shack009 said:

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Zachary Klement said:

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shack009 said:

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Zachary Klement said:

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A lot of misguided ideas on that sub, but why do conservatives on here take an issue with criticisms of the nature of capitalism in our country? It seems as if any sort of questioning of our current system is considered to be anti-conservative or bad by many around here when it is clear our system is far from infallible.

Also, why do people here take issue with complaints from Gen-Z/Millennials about the dramatic difference in today's reality versus years ago?

In 1980, the average home cost $76,000. In 2023, the average home cost $511,000. Has the average income 5x'd in that timeframe? Nope. The cost of education has risen exponentially, so has the cost of rent, and damn near everything else. The average person graduating from college in 2024 is going to have a much harder time purchasing a home than the average person in 1980. Each generation faces unique challenges of plights…I don't get why people on here mock people my age because they are upset they can't afford a home because they all cost half a million dollars.

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Any criticism of "capitalism" is actually a criticism of corporatism and government policy. We don't live in a capitalist society.

We live in a heavily regulated economy with substantial taxation for a large social safety net. Meanwhile, the government has spent the past 40 years spending more money than it steals, causing the currency to be devalued. This causes artificial price increases.

All the issues you pointed out aren't because of capitalism, they are because of the opposite of capitalism.

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Why do people tout some of those things as if they are features of capitalism? Or why do people act like our economy is a pure capitalist economy? Some of the conversation about this topic is very confusing to me.

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Who is touting those things as capitalist victories? Nobody on the right. Maybe people on the left who don't know the first thing about economics think that.

People say we live in a "capitalist" economy because it's technically the closest to being true of the other option which is socialism/communism.

However, when the government is as involved as it is in the economy, it isn't completely capitalist. We live in a world where the evils of government policy rear their head while capitalism takes the blame.

A 100% pure capitalist society would have 0 government involvement in the economy.

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I see. Appreciate your insight.

Whoop Delecto said:

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In 1981, I think the average salary was $21,000

The average salary for a engineer is $96,410 per year in Texas. 1.6k salaries reported, updated at November 25, 2024 indeed.com

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I don't think the average salary in '81 was anywhere near 21K.

Median HOUSEHOLD income in '84 in CURRENT dollars was about $24K. Which means the AVERAGE salary 3 years after you're talking about was probably around $12-14K (if that), taking into account the number of two income households, etc. I know that my mom, as a teacher was not yet making $20K in '81. She finished her career in '91 making a little over $30 and that was with local incentive pay and big raises during the '80s. My dad, a mid-level manager, bumped his salary from the mid-20s to almost 50 around 1982 and he was well above average even though he didn't have a college degree. My former band director told me that when he took the job where I met him -- a junior high director position in 1979 -- he made exactly $12,345! That was as a second year teacher. $5 an hour was a pretty good salary for non-college folks and that was half of what you're talking about annually.

Sure, that's all anecdotal, but its accurate and I think conforms with the sourced data I provided:

https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/MEHOINUSA646N

One of the key features of "crony capitalism" is that it allows fascists to hide their ever increasing central planning authoritarianism behind a facade of actual capitalism up until the time that control is complete and there is no longer a need to pretend.

Ayn Rand was a prophet

Will not click on a Reddit link.

Zachary, for perspective on your numbers I got my first new truck in the mid 80's for $16,000, and it didn't have any of the bells/whistles of current trucks. Dad was amazed because their first home cost the same amount as my truck when they were younger. I had a DVM degree and my first job started at 25K, and I had job offers as low as 18K. It may be that yours isn't the first generation to see inflated costs over time.

Capitalism depends on meritocresy

Sorry for the false start. Capitalism depends on individual merit for success. Socialism depends on government and individual laziness and dependence. The US is presently more than halfway downhill toward socialism and gathering speed. It's hard for young people to value individual work ethic and merit when their parents have taught them the reverse.

Casual Cynic said:

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Reddit kind of shows why people shouldn't get their political opinions from internet memes.

