So let's say Cohen "did it on his own." Should he not be prosecuted?

So the case could actually hang on the inflection the reader chooses to apply to the words as they are re-read aloud, and how jurist's emotionally interpret it?

didn't Pecker also testify that he'd run positive stories on Trump for years (before 2016) and squashed negative ones?

KatyAggie2000 said:

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FireAg said:

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Verdict yet?

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Nope. Now we've exceeded the OJ deliberation time. Lol.

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That was actually why I asked…the OJ litmus test…

Which…was a bad test because the belief was a jury coming back that quick meant guilty…oops…

General Jack D. Ripper said:

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So let's say Cohen "did it on his own." Should he not be prosecuted?

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He should be prosecuted for perjury and theft.

AtticusMatlock said:

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Casual Cynic said:

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So could they find Trump guilty of a misdemeanor? Wouldn't that be the same as an acquittal since the statute of limitations has run?

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Well no one got to see the actual instructions other than in media reports, but I don't there's a lesser included here.

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There's a link to them on page 149 of this thread.

won't this hold over for news cycle tonight and maximum effect tomorrow?

Texas velvet maestro said:

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won't this hold over for news cycle tonight and maximum effect tomorrow?

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They are supposed to stop deliberations for the night at 4:30 EST so only about 30 minutes more. Looks like this will go into tomorrow anyway

Another note is in: asking for a reread of instructions.

4stringAg said:

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didn't Pecker also testify that he'd run positive stories on Trump for years (before 2016) and squashed negative ones?

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Yes because positive stories about Trump sold much better than negative ones. It was beneficial to his business. He made money off of Trump. Pecker also said he wouldn't touch the Stormy story because porn stars don't sell papers.

aggiehawg said:

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Ellis Wyatt said:

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Tramp96 said:

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So whereas all the pundits and legal eagles have been saying that Michael Cohen is the key to the entire case by the prosecution, it appears to me that the jury is thinking Pecker is?

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Seems to me that they want to consider whether Pecker and Cohen's stories align.

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You may be correct. They dont' trust Cohen but looking for that corroboration that Merchan and Steinglass were talking about.

And I consider that not the best sign for Trump..

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Or they are thinking not guilty but want to make sure Pecker doesn't corroborate Cohen, maybe. Who knows.

4stringAg said:

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Texas velvet maestro said:

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won't this hold over for news cycle tonight and maximum effect tomorrow?

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They are supposed to stop deliberations for the night at 4:30 EST so only about 30 minutes more. Looks like this will go into tomorrow anyway

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They can also ask to stay late. But yeah, I think this easily goes into tomorrow.

aggiehawg said:

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KatyAggie2000 said:

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Martin Cash said:

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Just heard that the jury was not allowed to take the court's charge with them into the jury room.

That is absolutely insane. This is truly banana republic level.

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Wow. If that's the case can the SCOTUS not weigh in now and throw this thing out? Seems like there should be a judicial check and balance during a trial vs. after via appeal for this level of misconduct.

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Don't expect SCOTUS to do anything regarding this case.

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And that is concerning. Trampling the Constitution should be adequate to weigh in.

The note is "Marjorie Taylor Greene is in here and won't leave us the **** alone."

Texas velvet maestro said:

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won't this hold over for news cycle tonight and maximum effect tomorrow?

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I'm thinking verdict on Friday afternoon

Juries typically don't like to have it carried over into the next week and want to get it done before the weekend

Quote:

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Shortly after the jury sounded the buzzer for a second time, a court officer handed another sheet to each side.
"We did just receive another note," Judge Juan Merchan says.
"We the jury request to rehear the judge's instructions," the note reads.

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Quote:

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Defense attorney Todd Blanche whispered and smiled at Donald Trump after they got the note.

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Quote:

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Judge Juan Merchan is going to bring the jurors into the courtroom to inquire if they want all of the jury instructions heard or a portion of it.

Neither side objected.

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Quote:

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udge Juan Merchan says "if and when" a time comes for a verdict, he will bring the alternate jurors in and have them sit in the front row.

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Quote:

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The readback is estimated to take about 30 minutes, according to the court reporter.
Prosecutor Joshua Steinglass says the readback consists of about 30 pages.
Judge Juan Merchan asked if they can disable the WiFi capability on the laptop that the jury has. Prosecutor Susan Hoffinger said they'd look tonight and make sure it's off

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Quote:

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The jury is entering the courtroom.
Judge Juan Merchan is reading the notes into the record in their presence.
Attorney Todd Blanche was leaning over and whispering to Donald Trump and attorney Emil Bove while they waited.

