titan said:

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Joes said:

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titan said:

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Teslag said:

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Stat Monitor Repairman said:

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A defensive pact that started a war.

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This war started because Putin invaded a country for the purpose of a pure land grab.

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Not entirely. Western meddling pre 2014 played a role. That keeps getting forgotten. If someone messes around with Mexico, we might invade too. Its more complicated than that.

One thing fairly sure of -- the Biden admin never wanted peace.

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This is true. No one grew up hating the Soviet Union more than me and I'm extremely aware of all of Russia's historical characteristics and negative attributes. History is a passion of mine and I've even toured Russia. And in spite of that, by any objective measure, the west absolutely did everything to provoke and inflame this whole thing and has continued to do so. You know those last scenes in Patton where he is just raving about how bad Russia is and said we beat the wrong people? That might as well be me over my life and even I can see the degree to which we've gone out of our way to instigate this. It's so painfully obvious. And it's bi-partisan for the most part.

And what's really galling is that the left in particular which always mocked and dismissed any mention of communist threat during the Cold War and was usually flat-out an apologist for the USSR when it was a true worldwide threat now acts far to the right of Reagan when dealing with modern Russia. It's bizarre.

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Joes,

This is so true. Grew up the same way, and have watched and at times part of the very real change and opportunities that presented. The italics I agree with and it seems mostly done initially for dominance establishing with a mix of war profiteering. When Obama came in, it seems to have also become about money laundering and other such graft. (Less sure W was doing that kind of thing)

But where this most manifests goes back to the first, to make it clear--- no real desire to use power to promote peace or deterrence. Notice how casually the DC-MSM Party discarded Trump's Mideast achievemnt and reinflamed things. Similarly, we haven't used our leverage to prevent things over there in Europe --- just to gain from it.

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Nothing shows it more than what just happened. Biden doesn't even have a clue where he is and just wants his ice cream and yet "we" (meaning the state department and White House staff and national security people and whoever else is actually the president these days), with only a couple months until Trump is sworn in who has repeatedly stated he wants to wind it down quickly, decided to try to ramp this up beyond what's repairable. They're pouting and throwing a bomb as they're leaving.

Russia did warn:

🇷🇺🇺🇸 Pentagon confirms US was warned about Hazel test by Russia via nuclear security channels shortly before the launch.

Peskov also said that they warned the US shortly before, hence Europe and the rest of the world had no idea. pic.twitter.com/z3wdf1ZHO6

— Lord Bebo (@MyLordBebo) November 21, 2024

Exactly. This isn't some kind of pre WW II re living like press likes to do. We are absolutely not acting as a force for peace and de-escalation. In fact, the Bidenites are acting to try to ruin it on the way out.

aggiehawg said:

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Teslag said:

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Russia threatening former Soviet satellites? Must be a Thursday.

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NATO members. Article Five.

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I know. This isn't the first time they've threatened NATO members this in the past 3 years. Hence my comment.

nortex97 said:

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Russia did warn:

🇷🇺🇺🇸 Pentagon confirms US was warned about Hazel test by Russia via nuclear security channels shortly before the launch.

Peskov also said that they warned the US shortly before, hence Europe and the rest of the world had no idea. pic.twitter.com/z3wdf1ZHO6

— Lord Bebo (@MyLordBebo) November 21, 2024

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So it was just empty saber rattling for show as we suspected.

nortex97 said:

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Russia did warn:

🇷🇺🇺🇸 Pentagon confirms US was warned about Hazel test by Russia via nuclear security channels shortly before the launch.

Peskov also said that they warned the US shortly before, hence Europe and the rest of the world had no idea. pic.twitter.com/z3wdf1ZHO6

— Lord Bebo (@MyLordBebo) November 21, 2024

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So is this saying no big deal, we knew. But Europe wasn't told by us and allowed to worry? If that holds true this would be another example of where State causes more conflicts than resolves with their obtuseness. Of course we may learn they knew as well. Too soon to tell.

Who?mikejones! said:

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So, ukrianians must sacrifice their country on the behest of everyone else because of a tyrannical neighbor?

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The interests of Ukraine wanting to join NATO do not outweigh the interests of the billions of people that will be affected by the further escalation of conventional war on three continents?

After 80-years of peace in Europe, Ukraine now the hill to die on?

To what end?

For the past 20+ years the US been on a crusade to 'spread democracy' and where has that got us?

You go back in time to 1991 and tell somebody that in 2024 there would be war on three continents, the US and Russia would be in a proxy war lobbing long range missiles, destroying gas pipelines and sabotaging subsea cables and the threat of a nuclear exchange was a weekly topic of conversation ...

If I went back to 1991 I'd tell Ukraine to never give up their nukes.

On that we agree, but I believe it was 1994 wasn't it?

Yes, even THEN thought it was dumb. I knew you couldn't rely on changing admins. Non-proliferation is actually a bad idea. Taiwan wouldn't be at risk if nuke armed. Iraq and Libya sent similar messages--don't happen if nuke armed.

If I were Ukrainian, I wouldn't give two ****s about everyone else.

