J. Walter Weatherman said:

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BenFiasco14 said:

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Stat Monitor Repairman said:

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Two-weeks and two congressional hearings later we still arguing about this ladder.

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Two weeks after the biggest event in recent memory and we've learned virtually NOTHING about how this was allowed to happen. The biggest peep we've gotten out of federal law enforcement was an inquiry into whether Trump was struck with a bullet or shrapnel. We still have no idea who this mysterious "man in the gray suit" is, who supposedly works for the ATF - another organization that's been silent for two weeks now.

We will not get answers from our government. God bless the citizen journalists out there trying to get to the bottom of it.

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Sorry, anyone who thinks we "haven't learned anything" is just choosing not to pay attention to the details that have come out. People just keep saying we don't know things (like did he use a ladder) when information about items like that has already been confirmed.

We also have a basic overview of what happened and more info is getting verified and coming out every day. There are a ton of links in this thread alone and the detailed overview and timeline from Sen. Johnson and testimony from the police chief in particular has been helpful in determining the timeline.

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I said about how this was allowed to happen.

J. Walter Weatherman said:

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BenFiasco14 said:

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Stat Monitor Repairman said:

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Two-weeks and two congressional hearings later we still arguing about this ladder.

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Two weeks after the biggest event in recent memory and we've learned virtually NOTHING about how this was allowed to happen. The biggest peep we've gotten out of federal law enforcement was an inquiry into whether Trump was struck with a bullet or shrapnel. We still have no idea who this mysterious "man in the gray suit" is, who supposedly works for the ATF - another organization that's been silent for two weeks now.

We will not get answers from our government. God bless the citizen journalists out there trying to get to the bottom of it.

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Sorry, anyone who thinks we "haven't learned anything" is just choosing not to pay attention to the details that have come out. People just keep saying we don't know things (like did he use a ladder) when information about items like that has already been confirmed.

We also have a basic overview of what happened and more info is getting verified and coming out every day. There are a ton of links in this thread alone and the detailed overview and timeline from Sen. Johnson and testimony from the police chief in particular has been helpful in determining the timeline.

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I think you missed the point of why it was allowed to happen.

Don't know, but it seems that we, as a nation given the Patriot Act and primo technology, are no closer to being pro-active when it comes to identifying criminal/terrorist acts by our own citizens.

BenFiasco14 said:

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J. Walter Weatherman said:

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BenFiasco14 said:

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Stat Monitor Repairman said:

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Two-weeks and two congressional hearings later we still arguing about this ladder.

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Two weeks after the biggest event in recent memory and we've learned virtually NOTHING about how this was allowed to happen. The biggest peep we've gotten out of federal law enforcement was an inquiry into whether Trump was struck with a bullet or shrapnel. We still have no idea who this mysterious "man in the gray suit" is, who supposedly works for the ATF - another organization that's been silent for two weeks now.

We will not get answers from our government. God bless the citizen journalists out there trying to get to the bottom of it.

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Sorry, anyone who thinks we "haven't learned anything" is just choosing not to pay attention to the details that have come out. People just keep saying we don't know things (like did he use a ladder) when information about items like that has already been confirmed.

We also have a basic overview of what happened and more info is getting verified and coming out every day. There are a ton of links in this thread alone and the detailed overview and timeline from Sen. Johnson and testimony from the police chief in particular has been helpful in determining the timeline.

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I said about how this was allowed to happen.

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No question it was a major failure and assuming more will come out with the secret service investigation but my understanding of the cliff's notes of the failure currently, based on what has been released or testified to so far is:

1. Secret Service told the local police to station in that building where they had overwatch over the roof.
2. Shooter was spotted looking suspicious a handful of times during the afternoon, followed by the local police a couple of times but they lost sight of him closer to when Trump went on stage.
3. No one saw a weapon on him which is why he wasn't detained immediately. It seems like just seeing a "suspicious person" isn't enough to cancel or postpone the event, but it likely will be now.
4. Shooter made his way onto the roof via an AC duct.
5. When local police were trying to find him, the two snipers in the building left to go help - this seems like the primary failure as they apparently would have seen him.
6. Once people saw Crooks on the roof, two cops tried to get up there. One made it to where he saw Crooks with a weapon but fell off the roof. Crooks started firing a few seconds after that, according to the police chief, so any reports of him with a weapon wouldn't have made it in time to get Trump off the stage.

More to be released for sure, but we do have a lot of information about what caused the failure in security.

whatthehey78 said:

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Don't know, but it seems that we, as a nation given the Patriot Act and primo technology, are no closer to being pro-active when it comes to identifying criminal/terrorist acts by our own citizens.