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Are billions of dollars to Ukraine and the world while North Carolinians are living in tents a meme? Is a congressman making $200k a year and retiring a multimillionaire a meme? Is paying 50%+ of your income to taxes a meme? Is inflation a meme? Is the blanket pardon on corruption a meme?

I just finished the 6 lesson online course from Hillsdale College, Marxism, Socialism, and Communism. It was a good listen if you have the time.

In fact, Hillsdale has a ton of free online courses with great content if you are looking for some good resources.

Whoop Delecto said:

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I was referencing starting salaries for engineers in Texas. In 1981 my first job was $24,000 with a company car.

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Baller!

My first Engineering job in Austin in 1994 paid $30k working for the State of Texas.

My house in Round Rock cost $115k in early 1995. I goes for about $350k now.

Marx wrote all his conjectural bull crap because he himself was a grifting mooching loser always bumming off the charity of family and friends and he needed to rationalize his own personal envy and resentment. Billions of people suffer to this day as word spread showing how to rationalize failure, blame others, and loot the property of the industrious and successful while claiming it is virtuous.

techno-ag said:

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In my day, we didn't complain about other people having money. We just went to work.

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This.

In fact, we saw what others had that we didn't and we busted our asses off, be it in school or at a blue collar job, and earned our way to having those things.

The world has no use for whiners, much less ones raised by Boomers and Millennials.

Libs REALLY seem to hate rich people. Like, it's beyond mere jealousy, bordering on programming. Billionaire greed. Corporate greed.

Every time they have a take, it's consistently the wrong one. Like suggesting Starbucks should give half its net profit out as bonuses, just because. Or that the billionaires that have created huge companies like Microsoft or Amazon have mooched off society. Or that consumers and workers are fully responsible for the success of a company without giving credit to the billionaires that have identified and met that demand, creating tens of millions of jobs in the process. The list is never ending.

Jeeper79 said:

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But if they were truly so smart, why are most of them broke?

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because capitalism is a prison that keeps them down, of course.

My first job out of A&M in the mid-'80s paid $220 a week, or roughly $11,400 a year.

I was fortunate that I also got overtime if I worked more than 40 hours a week, but the caveat was that your OT was purely at the discretion of the bosses. So it wasn't something could count on.

The summers were a slow time so my first few months on the job after graduation, I wasn't even working 40 hours a week. I would show up in the morning and get sent home around lunchtime.

I remember my dad telling me, "You need to march in there and tell them you need more hours."

Okay, dad.

Zachary Klement said:

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Street Fighter said:

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The average house back then didn't have 3 bedrooms and 2.5 bathrooms, etc... either. And it isn't your concerns that destroy empathy . it's the incessant whining about it and believing you've been uniquely targeted to suffer.

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There's some give and take there, I suppose. Homes are certainly built with more bells and whistles, but the rise in price does not directly correlate with homes being 5x nicer or bigger or whatever.

And that's true, there are a lot of people that whine too much.

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has anyone thought that when there is a capitalist system based on supply and demand...

that welcoming in TWELVE MILLION ILLEGAL ALIENS to increase the demand when the supply stays the same...

might drive up prices?

along with leftists spending TRILLIONS over the last 12 years to smash the debt, deficit, and drive inflation to decade long highs?

Dr. Horrible said:

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Street Fighter said:

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The average house back then didn't have 3 bedrooms and 2.5 bathrooms, etc... either. And it isn't your concerns that destroy empathy . it's the incessant whining about it and believing you've been uniquely targeted to suffer.

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Exactly. I'm currently sitting in a 1980, 1k sqft, that was originally a 2/1.5, but now a 3/2 after remodeling. They're not building homes like that anymore. The demand isn't there, because no one wants a starter home anymore, everyone wants a nice fancy home, and are willing to rent out of their price range rather than save up for something of lower quality.

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The demand for starter homes is absolutely there.

The cost to build a starter home at starter home prices is not achievable, however.