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Judge dismisses the jury for the day and will take up the response to their questions tomorrow. It's after four there and he was going to dismiss them at 4:30 anyway.

Quote:

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The jury is entering the courtroom.
Judge Juan Merchan is reading the notes into the record in their presence.
After reading both notes from the jury, Merchan asked the foreperson to confirm he read then right. The foreperson said, "Yes, you did."
Several jurors nodded as Merchan told them the parties are still working to compile the testimony they requested for the readback.
Merchan also gives them his daily instruction not to discuss the case with anyone.
Attorney Todd Blanche was leaning over and whispering to Donald Trump and attorney Emil Bove while they waited.

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I don't see this going past midday tomorrow. The jury didn't request more testimony/evidence. They have requested the jury instructions. This leads me to believe they are unanimous or consider themselves hung and want to double check what that means. I think once the instructions are re-read, they go back and have a decision by early afternoon, latest.

Besides, Thursday afternoon is essentially a Friday to New Yorkers. They have to get that weekend started.

Quote:

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Jurors are now leaving the courtroom after Judge Juan Merchan dismissed them for the day.

Merchan tells the attorneys they can't leave the courtroom until they agree on the transcript that will be read back tomorrow.

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Quote:

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Todd Blanche asks if Donald Trump can go across the hall while the lawyers work on finalizing the transcript for the jurors for the readback.
Judge Juan Merchan says that's OK, but that he can't leave the building.
The judge has left the bench.
The former president is leaning back in his chair with his arm on the back, gesturing as he talks to Blanche and his other attorney Emil Bove. Blanche is laughing.
He the leaves with his son, Don Jr.

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Im Gipper said:

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Quote:

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So it turns out, there is only one predicate crime. the state election law.

it requires "unlawful means" which can be the violation of tax law or federal election law.

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Well that is different than what we've been reading! Do you have the full instructions?


Found them!


https://www.nycourts.gov/LegacyPDFS/press/PDFs/People%20v.%20DJT%20Jury%20Instructions%20and%20Charges%20FINAL%205-23-24.pdf

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55 pages of legal instructions, which a normal juror would have difficulty understanding. But it is even more so without access to the written pages.

In addition, the instructions name Michael Cohen as guilty, and that his testimony can be used to convict an accomplice, if there is corroboration from other witnesses.

Quote:

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In addition, the instructions name Michael Cohen as guilty, and that his testimony can be used to convict an accomplice, if there is corroboration from other witnesses.

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Today is the first time I have ever seen the word "accomplice" used to describe Cohen.

But if there was a conspiracy, wouldn't Pecker be an accomplice too?

MagnumLoad said:

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aggiehawg said:

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KatyAggie2000 said:

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Martin Cash said:

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Just heard that the jury was not allowed to take the court's charge with them into the jury room.

That is absolutely insane. This is truly banana republic level.

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Wow. If that's the case can the SCOTUS not weigh in now and throw this thing out? Seems like there should be a judicial check and balance during a trial vs. after via appeal for this level of misconduct.

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Don't expect SCOTUS to do anything regarding this case.

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And that is concerning. Trampling the Constitution should be adequate to weigh in.

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I've thought about that.

How egregious would this have to be for all nine justices to come forward with an order stating that for 221 years the Supreme Court has operated through the principle of Judicial Review, but this abuse of the judicial system -- civil and criminal, state and federal -- against a former president and/or vice president cannot stand?

Some establishment of a new principle such as Executive Writ of Certiorari in which any criminal or civil case against a president or vice president or legitimate candidate for said office requires a prior conviction in an impeachment by the Senate or for three of nine Supreme Court justices to sign off on it.

Such is the world Joe Biden and his minions have brought us.

And ultimately, that is their goal: to erode faith in the system until it can be completely destroyed. All the contortions and stretches made to treat this trial as normal and reasonable only serve to further the destruction of our legal system and eventually the Republic herself.

aggiehawg said:

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Quote:

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Jurors are now leaving the courtroom after Judge Juan Merchan dismissed them for the day.

Merchan tells the attorneys they can't leave the courtroom until they agree on the transcript that will be read back tomorrow.

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Why do both sides have to agree to the transcript of the jury instructions. Sounds like a renegotiating of the jury instructions.