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I think that is an incorrect assessment at this point. When both Cheatle and Wray are using the, "I could tell you but then I'd have to kill you," approach in Congressional hearings? They know far more. They are in CYA mode.

The bloody dead photo of the guy on the roof has a darker colored tshirt and an odd ear repair.

Assuming I can't post that photo here

Can be seen here

https://www.tigerdroppings.com/rant/politics/dead-shooters-picture/114176128/

And that is the only photo that has not been fuzzed out we have been able to see, thus far. And there are still many questions even about that photo. Doesn't look like a Winchester 300 mag hit, if it hit him mid temple.

From the angles we have been shown, and in that photo not a face shot.

If it were possible...he would probably want a "do over".

whatthehey78 said:

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Don't know, but it seems that we, as a nation given the Patriot Act and primo technology, are no closer to being pro-active when it comes to identifying criminal/terrorist acts by our own citizens.

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All they have found out seems to be that "white conservatives "maga" males are the greatest domestic terror threat we face". What great use of our tax dollars.

So, I went out and shot my .556 with a red dot today.

Hitting a target 8 inches in diameter from 80 yards away isn't easy.

Same target from 135 yard with no magnification would be extraordinarily difficult. It's basically luck…

I am still bewildered that this 20 year old kid, who has shot far less than me, was able to squeeze off a kill shot on his FIRST shot. Hitting center mass would be impressive, but hitting someone in the head on your first shot is….unbelievable.

You're simply not that accurate from that distance with a red dot.

AgPrognosticator said:

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So, I went out and shot my .556 with a red dot today.

Hitting a target 8 inches in diameter from 80 yards away isn't easy.

Same target from 135 yard with no magnification would be extraordinarily difficult. It's basically luck…

I am still bewildered that this 20 year old kid, who has shot far less than me, was able to squeeze off a kill shot on his FIRST shot. Hitting center mass would be impressive, but hitting someone in the head on your first shot is….unbelievable.

You're simply not that accurate from that distance with a red dot.

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We do similar shots in 3Gun comp regularly.

Its not a difficult shot for a lot of guys.

And as I posted earlier, Aaron Hayes of Hayes Customs can go on the clock from a standing position, to prone, and hit a 24"x36" plate with nothing more than a dot at 600 yards, in just a few seconds. Now he is a pro, but the shot in question is also a lot easier.

And if you doubt that. Not apples to apples, I know. But here is me shooting a 12" circle at 80 yards with iron sights on a pistol

https://www.instagram.com/reel/CcqBoT_lbWQ/?utm_source=ig_web_copy_link&igsh=MzRlODBiNWFlZA==

Madman said:

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The bloody dead photo of the guy on the roof has a darker colored tshirt and an odd ear repair.

Assuming I can't post that photo here

Can be seen here

https://www.tigerdroppings.com/rant/politics/dead-shooters-picture/114176128/

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Don't be surprised when they deny this is a picture of the roof shooter, but instead is a photo of Yearick dead on a Ukraine battlefield. Its just internet misinformation.

AgPrognosticator said:

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You're simply not that accurate from that distance with a red dot.

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Your words.

AgPrognosticator said:

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So, I went out and shot my .556 with a red dot today.

Hitting a target 8 inches in diameter from 80 yards away isn't easy.

Same target from 135 yard with no magnification would be extraordinarily difficult. It's basically luck…

I am still bewildered that this 20 year old kid, who has shot far less than me, was able to squeeze off a kill shot on his FIRST shot. Hitting center mass would be impressive, but hitting someone in the head on your first shot is….unbelievable.

You're simply not that accurate from that distance with a red dot.

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This guy was also crawling on a hot-tin roof in shorts and a t-shirt, no elbow knee protection and shooting from slight incline. Also likely had an elevated heart rate and breathing from climbing a roof, bear crawling on a roof, and also scaring off a cop moments before the shot.

Stat Monitor Repairman said:

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AgPrognosticator said:

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So, I went out and shot my .556 with a red dot today.

Hitting a target 8 inches in diameter from 80 yards away isn't easy.

Same target from 135 yard with no magnification would be extraordinarily difficult. It's basically luck…

I am still bewildered that this 20 year old kid, who has shot far less than me, was able to squeeze off a kill shot on his FIRST shot. Hitting center mass would be impressive, but hitting someone in the head on your first shot is….unbelievable.

You're simply not that accurate from that distance with a red dot.

---

This guy was also crawling on a hot-tin roof in shorts and a t-shirt, no elbow knee protection and shooting from slight incline. Also likely had an elevated heart rate and breathing from climbing a roof, bear crawling on a roof, and also scaring off a cop moments before the shot.