Zachary Klement said:

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HollywoodBQ said:

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Zachary Klement said:

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A lot of misguided ideas on that sub, but why do conservatives on here take an issue with criticisms of the nature of capitalism in our country? It seems as if any sort of questioning of our current system is considered to be anti-conservative or bad by many around here when it is clear our system is far from infallible.

Also, why do people here take issue with complaints from Gen-Z/Millennials about the dramatic difference in today's reality versus years ago?

In 1980, the average home cost $76,000. In 2023, the average home cost $511,000. Has the average income 5x'd in that timeframe? Nope. The cost of education has risen exponentially, so has the cost of rent, and damn near everything else. The average person graduating from college in 2024 is going to have a much harder time purchasing a home than the average person in 1980. Each generation faces unique challenges of plights…I don't get why people on here mock people my age because they are upset they can't afford a home because they all cost half a million dollars.

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What are you talking about home price average being half a million?

In California maybe but even then, there are all kinds of homes in the IE and the Central Valley for far less.

I see new homes in Texas for $200k all day long. Even existing homes for $300k on Galveston Island.

Also, I just got done getting a req approved to hire an entry level employee in the Central time zone. The least amount I can pay is $60k.

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https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/MSPUS I was a bit off…according to this $420k is the price of an average home in the U.S…I live in Dallas and stuff over here here is shooting up in price so may have mixed that up mentally.

Up here, it's difficult to get much more than a condo for $200k.

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I just went to COSM in Frisco last weekend to watch the Ags disappoint again. On the way up from Waco to pickup my friend in Fort Worth, I saw quite a few new developments that looked affordable.

A quick internet search shows that you can get a starter home in the Dallas area for $250k.
https://www.kbhome.com/new-homes-dallas-fort-worth/heartland

Considering the fact that teachers are getting $61k in Dallas ISD, a $250k house sounds really affordable.
https://staff.dallasisd.org/2023/09/29/budget-includes-raises/

Now would I want to live in Heartland, TX? No.

But it is certainly attainable by recent college grads.
No different than my wife and I moving to Round Rock less than 2 years out of A&M.

mannerheim77 said:

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Zachary Klement said:

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A lot of misguided ideas on that sub, but why do conservatives on here take an issue with criticisms of the nature of capitalism in our country? It seems as if any sort of questioning of our current system is considered to be anti-conservative or bad by many around here when it is clear our system is far from infallible.

Also, why do people here take issue with complaints from Gen-Z/Millennials about the dramatic difference in today's reality versus years ago?

In 1980, the average home cost $76,000. In 2023, the average home cost $511,000. Has the average income 5x'd in that timeframe? Nope. The cost of education has risen exponentially, so has the cost of rent, and damn near everything else. The average person graduating from college in 2024 is going to have a much harder time purchasing a home than the average person in 1980. Each generation faces unique challenges of plights…I don't get why people on here mock people my age because they are upset they can't afford a home because they all cost half a million dollars.

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Look, we get it. No one can deny these statistics, it's definitely not as easy getting into a home or paying for college nowadays. I know it's tough. But what pisses us off is the constant whining and blaming of "boomers" for their financial plight. The entitlement mentality is over-the-top nauseating. Even going so far to suggest higher taxes or more socialism so they can get their "fair share" of what's "owed" to them.

Nobody owes you anything. Not even an apology. Life is not fair. And no matter where you're at in life, billions of people would gladly trade places with you.

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Sure. Now say the same thing about everyone on this thread *****ing / preaching to them. It's all hypocrisy. It's the fundamental problem with society today whether politics, economics, or ethics and morals. There's only 2 extremes and anyone in the middle is labeled as the other extreme by whoever is ranting. So the situation only gets worse.

I'm the generation that pretty much in the middle of the boomers who have no understanding of the world today and the young dreamers who can't find a way to get there.

Taxes are outrageous and the only reason boomers aren't marching on capitals with pitchforks and torches is they are grandfathered in because they can't afford it. Yet they talk down to everyone else who also can't afford it. The expected home cost of a yearly budget used to be 1/3 of a yearly salary. Now it multiples higher.

