Teslag said:

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"Soft aggression"

But keep accusing everyone of being warmongers while you give Putin, the ultimate warmonger, a complete pass.

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As expected..

BlueTaze said:

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For Teslag and all those who claim NATO expansion is not a concern of Russia. For those who claim Russia wasn't provoked and that no assurances were ever made to them about not expanding NATO. Are all of these sited footnotes "Russian Propaganda"? It's time to stop denying historical facts. Russia is our enemy, but they certainly have legit grievances and we have no business wasting our money on this war.

https://nsarchive.gwu.edu/briefing-book/russia-programs/2017-12-12/nato-expansion-what-gorbachev-heard-western-leaders-early

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It won't budge him one bit.

Funky Winkerbean said:

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Teslag said:

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"Soft aggression"

But keep accusing everyone of being warmongers while you give Putin, the ultimate warmonger, a complete pass.

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As expected..

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Keep goaltending for Putin. He literally appreciates your effort.

BlueTaze said:

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For Teslag and all those who claim NATO expansion is not a concern of Russia. For those who claim Russia wasn't provoked and that no assurances were ever made to them about not expanding NATO. Are all of these sited footnotes "Russian Propaganda"? It's time to stop denying historical facts. Russia is our enemy, but they certainly have legit grievances and we have no business wasting our money on this war.

https://nsarchive.gwu.edu/briefing-book/russia-programs/2017-12-12/nato-expansion-what-gorbachev-heard-western-leaders-early

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Those discussions involved the non deployment of NATO into the former eastern Germany. Which we did not do. It never involved NATO expansion into former satellite states.

As even Gorbachev clarified years later…

Quote:

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The interviewer asked why Gorbachev did not "insist that the promises made to you [Gorbachev]particularly U.S. Secretary of State James Baker's promise that NATO would not expand into the Eastbe legally encoded?" Gorbachev replied: "The topic of 'NATO expansion' was not discussed at all, and it wasn't brought up in those years. … Another issue we brought up was discussed: making sure that NATO's military structures would not advance and that additional armed forces would not be deployed on the territory of the then-GDR after German reunification. Baker's statement was made in that context… Everything that could have been and needed to be done to solidify that political obligation was done. And fulfilled."

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Gorbachev himself said we fulfilled those promises, and they only related to the former GDR. Not the Baltic's. Not Romania. Not Hungary. Not anywhere else, including Ukraine.

Facts

Quote:

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Not once, but three times, Baker tried out the "not one inch eastward" formula with Gorbachev in the February 9, 1990, meeting. He agreed with Gorbachev's statement in response to the assurances that "NATO expansion is unacceptable." Baker assured Gorbachev that "neither the President nor I intend to extract any unilateral advantages from the processes that are taking place," and that the Americans understood that "not only for the Soviet Union but for other European countries as well it is important to have guarantees that if the United States keeps its presence in Germany within the framework of NATO, not an inch of NATO's present military jurisdiction will spread in an eastern direction." (See Document 6)

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https://nsarchive.gwu.edu/document/16117-document-06-record-conversation-between

Gorbachev made several comments that were inconsistent in both confirming and refuting the topic of assurances against NATO expansion. So therefore you have to go into the archives for additional sourcing. Its very clear the West understood Russia's concern for NATO expansion and made efforts to address it in past. Putin is our enemy, but he is historically accurate in his representation of NATO engagements in past.

HarryJ33tamu said:

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Learn some history.

Interesting pic.twitter.com/61G9RKibAY

— Elon Musk (@elonmusk) November 12, 2024

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Absolutely sickening. I pray Trump is able to kick out every last neocon from the state dept and pentagon. These people should never again have any influence on foreign policy. Total **** show.

BlueTaze said:

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Quote:

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Not once, but three times, Baker tried out the "not one inch eastward" formula with Gorbachev in the February 9, 1990, meeting. He agreed with Gorbachev's statement in response to the assurances that "NATO expansion is unacceptable." Baker assured Gorbachev that "neither the President nor I intend to extract any unilateral advantages from the processes that are taking place," and that the Americans understood that "not only for the Soviet Union but for other European countries as well it is important to have guarantees that if the United States keeps its presence in Germany within the framework of NATO, not an inch of NATO's present military jurisdiction will spread in an eastern direction." (See Document 6)

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https://nsarchive.gwu.edu/document/16117-document-06-record-conversation-between

Gorbachev made several comments that were inconsistent in both confirming and refuting the topic of assurances against NATO expansion. So therefore you have to go into the archives for additional sourcing. Its very clear the West understood Russia's concern for NATO expansion and made efforts to address it in past. Putin is our enemy, but he is historically accurate in his representation of NATO engagements in past.

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And the hand wave…

JB99 said:

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HarryJ33tamu said:

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Learn some history.

Interesting pic.twitter.com/61G9RKibAY

— Elon Musk (@elonmusk) November 12, 2024

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Absolutely sickening. I pray Trump is able to kick out every last neocon from the state dept and pentagon. These people should never again have any influence on foreign policy. Total **** show.

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What is false about that video? Whatever else about the man, right up to about 3.5 minute mark, he is just laying out many things that happened. He could have even thrown in how we played a role in 2013 onward enabling ISIS (some say created) to take down Assad in Syria. Kerry and company as late as 2016 was fine with the expansion of the Islamist threat in return for taking down Assad. Did like how 2002 and some of the lost chances after 9/11 were mentioned. Those were seen real-time as they occurred.