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I guess that's my point. We're all better in batting practice than we are in the game.

135 yard headshot with no magnification is not easy. It's probably difficult to confirm which head you're shooting at, much less hit it.

I imagine sitting a football game and picking out one person 135 yards away. It's a long ways away….

This isn't a deer sitting a feeder that you've glassed 3 times.

AgPrognosticator said:

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Stat Monitor Repairman said:

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AgPrognosticator said:

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So, I went out and shot my .556 with a red dot today.

Hitting a target 8 inches in diameter from 80 yards away isn't easy.

Same target from 135 yard with no magnification would be extraordinarily difficult. It's basically luck…

I am still bewildered that this 20 year old kid, who has shot far less than me, was able to squeeze off a kill shot on his FIRST shot. Hitting center mass would be impressive, but hitting someone in the head on your first shot is….unbelievable.

You're simply not that accurate from that distance with a red dot.

---

This guy was also crawling on a hot-tin roof in shorts and a t-shirt, no elbow knee protection and shooting from slight incline. Also likely had an elevated heart rate and breathing from climbing a roof, bear crawling on a roof, and also scaring off a cop moments before the shot.

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I guess that's my point. We're all better in batting practice than we are in the game.

135 yard headshot with no magnification is not easy. It's probably difficult to confirm which head you're shooting at, much less hit it.

I imagine sitting a football game and picking out one person 135 yards away. It's a long ways away….

This isn't a deer sitting a feeder that you've glassed 3 times.

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I'm confused. What is your point? Crooks was not the shooter that hit Trump?

Agree that it wasn't an easy a shot considering his very first shot was a perfect shot. Kid might have go to the range every week but not practicing a shot under those conditions. Not saying it's not possible but the guy just swished the Dr. Pepper half court challenge half drunk in flip-flops.

It's amazing how much different eyesight can be.

The other night someone asked if I knew the score on one game or another. I looked across the room at the TV with that particular game and said, "4-1, two out, bottom of 6." To which they just said, "You can see that?!"

AgPrognosticator said:

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So, I went out and shot my .556 with a red dot today.

Hitting a target 8 inches in diameter from 80 yards away isn't easy.

Same target from 135 yard with no magnification would be extraordinarily difficult. It's basically luck…

I am still bewildered that this 20 year old kid, who has shot far less than me, was able to squeeze off a kill shot on his FIRST shot. Hitting center mass would be impressive, but hitting someone in the head on your first shot is….unbelievable.

You're simply not that accurate from that distance with a red dot.

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How do you know he wasn't aiming at CENTER MASS?

Yes, had Trump not turned his head it likely would have killed him. The thing we will never know is what the kid was shooting at.

You assume he was going for a head shot. I'd say that 99% of hunters will tell you they missed a shot on a game animal (and the other 1% is probably lying) with a variable power scope. I remember clearly my 1st miss. I was a freshman at A&M, in an elevated blind and shot at a deer approximately 150 yards away. That doe was just standing there eating and I flat out missed. No barbed wire fence or sapling to deflect it. I flat out had buck fever on a freaking doe and missed.

It was a reasonable shot for the gear but the stress is what brings the question mark.

Shooting under stress destroys most peoples performance, a small minority get a bump up.

TexasRebel said:

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It's amazing how much different eyesight can be.

The other night someone asked if I knew the score on one game or another. I looked across the room at the TV with that particular game and said, "4-1, two out, bottom of 6." To which they just said, "You can see that?!"

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You didn't tell them you'd just checked on the game on your ESPN app, did you?

Madman said:

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It was a reasonable shot for the gear but the stress is what brings the question mark.

Shooting under stress destroys most peoples performance, a small minority get a bump up.

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But the trajectories (straight lines) point to Crooks' position and nowhere else. Not the window, not the water tower.

aggiehawg said:

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AgPrognosticator said:

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Stat Monitor Repairman said:

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AgPrognosticator said:

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So, I went out and shot my .556 with a red dot today.

Hitting a target 8 inches in diameter from 80 yards away isn't easy.

Same target from 135 yard with no magnification would be extraordinarily difficult. It's basically luck…

I am still bewildered that this 20 year old kid, who has shot far less than me, was able to squeeze off a kill shot on his FIRST shot. Hitting center mass would be impressive, but hitting someone in the head on your first shot is….unbelievable.

You're simply not that accurate from that distance with a red dot.

---

This guy was also crawling on a hot-tin roof in shorts and a t-shirt, no elbow knee protection and shooting from slight incline. Also likely had an elevated heart rate and breathing from climbing a roof, bear crawling on a roof, and also scaring off a cop moments before the shot.