I'm a capitalist conservative. That doesn't change the reality of the situation no matter how often people who benefited more from the year they were born than from the reality around them say the same cliches over and over.

My wife and I both have multiple degrees including 2 from A&M. We work hard, we exemplify just about everything the posters on here parrot as the way. That doesn't change that our economy is in the trash despite what the government espouses. It's damn near impossible to find a new job unless you luck into a close connection who's actually the hiring manager. And costs / taxes have far outstripped compensation. We do well for ourselves, but the last 5 years has been a financial disaster for the majority of the country.

Neither of our compensation has gone up since Covid because business isn't great across the board, but costs have far outstripped what our budget was before Covid. We can no longer afford to put into retirement because we've gone from a respectable household budget to being paycheck to paycheck in that time. 2 kids that have gotten older during that time have also drastically gotten more expensive to do basic kids things.

I'm aware 90% of the posters on this thread like the rest of this sub have no intention of actual discussion or acknowledging issues, but this country is ultimately heading to a cliff. And it doesn't matter which polarising end of the political spectrum you are on. There isn't a solution in sight and what no one here seems to understand is putting your head in the sand and telling others it their fault (when often it's not) is only making things worse (or at least pushing everyone you are talking with to discount anything you say).

As much as it scares me to admit, it appears more and more that this country is heading for it's own version of the French revolution. There's the young have nots who are tired of doing everything they are supposed to see no gain and the haves who are doing nothing other than talking down to them about what worked decades ago. And everyone else in the middle that are no better off.

Wake up!

If you are a capitalist conservative then you know that these issues were caused by government policies, not free markets and laissez faire capitalism.

Sure it's ridiculous for boomers to look down on people complaining when it was the boomers who were fine with using the government to grow rich while either knowing or being too stupid to realize it would cause issues for their future generations.

Street Fighter said:

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The average house back then didn't have 3 bedrooms and 2.5 bathrooms, etc... either. And it isn't your concerns that destroy empathy . it's the incessant whining about it and believing you've been uniquely targeted to suffer.

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Truth.
My 1st home needed a lot of renovations(re: sheet rock, roof, electrical, plumbing, kitchen , etc.). Was only ~1700 sq. ft. in Oak Cliff. Cost ~ $35,000 with mortgage payment $308/month. My salary was ~$35,000/year.
People's expectations for a first home and the neighborhood have risen beyond expectations I had in the 70s.

Maybe one of the problems is that these people are completely incapable of putting themselves in the shoes of corporate leadership. It's not a company's job to employ people. It's not even a company's job to pay them well. But a healthy labor market will ensure that people are paid what they're worth.

The argument that everyone should earn a living wage is actually BS. People should earn what they're worth. It's not a company's responsibility to pay someone more than what they're worth.

If you work somewhere and don't feel like you're making enough, go work somewhere else. If NOBODY is willing to pay you what you think you're worth then you need to have long hard look in the mirror and, if necessary, go do something to improve it.

shack009 said:

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If you are a capitalist conservative then you know that these issues were caused by government policies, not free markets and laissez faire capitalism.

Sure it's ridiculous for boomers to look down on people complaining when it was the boomers who were fine with using the government to grow rich while either knowing or being too stupid to realize it would cause issues for their future generations.

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And the far right is no different. In a month since an election all we've heard is retribution and pushing through appointments that will enact it. Absolute nothing that's going to change anything or offers solutions to issues that go beyond political talking points. The only economic policies we've heard is tax breaks that haven't worked since the Reagan administration.

Jeeper79 said:

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Maybe one of the problems is that these people are completely incapable of putting themselves in the shoes of corporate leadership. It's not a company's job to employ people. It's not even a company's job to pay them well. But a healthy labor market will ensure that people are paid what they're worth.

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While not their "job", as we're seeing in the car market, when people don't have jobs that pay decently, businesses fail. If Noone has the money to sustain consumption, your business doesn't make money...

Ag_of_08 said:

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Jeeper79 said:

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Maybe one of the problems is that these people are completely incapable of putting themselves in the shoes of corporate leadership. It's not a company's job to employ people. It's not even a company's job to pay them well. But a healthy labor market will ensure that people are paid what they're worth.