If the usa were in a similar position, I'd tell the world to pound sand too. I'm not stopping my defense simpmy so you can sleep better at night.

Sounds like pretty much every decade post ww2, to some degree

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After 80-years of peace in Europe, Ukraine now the hill to die on?

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And this ignores Bosnian war. And Kosovo. The violent Soviet invasion of Czechoslovakia. The Turkish invasion of Cyprus. The Romanian Revolution. The wars in Chechnya. And many minor skirmishes in Europe.

Teslag said:

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If I went back to 1991 I'd tell Ukraine to never give up their nukes.

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I'd be more than fine with that. And I'm all for Ukraine defending itself all it wants to on its own or with help other than from us. I have no love for Russia.

But what I don't get is how much the cheerleaders continuously mock Russia's military for performing so pathetically and at the same time insisting that the entire western world needs to send hundreds of billions of dollars to keep Russia from trying to take over the world Hitler-style. Which is it? "They're a laughable paper tiger but yet they're about to overrun Europe if we don't "stack Russian bodies!!!!!" Pick one. It can't be both.

Teslag said:

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the person that laps up Russian propaganda and talking points to demonize their own country while completely laying no blame at all at Russia's feet.

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Nobody on here is influenced by Russian propaganda. If they were they would get called out immediately. What you got here is a bunch of people looking at this situation, applying what the've learned and seen play out over the course of their life and reading a conclusion.

The idea that people on here are somehow influenced by anything Russia has to say about any of this is a bridge too far.

You got a bunch of people looking at the same general facts and reaching a different conclusion.So It's disingenuous to think people are somehow coopted by Russian propaganda and thats the reason people got a different opinion.

This Russian propaganda boogeyman got to go.

It's more of an effort to show Russia that they cannot and will not be allowed to project violent expansion westward. We won't allow it.

Who?mikejones! said:

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If I were Ukrainian, I wouldn't give two ****s about everyone else.

If the usa were in a similar position, I'd tell the world to pound sand too. I'm not stopping my defense simpmy so you can sleep better at night.

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The problem is, and this is where Teslag has some argument that must not be overlooked -- I believe it is 1994 (not sure) that we got Ukraine to "de-nuke" in return for pledging their security. USSR was abolished Christmas Day 1991 but it took a little while to decide what would go on with the various segments breaking away. That's why saying 1994, but might have been sooner after 1991, that the Ukraine arrangement was made.

Does that arrangement have some weight here? Believe it does. But again, this is why its Biden admin's fault -- from a pretty solid position, none of our leverage and Europe's was used to deter. Instead the message had been sent that everything Trump had strengthened was going to be waved away and weakened again. The Mideast also at once re-inflamed, Iran renewed.

So Ukraine even aside from all the other nonsense of laundered money, corruption, proxy, etc, looks to our security because of a pledge.

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Nobody on here is influenced by Russian propaganda.

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You have people here that literally post Russian state media and state sponsored twitter accounts as justification and source material for "facts". They aren't just influenced by Russian propaganda, they advocate it.

Teslag said:

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Nobody on here is influenced by Russian propaganda.

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You have people here that literally post Russian state media and state sponsored twitter accounts as justification and source material for "facts". They aren't just influenced by Russian propaganda, they advocate it.

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I think you are being unfair. They are posting the other side's pov. Its more honest to just say a nation's pov now is going to be propaganda, but not all of it false. Our media hardly less state propaganda -- for all its posturing. It certainly is proving it now by wanting to stay on the gender-bender, racism, and Team Davos agendas when even the Center Left of America sent mandate to get rid of it all.

Teslag said:

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If I went back to 1991 I'd tell Ukraine to never give up their nukes.

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True but we can't unring that bell now can we?

We traded the risk of some rogue state getting access to and using a nuclear weapon, for the increasing threat of a nuclear exchange with Russia.

We've met ourself coming and going on this.

Traded the family cow for magic beans, now we up **** creek.

Nuclear de-escalation was such an imminent threat that we've now traded it for an even bigger threat.

I hear you and think you make good points.

I was responding to a comment specifically that Ukraine should give up because the rest of the world may be at risk.

I wouldn't expect nor would I agree that Ukraine has such obligation just as I would do the same if it were the usa in their position

titan said:

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Teslag said:

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Nobody on here is influenced by Russian propaganda.

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You have people here that literally post Russian state media and state sponsored twitter accounts as justification and source material for "facts". They aren't just influenced by Russian propaganda, they advocate it.

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I think you are being unfair. They are posting the other side's pov. Its more honest to just say a nation's pov now is going to be propaganda, but not all of it false. Our media hardly less state propaganda -- for all its posturing. It certainly is proving it now by wanting to stay on the gender-bender, racism, and Team Davos agendas when even the Center Left of America sent mandate to get rid of it all.

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There is a distinct difference in our media being democrat shills like CNN and MSNBC and literal state media like RT and Tass. It's not even in the same stratosphere. These are actual Russian government agencies.

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So is this saying no big deal, we knew. But Europe wasn't told by us and allowed to worry? If that holds true this would be another example of where State causes more conflicts than resolves with their obtuseness. Of course we may learn they knew as well. Too soon to tell.