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I guess that's my point. We're all better in batting practice than we are in the game.

135 yard headshot with no magnification is not easy. It's probably difficult to confirm which head you're shooting at, much less hit it.

I imagine sitting a football game and picking out one person 135 yards away. It's a long ways away….

This isn't a deer sitting a feeder that you've glassed 3 times.

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I'm confused. What is your point? Crooks was not the shooter that hit Trump?

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I'm not saying that. I'm simply stating facts.

It was a extraordinarily difficult shot for an amateur 20 year to make and I'm stunned he was able to land the "kill shot", but for a last second turn of the head. Maybe there's an easier explanation, maybe there's not.

87IE said:

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AgPrognosticator said:

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So, I went out and shot my .556 with a red dot today.

Hitting a target 8 inches in diameter from 80 yards away isn't easy.

Same target from 135 yard with no magnification would be extraordinarily difficult. It's basically luck…

I am still bewildered that this 20 year old kid, who has shot far less than me, was able to squeeze off a kill shot on his FIRST shot. Hitting center mass would be impressive, but hitting someone in the head on your first shot is….unbelievable.

You're simply not that accurate from that distance with a red dot.

---

How do you know he wasn't aiming at CENTER MASS?

Yes, had Trump not turned his head it likely would have killed him. The thing we will never know is what the kid was shooting at.

You assume he was going for a head shot. I'd say that 99% of hunters will tell you they missed a shot on a game animal (and the other 1% is probably lying) with a variable power scope. I remember clearly my 1st miss. I was a freshman at A&M, in an elevated blind and shot at a deer approximately 150 yards away. That doe was just standing there eating and I flat out missed. No barbed wire fence or sapling to deflect it. I flat out had buck fever on a freaking doe and missed.

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This is a great point. He may have flat out missed his target and still grazed his ear.

aggiehawg said:

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Madman said:

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It was a reasonable shot for the gear but the stress is what brings the question mark.

Shooting under stress destroys most peoples performance, a small minority get a bump up.

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But the trajectories (straight lines) point to Crooks' position and nowhere else. Not the window, not the water tower.

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If you have this data, I'd love to see it. I'm not questioning you. I've been hoping to see solid sourcing on the actual shots.

To the contrary, we've still not seen video of Crooks shooting. I figured we would have had that the day of the shooting….

AgPrognosticator said:

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Stat Monitor Repairman said:

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AgPrognosticator said:

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So, I went out and shot my .556 with a red dot today.

Hitting a target 8 inches in diameter from 80 yards away isn't easy.

Same target from 135 yard with no magnification would be extraordinarily difficult. It's basically luck…

I am still bewildered that this 20 year old kid, who has shot far less than me, was able to squeeze off a kill shot on his FIRST shot. Hitting center mass would be impressive, but hitting someone in the head on your first shot is….unbelievable.

You're simply not that accurate from that distance with a red dot.

---

This guy was also crawling on a hot-tin roof in shorts and a t-shirt, no elbow knee protection and shooting from slight incline. Also likely had an elevated heart rate and breathing from climbing a roof, bear crawling on a roof, and also scaring off a cop moments before the shot.

---

I guess that's my point. We're all better in batting practice than we are in the game.

135 yard headshot with no magnification is not easy. It's probably difficult to confirm which head you're shooting at, much less hit it.

I imagine sitting a football game and picking out one person 135 yards away. It's a long ways away….

This isn't a deer sitting a feeder that you've glassed 3 times.

---

Marines (actually I should say recruits) that were civilians weeks prior, potentially with no firearms experience other than a week of training have been expected for decades to put the vast majority of shots in the black on a target representing a man's head and shoulders at 200 yards, including rapid fire. And from a more challenging sitting or kneeling position, not from the prone. And with iron sights back before optics took over. It was not a challenging shot for a competent shooter. A competent shooter should have hit Trump multiple times with that opportunity. Fortunately there was not a competent shooter on the roof that day.

aggiehawg said:

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Great video. Had not seen it. Thanks for posting.

The water tower theory has always seemed silly to me. But like the author of this video, an indoor second shooter made the most sense, IF there was a second shooter. Video does a good job addressing that possibility.

aggiehawg said:

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Great vid and thats where I stand as well. Now I Need to go and watch the referenced interview with former SS sniper.

Quote:

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Now I Need to go and watch the referenced interview with former SS sniper.

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Could you post that so I can watch later? Have several videos lined up to watch this afternoon. TIA.

The failure is anyone ever thinking the federal government was competent to begin with.