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While not their "job", as we're seeing in the car market, when people don't have jobs that pay decently, businesses fail. If Noone has the money to sustain consumption, your business doesn't make money...

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Yes, that is how capitalism works.

Jeeper79 said:

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Maybe one of the problems is that these people are completely incapable of putting themselves in the shoes of corporate leadership. It's not a company's job to employ people. It's not even a company's job to pay them well. But a healthy labor market will ensure that people are paid what they're worth.

The argument that everyone should earn a living wage is actually BS. People should earn what they're worth. It's not a company's responsibility to pay someone more than what they're worth.

If you work somewhere and don't feel like you're making enough, go work somewhere else. If NOBODY is willing to pay you what you think you're worth then you need to have long hard look in the mirror and, if necessary, go do something to improve it.

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This exact post is a perfect example. It's nothing except old cliches.

I've been looking for a new job for over a year. I've applied to hundreds. I've beyond networked and had a dozen great conversations that ultimately went nowhere. The most common response is we would like to hire you, but there's too much uncertainty. Or the budget wasn't improved.

70% of the country is in the same boat open to wanting a new job, but seeing little way to get one. This isn't 1980 where you could apply to a posting in the paper and get an interview. I haven't received a single positive response from a single cold application during that time. I've networked with managers and even exec level at many of the companies I targeted and applied. None have any ability to push me because most can't even find out who the hiring manager is. HR control over the hiring process has drastically changed job searching.

CDUB98 said:

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Ag_of_08 said:

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Jeeper79 said:

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Maybe one of the problems is that these people are completely incapable of putting themselves in the shoes of corporate leadership. It's not a company's job to employ people. It's not even a company's job to pay them well. But a healthy labor market will ensure that people are paid what they're worth.

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While not their "job", as we're seeing in the car market, when people don't have jobs that pay decently, businesses fail. If Noone has the money to sustain consumption, your business doesn't make money...

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Yes, that is how capitalism works.

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Except it doesn't because the government cooks the treasury or bails out failing industries (banks, mortgage companies, car manufactures, etc., etc.) and nothing every resets. We're a country that in the last 20 years has ensured only businesses can't fail while citizens fall further behind at their expense.

That's not capitalism. It's actually reverse socialism.

Exactly.

Banks are too big to fail. The car industry is too big to fail. Big business is being propped up, fed by the government taxpayer.

Corporate Socialism. Not Capitalism.

AgLA06 said:

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shack009 said:

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If you are a capitalist conservative then you know that these issues were caused by government policies, not free markets and laissez faire capitalism.

Sure it's ridiculous for boomers to look down on people complaining when it was the boomers who were fine with using the government to grow rich while either knowing or being too stupid to realize it would cause issues for their future generations.

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And the far right is no different. In a month since an election all we've heard is retribution and pushing through appointments that will enact it. Absolute nothing that's going to change anything or offers solutions to issues that go beyond political talking points. The only economic policies we've heard is tax breaks that haven't worked since the Reagan administration.

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Oh you were lying when you said you were a capitalist haha.

Many of us older folks understand exactly what the situation is for young adults today. How?....we have adult children going through exactly the challenges we faced and have a strong basis of comparison that those that have NOT been through and witnessed both era's cannot understand.

It can be a bit hard to do an apples/apples comparison because houses and cars have so many more features todays than they did 40 years ago. But in any event, I have a son and DIL that work their butts off...far more than 40 hours per week, both with meaningful degrees (engineering and business). They have done things the right way. How is that:

- they worked their butts off at university and during the summers to be in the best position they could be for achieving what they wanted once they graduated.
- they live in an affordable, older home that while nicer than my first home, is still a home that many of their peers would refuse to purchase or live in.
- they control their spending and don't feel like they have to buy the latest greatest and have what their parents' had when they left the nest. They don't eat out much.

