:

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gbaby23 said:

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Indians just work harder!

If you do this for 130 IQ, which is generally what is needed to code well, the percentage of Indians is very low to be almost negligible. It's absolutely laughable that anyone thinks India is the place we need to get H1-B coders from rather than Europe or North East Asia.

---

Bro, I am on your side on this debate, but this kind of "evidence" is nonsense. There are some really smart people in India and real dunderheads also. Let's get the geniuses here and keep out the doofuses. Right now, we being everyone in.

---

There are more smart people in America and Europe who would not be a cultural nuke on our society. The only reason people are being brought in from India is because they are cheap and work like slaves.

---

Exactly.

We need to stop this because it kills the local labor market and discourages local talent (Why get into high tech when my job will be shipped to India because it is cheaper even though quality is abysmal?).

infinity ag said:

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Nanomachines son said:

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gbaby23 said:

---

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Indians just work harder!

If you do this for 130 IQ, which is generally what is needed to code well, the percentage of Indians is very low to be almost negligible. It's absolutely laughable that anyone thinks India is the place we need to get H1-B coders from rather than Europe or North East Asia.

---

Bro, I am on your side on this debate, but this kind of "evidence" is nonsense. There are some really smart people in India and real dunderheads also. Let's get the geniuses here and keep out the doofuses. Right now, we being everyone in.

---

This is what the O-1 is for. The H1-B is never used for actual geniuses.

For example, Srinivasa Ramanujan, would have qualified for this.

You cannot say we need to get the geniuses to justify the H1-B program when we have an entirely separate program for the geniuses under the O-1.

Nanomachines son said:

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infinity ag said:

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Nanomachines son said:

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gbaby23 said:

---

---

Indians just work harder!

If you do this for 130 IQ, which is generally what is needed to code well, the percentage of Indians is very low to be almost negligible. It's absolutely laughable that anyone thinks India is the place we need to get H1-B coders from rather than Europe or North East Asia.

---

Bro, I am on your side on this debate, but this kind of "evidence" is nonsense. There are some really smart people in India and real dunderheads also. Let's get the geniuses here and keep out the doofuses. Right now, we being everyone in.

---

This is what the O-1 is for. The H1-B is never used for actual geniuses.

For example, Srinivasa Ramanujan, would have qualified for this.

You cannot say we need to get the geniuses to justify the H1-B program when we have an entirely separate program for the geniuses under the O-1.

---

Yes, we need super duper mega geniuses like Srinivasa Ramanujan! Too bad he went to England instead.

I wasn't familiar with O-1. Thanks, I will look it up.

infinity ag said:

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Nanomachines son said:

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infinity ag said:

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Nanomachines son said:

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gbaby23 said:

---

---

Indians just work harder!

If you do this for 130 IQ, which is generally what is needed to code well, the percentage of Indians is very low to be almost negligible. It's absolutely laughable that anyone thinks India is the place we need to get H1-B coders from rather than Europe or North East Asia.

---

Bro, I am on your side on this debate, but this kind of "evidence" is nonsense. There are some really smart people in India and real dunderheads also. Let's get the geniuses here and keep out the doofuses. Right now, we being everyone in.

---

This is what the O-1 is for. The H1-B is never used for actual geniuses.

For example, Srinivasa Ramanujan, would have qualified for this.

You cannot say we need to get the geniuses to justify the H1-B program when we have an entirely separate program for the geniuses under the O-1.

---

Yes, we need super duper mega geniuses like Srinivasa Ramanujan! Too bad he went to England instead.

I wasn't familiar with O-1. Thanks, I will look it up.

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I was just using him as an example of a super genius we would want, I know he never came here.

My bad. I misread your argument in that the US market should decide to import a foreigner if the American will not take a job he is qualified for less.

The problem currently though is that all of the market rates are being depressed, so it will be hell to even try to find out where they really equalize. When the Indians get too expensive, they will bring in Bangladeshis

This is hilarious the dude who started the H1B "skilled immigration" debate admits he's not even a good coder he's just a corporate bullshitter https://t.co/Tfzv2dzqmP

— frog (@i_m_cattle) December 30, 2024

🧵You thought the H-1B visa was bad? Wait until you hear about the largest guest worker program killing jobs for new American college grads—the Optional Practical Training (OPT):

• No caps⁰• Employers get payroll tax exemptions⁰• No wage requirements@NumbersUSA explains: pic.twitter.com/ipTyUe3oVy

— U.S. Tech Workers (@USTechWorkers) December 30, 2024

Logos Stick said:

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gbaby23 said:

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Wow, that is a crazy distribution.

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probably because it's implausible, and in all likelihood untrue. the iq threshold for intellectual disability is 70, and this distribution implies ~40% of india is below it. the actual measured prevalence is closer to 2%.

Old McDonald said:

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Logos Stick said:

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gbaby23 said:

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Wow, that is a crazy distribution.

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probably because it's implausible, and in all likelihood untrue. the iq threshold for intellectual disability is 70, and this distribution implies ~40% of india is below it. the actual measured prevalence is closer to 2%.

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Then you don't understand IQ distribution. It is a bell curve. The mean and the median are the same. In India, that number is around 75. Half are below that number whether you agree or not. HTH

Old McDonald said:

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Logos Stick said:

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gbaby23 said:

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Wow, that is a crazy distribution.

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probably because it's implausible, and in all likelihood untrue. the iq threshold for intellectual disability is 70, and this distribution implies ~40% of india is below it. the actual measured prevalence is closer to 2%.

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"Intellectual disability" is an arbitrary definition. It was put at 70 because that's two stdev below the US normed average and gave a nice clean number of 5% of the population; psychometricians classified that group as people that would struggle to compete in the job market due to a relative deficiency in intelligence.

Renormed to India's IQ average your term "intellectual disability" would apply to anyone under roughly 55 IQ, which probably is about 2% of the population