So let's say Cohen "did it on his own." Should he not be prosecuted?
Well…you sounded taller on radio.
KatyAggie2000 said:Nope. Now we've exceeded the OJ deliberation time. Lol.FireAg said:
Verdict yet?
He should be prosecuted for perjury and theft.General Jack D. Ripper said:
So let's say Cohen "did it on his own." Should he not be prosecuted?
MERCHAN: We find you guilty, in accordance with the U.S. Constitution and New York Law, of committing Crime A to conceal your commission of Crime B.AustinAg2K said:This is misleading. He did specifically say they have to be unanimous to convict. They don't have to agree on the second crime (which raises to a felony), but they do have to agree that Trump falsified records to cover up a second crime. They also have to agree that there is a second crime. They could all agree that he falsified records, but one could not agree that it was covering up a second crime and that would be a hung jury. The only thing they don't have to agree on is what that second crime is.BadMoonRisin said:
AtticusMatlock said:Well no one got to see the actual instructions other than in media reports, but I don't there's a lesser included here.Casual Cynic said:
So could they find Trump guilty of a misdemeanor? Wouldn't that be the same as an acquittal since the statute of limitations has run?
They are supposed to stop deliberations for the night at 4:30 EST so only about 30 minutes more. Looks like this will go into tomorrow anywayTexas velvet maestro said:
won't this hold over for news cycle tonight and maximum effect tomorrow?
Yes because positive stories about Trump sold much better than negative ones. It was beneficial to his business. He made money off of Trump. Pecker also said he wouldn't touch the Stormy story because porn stars don't sell papers.4stringAg said:
didn't Pecker also testify that he'd run positive stories on Trump for years (before 2016) and squashed negative ones?
aggiehawg said:You may be correct. They dont' trust Cohen but looking for that corroboration that Merchan and Steinglass were talking about.Ellis Wyatt said:Seems to me that they want to consider whether Pecker and Cohen's stories align.Tramp96 said:
So whereas all the pundits and legal eagles have been saying that Michael Cohen is the key to the entire case by the prosecution, it appears to me that the jury is thinking Pecker is?
And I consider that not the best sign for Trump..
4stringAg said:They are supposed to stop deliberations for the night at 4:30 EST so only about 30 minutes more. Looks like this will go into tomorrow anywayTexas velvet maestro said:
won't this hold over for news cycle tonight and maximum effect tomorrow?
aggiehawg said:Don't expect SCOTUS to do anything regarding this case.KatyAggie2000 said:Wow. If that's the case can the SCOTUS not weigh in now and throw this thing out? Seems like there should be a judicial check and balance during a trial vs. after via appeal for this level of misconduct.Martin Cash said:
Just heard that the jury was not allowed to take the court's charge with them into the jury room.
That is absolutely insane. This is truly banana republic level.
Texas velvet maestro said:
won't this hold over for news cycle tonight and maximum effect tomorrow?
Quote:
Shortly after the jury sounded the buzzer for a second time, a court officer handed another sheet to each side.
"We did just receive another note," Judge Juan Merchan says.
"We the jury request to rehear the judge's instructions," the note reads.
Quote:
Defense attorney Todd Blanche whispered and smiled at Donald Trump after they got the note.
Quote:
Judge Juan Merchan is going to bring the jurors into the courtroom to inquire if they want all of the jury instructions heard or a portion of it.
Neither side objected.
Quote:
udge Juan Merchan says "if and when" a time comes for a verdict, he will bring the alternate jurors in and have them sit in the front row.
Quote:
The readback is estimated to take about 30 minutes, according to the court reporter.
Prosecutor Joshua Steinglass says the readback consists of about 30 pages.
Judge Juan Merchan asked if they can disable the WiFi capability on the laptop that the jury has. Prosecutor Susan Hoffinger said they'd look tonight and make sure it's off
Quote:
The jury is entering the courtroom.
Judge Juan Merchan is reading the notes into the record in their presence.
Attorney Todd Blanche was leaning over and whispering to Donald Trump and attorney Emil Bove while they waited.
If I was sitting in the jury, I would read this that Trump had to KNOW that what he was doing was unlawful. Not merely intent to influence an election, but to do so by unlawful means.BMX Bandit said:
its still there:Quote:
The People allege that the other crime the defendant intended to commit, aid, or conceal is a violation of New York Election Law section 17-152.
Section 17-152 of the New York Election Law provides that any two or more persons who conspire to promote or prevent the election of any person to a public office by unlawful means and which conspiracy is acted upon by one or more of the parties thereto, shall be guilty of conspiracy to promote or prevent an election .
Under our law, a person is guilty of such a conspiracy when, with intent that conduct be performed that would promote or prevent the election of a person to public office by unlawful means, he or she agrees with one or more persons to engage in or cause the performance of such conduct.
Knowledge of a conspiracy does not by itself make the defendant a coconspirator. The defendant must intend that conduct be performed that would promote or prevent the election of a person to public office by unlawful means. Intent means conscious objective or purpose. Thus, a person acts with the intent that conduct be performed that would promote or prevent the election of a person to public office by unlawful means when his or her conscious objective or purpose is that such conduct be performed.
Evidence that defendant was present when others agreed to engage in the performance of a crime does not by itself show that he personally agreed to engage in the conspiracy
So it turns out, there is only one predicate crime. the state election law.
it requires "unlawful means" which can be the violation of tax law or federal election law, or something else unlawful.
Quote:
The jury is entering the courtroom.
Judge Juan Merchan is reading the notes into the record in their presence.
After reading both notes from the jury, Merchan asked the foreperson to confirm he read then right. The foreperson said, "Yes, you did."
Several jurors nodded as Merchan told them the parties are still working to compile the testimony they requested for the readback.