So yes, we understand the current situation despite your protests otherwise....I'm just of the opinion that you don't have any real appreciation of the fact that it's always required a real effort to work hard, save and be thrifty during the early years of your life to achieve the financial goals that you see the older generation possess.

And in fairness.....WE COMPLAINED. We complained that our first house cost $113,000 when my parent's first house cost $13,000. We complained our first interest rate was 12% when our parents' interest rates were 6%. We complained about inflation where we were paying $1.25 for gas and our parents had paid 15 cents. We complained that a crappy car cost $4,500 when our parents had paid $150. We complained that it cost $1,000 to have a kid when our own hospital birth bills were $50. We had two cars when our parents only had the one. WE COMPLAINED....but we didn't just complain, we worked the hours, spent little, and didn't look to others to achieve our dreams for us.

We know the situation today........we have adult children living it......it's much easier today in some ways and it is harder in some ways. But really, it's about the same.

ETA: And when we complained, our parent's laughed and told us about living through the Great Depression. We gulped when they told us...and went to work.

My home was built in 1967. It doesn't look anything like I would like to renovate it to because I can't afford to do so.
Both our vehicles are paid off. My paid off truck was the only new vehicle I've ever owned.

We live in the same neighborhood as my parents. My mortgage is 5x theirs and I only bought 15 years after they did. My taxes represent that property increase. They are constantly asking us why we don't go on vacations or why we don't buy the kids more fun stuff. The answer is we don't have the money to do so. And they have no ability to see why.

The irony is the only reason they have disposable income is they started collecting SS on top of working. They would be broke otherwise as well. So they say the same tired cliches while taking government socialized checks and subsidized insurance that are the only difference in our situation.

shack009 said:

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AgLA06 said:

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shack009 said:

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If you are a capitalist conservative then you know that these issues were caused by government policies, not free markets and laissez faire capitalism.

Sure it's ridiculous for boomers to look down on people complaining when it was the boomers who were fine with using the government to grow rich while either knowing or being too stupid to realize it would cause issues for their future generations.

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And the far right is no different. In a month since an election all we've heard is retribution and pushing through appointments that will enact it. Absolute nothing that's going to change anything or offers solutions to issues that go beyond political talking points. The only economic policies we've heard is tax breaks that haven't worked since the Reagan administration.

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Oh you were lying when you said you were a capitalist haha.

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Nope. I have a 20+ year voting record that says otherwise.

I'm just a 40 something year old that realizes it doesn't matter which party is in charge. It hasn't changed my situation and won't until people start questioning the BS we're fed. MAGA doesn't give a damn any different than the left wing. They aren't going to divert any foreign spending to the citizens of this country. Just to their own grifters and friends. New regime, same issues.

This quote is on the UH CEO thread and it couldn't' be more true. Conservatives and Liberals alike are justifying the hit because it was an evil insurance company. The the majority of the country realizes it doesn't matter which industry it was, it represents many of the same issues justified on this thread. Just look at the post above that espouses the public just doesn't get the plight of the corporate executive making 20x-50x the average salary of their employee who can't pay their bills.

"Yep, I don't think anyone is ready for the consequences of the social contract between elites and average citizens is breaking. Previously elites held loyalty to the regular people and were Patriotic/loyalists. Now these people hold loyalty only to themselves and exist to fleece the general public for additional power, control, and money. The average person knows this too so the only thing holding it together is that the average person continues to increase their own wealth and improve their own lives. The instant the average person encounters hardship and life gets worse for them that social contract will begin to fray. Covid absolutely blew the doors off of this contract and many have never recovered from it so the anger is building.

At some point people will begin targeting elites who control those systems that wronged them and the average person will likely cheer it on.

The difference now in comparison to say the French Revolution or Russian Revolution is that there is no counter elite to paint the targets. It's ground up grassroots anger because the elites can't control the flow of information anymore. The future could easily devolve into one of complete chaos if the elites don't stop pressing the average people."

The insane thing is when this break down happens, I'll be facing the same guillotine even though I see and espouse the same issues and struggle to pay my bills. It's maddening.