Wouldn't Merchan be obligated to take the court reporter's record and re-read directly from the record?

aggiehawg said:

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Quote:

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In addition, the instructions name Michael Cohen as guilty, and that his testimony can be used to convict an accomplice, if there is corroboration from other witnesses.

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Today is the first time I have ever seen the word "accomplice" used to describe Cohen.

But if there was a conspiracy, wouldn't Pecker be an accomplice too?

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I would think so, but IANAL.

Here is a copy of the judge's instructions pertaining to Cohen as an accomplice….

I haven't been following this that closely, so forgive me for asking....

If he is found guilty, is he looking at jail time for an extended time?

VaultingChemist said:

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aggiehawg said:

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Quote:

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In addition, the instructions name Michael Cohen as guilty, and that his testimony can be used to convict an accomplice, if there is corroboration from other witnesses.

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Today is the first time I have ever seen the word "accomplice" used to describe Cohen.

But if there was a conspiracy, wouldn't Pecker be an accomplice too?

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I would think so, but IANAL.

Here is a copy of the judge's instructions….

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Reading that it sounds like the jury wanted confirmation from Pecker's testimony that Cohen was telling the truth. Basically according to the instruction, they can't rely solely on Cohen's word and need Pecker's confirmation.

If that's the case, it wouldn't seem very good for Trump because they are already essentially to the point of believing Cohen, just need Peckers testimony to corroborate to satisfy their desire to convict.

Quote:

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Jurors' request to re-hear the judge's jury instructions indicates that the instructions "were way too much for any human being to absorb and make sense of," CNN legal analyst Elie Honig said.

Quote:

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While it's unusual for juries to want to hear the whole set of instructions again, it is common for them to come back with a request to hear a much more specific part of instructions, Honig explained.

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But ultimately, this jury request "underscores the craziness of not sending the jury instructions back," Honig said.

Quote:

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Judge Juan Merchan went through "50-something pages of legal instructions" this morning, Honig noted, adding that while most federal judges will send the actual document with the jury as it deliberates, New York State courts forbid this practice.

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"It's the way that New York State courts do it. They are obstinate, they are stuck in the past, they are making life difficult for the jury," Honig added.

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Quote:

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It will take hours for the court to fulfill the jury's request to hear some parts of testimony again, one lawyer who used to work in the Manhattan District Attorney's office says.

The panel of 12 New Yorkers is working to determine whether Trump is guilty of 34 counts of falsifying business documents. They have asked to hear parts of David Pecker's testimony about some of his communications with Donald Trump and he and Michael Cohen's answers about a 2015 meeting at Trump Tower.

That means the court reporter has to go through the transcript and identify all of the instances that respond to the jury's note, according to Karen Friedman Agnifilo, a CNN legal analyst. That could be in multiple places, she said, both on direct or cross-examination.

Quote:

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"Then the parties are gonna have to agree that that's the only place in the transcripts that it exists and then it'll be read back to them," Agnifilo said, referring to lawyers on both sides.

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Agnifilo said the court reporter will be the one that reads back the transcripts and the judge's instructions, which was also requested by the jury.

The jury is expected to be back in court at 9:30 a.m. Thursday. They can continue to deliberate even while the court works on getting the transcripts ready, Agnifilo said, adding that it is possible that could happen tomorrow.

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What a freakin' mess. Totally on the Judge.

aggiehawg said:

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Quote:

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In addition, the instructions name Michael Cohen as guilty, and that his testimony can be used to convict an accomplice, if there is corroboration from other witnesses.

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Today is the first time I have ever seen the word "accomplice" used to describe Cohen.

But if there was a conspiracy, wouldn't Pecker be an accomplice too?

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Again, I see this as an additional, almost unattainable burden for the state.

Cohen was Trump's attorney. For him to be an "accomplice" he would have had to advised Trump that the actions were illegal, but that he recommended that Trump go ahead with them anyway.

Nothing short of a written letter by Cohen to Trump advising that the proposed course of action was illegal, and a signature by Trump on the letter that he acknowledged the illegality but recommended continuance of action would convince me that Trump KNEW the actions were illegal.

Hell, I've followed this trial, and I still don't think anything was illegal. Much less that Trump's actions WERE illegal, AND he knew that they were illegal.

If this conviction goes through. I don't think I will EVER travel to New York. Just too much risk in doing so.

Aggie_2463 said:

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I haven't been following this that closely, so forgive me for asking....

If he is found guilty, is he looking at jail time for an extended time?

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In theory, yes. But he won't be spending any time in jail. I'd bet money on it.