Merchan also gives them his daily instruction not to discuss the case with anyone.
Attorney Todd Blanche was leaning over and whispering to Donald Trump and attorney Emil Bove while they waited.
Quote:
Jurors are now leaving the courtroom after Judge Juan Merchan dismissed them for the day.
Merchan tells the attorneys they can't leave the courtroom until they agree on the transcript that will be read back tomorrow.
Quote:
Todd Blanche asks if Donald Trump can go across the hall while the lawyers work on finalizing the transcript for the jurors for the readback.
Judge Juan Merchan says that's OK, but that he can't leave the building.
The judge has left the bench.
The former president is leaning back in his chair with his arm on the back, gesturing as he talks to Blanche and his other attorney Emil Bove. Blanche is laughing.
He the leaves with his son, Don Jr.
55 pages of legal instructions, which a normal juror would have difficulty understanding. But it is even more so without access to the written pages.Im Gipper said:Well that is different than what we've been reading! Do you have the full instructions?Quote:
So it turns out, there is only one predicate crime. the state election law.
it requires "unlawful means" which can be the violation of tax law or federal election law.
Found them!
https://www.nycourts.gov/LegacyPDFS/press/PDFs/People%20v.%20DJT%20Jury%20Instructions%20and%20Charges%20FINAL%205-23-24.pdf
Today is the first time I have ever seen the word "accomplice" used to describe Cohen.Quote:
In addition, the instructions name Michael Cohen as guilty, and that his testimony can be used to convict an accomplice, if there is corroboration from other witnesses.
I've thought about that.MagnumLoad said:aggiehawg said:Don't expect SCOTUS to do anything regarding this case.KatyAggie2000 said:Wow. If that's the case can the SCOTUS not weigh in now and throw this thing out? Seems like there should be a judicial check and balance during a trial vs. after via appeal for this level of misconduct.Martin Cash said:
Just heard that the jury was not allowed to take the court's charge with them into the jury room.
That is absolutely insane. This is truly banana republic level.
And that is concerning. Trampling the Constitution should be adequate to weigh in.
Why do both sides have to agree to the transcript of the jury instructions. Sounds like a renegotiating of the jury instructions.aggiehawg said:Quote:
Jurors are now leaving the courtroom after Judge Juan Merchan dismissed them for the day.
Merchan tells the attorneys they can't leave the courtroom until they agree on the transcript that will be read back tomorrow.
I would think so, but IANAL.aggiehawg said:Today is the first time I have ever seen the word "accomplice" used to describe Cohen.Quote:
In addition, the instructions name Michael Cohen as guilty, and that his testimony can be used to convict an accomplice, if there is corroboration from other witnesses.
But if there was a conspiracy, wouldn't Pecker be an accomplice too?
Reading that it sounds like the jury wanted confirmation from Pecker's testimony that Cohen was telling the truth. Basically according to the instruction, they can't rely solely on Cohen's word and need Pecker's confirmation.VaultingChemist said:I would think so, but IANAL.aggiehawg said:Today is the first time I have ever seen the word "accomplice" used to describe Cohen.Quote:
In addition, the instructions name Michael Cohen as guilty, and that his testimony can be used to convict an accomplice, if there is corroboration from other witnesses.
But if there was a conspiracy, wouldn't Pecker be an accomplice too?
Here is a copy of the judge's instructions….
Quote:
Jurors' request to re-hear the judge's jury instructions indicates that the instructions "were way too much for any human being to absorb and make sense of," CNN legal analyst Elie Honig said.But ultimately, this jury request "underscores the craziness of not sending the jury instructions back," Honig said.Quote:
While it's unusual for juries to want to hear the whole set of instructions again, it is common for them to come back with a request to hear a much more specific part of instructions, Honig explained."It's the way that New York State courts do it. They are obstinate, they are stuck in the past, they are making life difficult for the jury," Honig added.Quote:
Judge Juan Merchan went through "50-something pages of legal instructions" this morning, Honig noted, adding that while most federal judges will send the actual document with the jury as it deliberates, New York State courts forbid this practice.
What a freakin' mess. Totally on the Judge.Quote:
It will take hours for the court to fulfill the jury's request to hear some parts of testimony again, one lawyer who used to work in the Manhattan District Attorney's office says.
The panel of 12 New Yorkers is working to determine whether Trump is guilty of 34 counts of falsifying business documents. They have asked to hear parts of David Pecker's testimony about some of his communications with Donald Trump and he and Michael Cohen's answers about a 2015 meeting at Trump Tower.
That means the court reporter has to go through the transcript and identify all of the instances that respond to the jury's note, according to Karen Friedman Agnifilo, a CNN legal analyst. That could be in multiple places, she said, both on direct or cross-examination.Agnifilo said the court reporter will be the one that reads back the transcripts and the judge's instructions, which was also requested by the jury.Quote:
"Then the parties are gonna have to agree that that's the only place in the transcripts that it exists and then it'll be read back to them," Agnifilo said, referring to lawyers on both sides.
The jury is expected to be back in court at 9:30 a.m. Thursday. They can continue to deliberate even while the court works on getting the transcripts ready, Agnifilo said, adding that it is possible that could happen tomorrow.
Again, I see this as an additional, almost unattainable burden for the state.aggiehawg said:Today is the first time I have ever seen the word "accomplice" used to describe Cohen.Quote:
In addition, the instructions name Michael Cohen as guilty, and that his testimony can be used to convict an accomplice, if there is corroboration from other witnesses.
But if there was a conspiracy, wouldn't Pecker be an accomplice too?
Aggie_2463 said:
I haven't been following this that closely, so forgive me for asking....
If he is found guilty, is he looking at jail time for an extended time?