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I think we have a treaty (START, though we pulled out of it somewhat in 2023) to notify of IRBM/ICBM launches, is all. It doesn't diminish the meaning/symbolism but rather is an indicia Russia abided by that treaty in this instance. A hopeful safeguard against a sudden conflagration, at best. Another factor looking ahead is that the Ukrainians have disabled some of Russia's OTH (over the horizon) ballistic missile radars, again the Russians probably want to make sure we notify them in kind as well of any unfriendly launches, and are a bit 'hair trigger' happy as a result of this attack (though I think the radars hit basically look toward Iran/not Ukraine).

It's a big deal to launch a missile such as this, designed to only carry a nuclear payload, into a country/state one is at war with. This also verified their 'hey we are sending this' communication and operational capability to execute swiftly per their oplan (a bunch of steps in targeting/approving/communicating/launching essentially, all the way thru impact with inert loads).

Very likely, as an IRBM, this (or a few such launches even) would deliver the sort of tactical nukes that could quickly eviscerate many key Ukrainian defensive positions/bases, and enable rapid advances within 24-48 hours (and even with the notice the Patriots etc. offer no defense to this type of re-entry vehicle). But I'll let our experts rebut that with indignity for a few dozen posts.

Teslag said:

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It's more of an effort to show Russia that they cannot and will not be allowed to project violent expansion westward. We won't allow it.

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Ok great, I'm on board, I'm confident that Great Britain, Germany, France, Italy, Poland, Denmark, Spain, Greece, Norway, Hungary, Romania, and all the rest combined should have no problem taking care of the weakling Russia. I wish them all the best in their neighborhood. We shouldn't have gotten involved in WW1 in the first place and now we've had to babysit another continent for a century. I'm done with it.

Teslag said:

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Nobody on here is influenced by Russian propaganda.

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You have people here that literally post Russian state media and state sponsored twitter accounts as justification and source material for "facts". They aren't just influenced by Russian propaganda, they advocate it.

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Legacy media in the US is also state sponsored media.

We looking at two sides of the same coin.

So it's up to the individual to have the presence of mind to sift through the garbage and somehow arrive at what we think to be the truth.

Teslag said:

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titan said:

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Teslag said:

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Nobody on here is influenced by Russian propaganda.

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You have people here that literally post Russian state media and state sponsored twitter accounts as justification and source material for "facts". They aren't just influenced by Russian propaganda, they advocate it.

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I think you are being unfair. They are posting the other side's pov. Its more honest to just say a nation's pov now is going to be propaganda, but not all of it false. Our media hardly less state propaganda -- for all its posturing. It certainly is proving it now by wanting to stay on the gender-bender, racism, and Team Davos agendas when even the Center Left of America sent mandate to get rid of it all.

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There is a distinct difference in our media being democrat shills like CNN and MSNBC and literal state media like RT and Tass. It's not even in the same stratosphere. These are actual Russian government agencies.

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True, but it doesn't make them always false. Like anything else, their statements can be checked for insight. France and Russia both gave more truthful accounts of what was going on in Syria under Obama, and the abortion we were letting unfold there.

Have to disagree that our shills are not so wedded now that they can be distinguished from ruling class pov.

Stat Monitor Repairman said:

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Teslag said:

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Nobody on here is influenced by Russian propaganda.

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You have people here that literally post Russian state media and state sponsored twitter accounts as justification and source material for "facts". They aren't just influenced by Russian propaganda, they advocate it.

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Legacy media in the US is also state sponsored media.

We looking at two sides of the same coin.

So it's up to the individual to have the presence of mind to sift through the garbage and somehow arrive at what we think to be the truth.

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This is a ridiculous take. Those are not US government agencies.

Teslag said:

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titan said:

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Teslag said:

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Nobody on here is influenced by Russian propaganda.

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You have people here that literally post Russian state media and state sponsored twitter accounts as justification and source material for "facts". They aren't just influenced by Russian propaganda, they advocate it.

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I think you are being unfair. They are posting the other side's pov. Its more honest to just say a nation's pov now is going to be propaganda, but not all of it false. Our media hardly less state propaganda -- for all its posturing. It certainly is proving it now by wanting to stay on the gender-bender, racism, and Team Davos agendas when even the Center Left of America sent mandate to get rid of it all.

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There is a distinct difference in our media being democrat shills like CNN and MSNBC and literal state media like RT and Tass. It's not even in the same stratosphere. These are actual Russian government agencies.

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All of this still exists.This didn't just get packed up and shipped off to storage at the end of the Cold War.

The entirety of Covid was this, but dialed up to 11.

Covid was us spending $8 trillion dollars to propagandize ourselves to do something that ultimately was against our own interests.

This Ukraine is the same deal. Half of America went from not knowing Ukraine on a map to Ukraine flag in their profile overnight.

"alleged"


And even if true it still doesn't equate ABC, NBC, and CNN to literal US Government Agencies.

Put it this way, when Trump takes office will ABC, CNN, MSNBC, etc all start parroting his positions and supporting him? Will he literally fill their management and direction with his choices?

Because that's how Tass and RT are run in Russia in regards to Putin and every government official before him.